Paris terror attacks on Friday 13th

2cents said:
I can't speak for Mihajlovic but since I raised the topic I'll answer.

I was, in fact, trying to make the opposite point, while at the same time seeing if you could hold a consistent stance.

My point was that any narrative of a clash of civilizations, of 'Islam vs. The West' or whatever shouldn't be accepted or go unchallenged even though one particular group (European Christians 1,000 years ago, many Muslims today) believe there to be a string of reasons proving it to be true.

There are many factors which undermine or complicate the Crusader notion of an Islamic war on Christianity. Similarly, the idea that the West is today at war against Islam doesn't hold up. To take three examples:

1. Many Middle Eastern and North African Christians were quite happy to exchange Byzantine rule for that of the Muslims, as they found the latter generally more tolerant of their diverse beliefs.

Likewise today, many Muslims find a much greater degree of religious freedom in the West then they do in predominantly Muslim countries.

2. During the Crusades and after, many Muslim states were willing, time and again, to ally with Christians against their Muslim rivals.

Likewise today you get many Western or Christian states sometimes ready to support Muslims against others (e.g. Bosnian and Kosovan Muslims vs. Serbs, or Pakistan vs. India and by extension the Soviets).

3. The Crusaders' 'defense' of the Holy Land involved the slaughter of Jews and other minority Christian sects they deemed deviant.

Likewise, jihadists' 'defense' of Islam today involves the targeting mostly of other Muslims.

The idea that Islam and the West are locked in some kind of inevitable perpetual conflict is among the most dangerous notion floating about these days. It shouldn't be accepted with a shrug of the shoulder and a "what do you expect?" attitude, rather those on both 'sides' who subscribe to it need to be challenged constantly.
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I don´t think anybody is locked into any perpetual conflict notion between Islam and the West and the whole crusaders gobbledygook. I think it boils down to massive resentment in the middle east towards the west, and in particular against the US, and "Islam" has become a rallying point in these third world nations, much the way "communism" was 40 to 50 years ago. It´s a sign of protest against the West and its social/economic meddling and all the military and political/economical baggage that inevitably accompanies it. This is not rocket science. It´s classical blowback. No one should be surprised. And no one should condone it in the form of what happened in Paris or 9/11 etc. It must be contained, and especially the funding of it must be identified and dealt with.

And the "West" must seriously do their part in dealing with its own self interest in the mid east that unfortunately is manifesting itself in such an aggressive military manner, and who seem they think they own the meaning of "terrorism," while justifying in their own minds the use of brutal force against a foreign people. What happened in Paris is a minuscule fraction of the devastation of what happened in the invasion of Iraq. I think it´s fair to say previous western meddling in Iran is a root cause of the fundamentalist Islamic manifestation of what was once one of the most westernised, progressive Islamic nations. Again, this is not rocket science.
 
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Sir Matt said:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34877800

They found another body in the apartment that was raided.
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nyp_story-620x412.jpg
 
There is another dimension to this awful story that has little to do with justice, religion or even ideology. It is the story of Captagon (a brand name for Fenethylline, a souped-up amphetamine). The Washington Post describes the effects of this pill; 'it allows fighters to stay up for days, killing with a numb, reckless abandon'. It is manufactured in Syria, is chiefly the drug of choice of Isis.

Captagon (and some other drugs, probably: at one of the safe houses syringes were found by police) puts a possible other twist on the strange story of Abdesalam Salah. There are a large number of instances of family members being recruited and often surviving their more fanatical siblings or cousins. It might apply in the case of Hasna Aït Boulahcen; right at the end she didn't blow herself up, and is heard crying 'help me, help me, I'm on fire'. The rumours of Abdesalam phoning friends in Belgium to take him home at 10.40 on the night of his attacks, apparently having not completed his mission (or apparently, worn his explosive vest) is suggestive of someone (as well as perhaps being influenced by fear or remorse) coming down off amphetamines. At least three of the Paris attackers (I think) committed suicide without killing anyone. A witness who saw the Bataclan attackers before the attack described them as 'looking drugged'. All of this suddenly makes sense of petty criminals and drug dealers suddenly radicalised. The high speed train attacker, weak malnourished and incoherent. Failed rappers committing unspeakable atrocities in the desert. Inconsequential people rendered powerful and influential in their own circles. It shows the evil character of the recruiters and brothers and cousins who seek to addict their own flesh and blood to a kill-drug. I think we might be hearing more about Captagon.

WP Story here: https://goo.gl/dQQAfl
 
Regarding the flag issue on Facebook, why don't they just have all the flags in the world available?

Easy solve.
 
Tincanalley said:
There is another dimension to this awful story that has little to do with justice, religion or even ideology. It is the story of Captagon (a brand name for Fenethylline, a souped-up amphetamine). The Washington Post describes the effects of this pill; 'it allows fighters to stay up for days, killing with a numb, reckless abandon'. It is manufactured in Syria, is chiefly the drug of choice of Isis.

Captagon (and some other drugs, probably: at one of the safe houses syringes were found by police) puts a possible other twist on the strange story of Abdesalam Salah. There are a large number of instances of family members being recruited and often surviving their more fanatical siblings or cousins. It might apply in the case of Hasna Aït Boulahcen; right at the end she didn't blow herself up, and is heard crying 'help me, help me, I'm on fire'. The rumours of Abdesalam phoning friends in Belgium to take him home at 10.40 on the night of his attacks, apparently having not completed his mission (or apparently, worn his explosive vest) is suggestive of someone (as well as perhaps being influenced by fear or remorse) coming down off amphetamines. At least three of the Paris attackers (I think) committed suicide without killing anyone. A witness who saw the Bataclan attackers before the attack described them as 'looking drugged'. All of this suddenly makes sense of petty criminals and drug dealers suddenly radicalised. The high speed train attacker, weak malnourished and incoherent. Failed rappers committing unspeakable atrocities in the desert. Inconsequential people rendered powerful and influential in their own circles. It shows the evil character of the recruiters and brothers and cousins who seek to addict their own flesh and blood to a kill-drug. I think we might be hearing more about Captagon.

WP Story here: https://goo.gl/dQQAfl
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Very interesting considering the profiles and stories that've been coming out in recent days. Does make a lot of sense, the "old-school" extremists seemed to have a much lengthier dedication to the cause before going off to do the nastiest of fighting and attacks. Just won't give it 100% credit because it has some urban legend aspects, although the WP article is decently researched.
 
Brussel has raised its threat-level from 3 to 4, the highest possible. Looks like they got some very serious information about a possible attack.
 
VorZakone said:
Brussel has raised its threat-level from 3 to 4, the highest possible. Looks like they got some very serious information about a possible attack.
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Yep, an arsenal of explosive and chemicals found.

Arsenal of explosives and chemicals discovered in Molenbeek
Dernier Heure reports that an "arsenal" including explosives and chemicals has been discovered in Molenbeek, writes Matthew Holehouse.

The threat level was raised to 4 over night, the highest level, after an assessment by Coordination Unit for Threat Analysis (OCAM), meaning a threat is "serious and imminent".

Football matches in the first and second division, and lectures and events hosted by the Free University Brussels, have been cancelled.

A major music festival planned for today is also off, as is a concert by Jonny Halliday scheduled for tonight at Heysel. Galeries Inno, the shopping centre, is shut.
 
Pretty much all public life in Brussels is shut down this weekend. Events canceled, shops closed, city flooded with military personel, they're serious about this. They're also planning to search each and every house in Molenbeek. I feel sorry for all the innocent residents there, must be a terrible time for them.
 
Ainu said:
Pretty much all public life in Brussels is shut down this weekend. Events canceled, shops closed, city flooded with military personel, they're serious about this. They're also planning to search each and every house in Molenbeek. I feel sorry for all the innocent residents there, must be a terrible time for them.
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will be pleased down to the ground if their neighborhood is cleaned up.
 
I wonder how long Brussels are planning on doing this. Flying to Zaventem a few days before christmas, safe to say not looking forward to it.
 
Ainu said:
Should only be a couple of days, this level of security can't be sustained for much langer.
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Seeing as you are from Antwerp, what's the situation like there if I may ask? Grew up in a town called Londerzeel myself, which is right between Antwerp and Brussels, not far from Boom, Wolvertem.
 
El-Manos said:
Seeing as you are from Antwerp, what's the situation like there if I may ask? Grew up in a town called Londerzeel myself, which is right between Antwerp and Brussels, not far from Boom, Wolvertem.
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Outside of a bunch of false bomb threats the past week (what the feck is wrong with these "pranksters"?), it's business as usual over here. Not even noticed an increased police presence or anything, but then again I haven't been to the Central Station or the Grote Markt. Perhaps it's different there. All in all, just feels like a normal day, fortunately. I guess that could easily change though.
 
shivab said:
Let's not generalize and label an entire faith because of a few bad apples.
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Kakeru said:
No, but it's not too much asked for the majority in a particular religious/cultural group to start hauling their asses and get rid of the bad apples with more aplomb on the other hand.
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Wolverine said:


"why is it that no one in the Muslim community in France there knew what these guys were up to?"

"the word responsibility comes to mind, you can't shirk that"

Moderate Muslims are indeed blamed for the actions for extremists. The new atheists fanboys and Bill Maher refer to liberals who don't follow their point of view on geopolitics as "regressives" and "apologists" and say that the beliefs shared by the majority of muslims creates an environment where terrorism emerges from. Personally I believe there is some truth in that although many make this point with hyperbole, falsehoods, and outright bigotry at times.

We also know that the terrorist mastermind in France did not attend mosque, according to his family so how on earth the muslim "community" were supposed to know what these guys were up to is beyond me.
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That kind of brain-dead narrative reminds me of this article:

Muslim man in Northampton asked what he's doing about ISIS
 
Tincanalley said:
There is another dimension to this awful story that has little to do with justice, religion or even ideology. It is the story of Captagon (a brand name for Fenethylline, a souped-up amphetamine). The Washington Post describes the effects of this pill; 'it allows fighters to stay up for days, killing with a numb, reckless abandon'. It is manufactured in Syria, is chiefly the drug of choice of Isis.

Captagon (and some other drugs, probably: at one of the safe houses syringes were found by police) puts a possible other twist on the strange story of Abdesalam Salah. There are a large number of instances of family members being recruited and often surviving their more fanatical siblings or cousins. It might apply in the case of Hasna Aït Boulahcen; right at the end she didn't blow herself up, and is heard crying 'help me, help me, I'm on fire'. The rumours of Abdesalam phoning friends in Belgium to take him home at 10.40 on the night of his attacks, apparently having not completed his mission (or apparently, worn his explosive vest) is suggestive of someone (as well as perhaps being influenced by fear or remorse) coming down off amphetamines. At least three of the Paris attackers (I think) committed suicide without killing anyone. A witness who saw the Bataclan attackers before the attack described them as 'looking drugged'. All of this suddenly makes sense of petty criminals and drug dealers suddenly radicalised. The high speed train attacker, weak malnourished and incoherent. Failed rappers committing unspeakable atrocities in the desert. Inconsequential people rendered powerful and influential in their own circles. It shows the evil character of the recruiters and brothers and cousins who seek to addict their own flesh and blood to a kill-drug. I think we might be hearing more about Captagon.

WP Story here: https://goo.gl/dQQAfl
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That's quite interesting.
 
I'm off to Amsterdam in a few weeks, I've not heard much about a terrorist threat in the Netherlands, but the fact it's a neighbouring country to Belgium has me worried.

We've also had to cancel my daughters school trip to Belgium, we'd only put the deposit down the week before the Paris attacks and whilst the school are still confident the trip will go ahead, parents have rightly been allowed their deposits back. Amazingly they aren't currently considering changing the school trips destination.
 
Devil81 said:
I'm off to Amsterdam in a few weeks, I've not heard much about a terrorist threat in the Netherlands, but the fact it's a neighbouring country to Belgium has me worried.

We've also had to cancel my daughters school trip to Belgium, we'd only put the deposit down the week before the Paris attacks and whilst the school are still confident the trip will go ahead, parents have rightly been allowed their deposits back. Amazingly they aren't currently considering changing the school trips destination.
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I completely understand your feeling and the fact that you'd rather not send your kid to Brussels at this moment.

That said, I think they're really exaggerating at the moment. And with 'they', I mean the (foreign) media and probably also our government. I don't have all the information and all the facts that the government has of course, so that last thought is a bit premature perhaps, but Brussels did not suddenly become a place where terrorist attacks are rife. It's not more unsafe than it was in the past 10 years. And not more unsafe than any other big European city I think. In fact, Brussels has seen exactly one attack in the past ten years or something (the attack on a Jewish museum by a gunman). Less than other big cities in Europe afaik.

I went to Brussels twice the past week and didn't see or feel anything different about the city than usual. At the moment, I wouldn't advise a trip to Brussels of course. Not because of the possible danger, but because there's nothing to do at the moment anyway. All events, concerts, markets, etc are cancelled. All subway stations, museums, shopping centers are closed, everyone is being advised to avoid busy places, etc.

I'm sure you don't have anything to worry about in Amsterdam by the way. At least not more than any other place in Europe.
 
I've got a friend in Amsterdam at the moment who's due to get the Eurostar back from Brussels tomorrow - should there be any real reason for concern?
 
Devil81 said:
I'm off to Amsterdam in a few weeks, I've not heard much about a terrorist threat in the Netherlands, but the fact it's a neighbouring country to Belgium has me worried.

We've also had to cancel my daughters school trip to Belgium, we'd only put the deposit down the week before the Paris attacks and whilst the school are still confident the trip will go ahead, parents have rightly been allowed their deposits back. Amazingly they aren't currently considering changing the school trips destination.
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I don't blame you at all for being cautious. If I had a school-age child, I wouldn't want them to go to any big city without me at the moment. I'm sure the teachers will be very vigilant, but it's not the same as being there yourself.
 
Brwned said:
I've got a friend in Amsterdam at the moment who's due to get the Eurostar back from Brussels tomorrow - should there be any real reason for concern?
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The security measures have never been as rigorous as they are now. Even the army is patrolling all over Brussels at the moment. So I'm sure it'll be fine.

Just tell him/her to be well on time at the station, since there might be extra security checks. Also, the subways are still closed at the moment, so getting there could be difficult.
Although our minister of Justice just declared that he expects all public transport to be operational again tomorrow. Normal life in Brussels should resume again tomorrow morning.
 
Brwned said:
I've got a friend in Amsterdam at the moment who's due to get the Eurostar back from Brussels tomorrow - should there be any real reason for concern?
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Apparently the government decided to maintain threat level 4, meaning that the subway stations will remain closed tomorrow.
 
According to Anonymous one of the next targets in Paris was a techno event at Concrete.
A club I've been wanting to go to for ages. :(

Is there a need for armed security at any event in major cities? Something the military could be put to good use for?
 
King_Eric said:
Apparently the government decided to maintain threat level 4, meaning that the subway stations will remain closed tomorrow.
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Are subway stations seperate from tube stations (in the way London tube stations are separate from national rail train stations) or all they all part of the same system? If the former, and it just means it's harder getting around within Bruges then I don't see extra walking being an issue, but if it's the latter then I'll let them know straight away!
 
Brwned said:
Are subway stations seperate from tube stations (in the way London tube stations are separate from national rail train stations) or all they all part of the same system? If the former, and it just means it's harder getting around within Bruges then I don't see extra walking being an issue, but if it's the latter then I'll let them know straight away!
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I'm not sure what you mean (aren't subway and tube the same thing?) but your friend shouldn't have an issue. You mentioned he's in Amsterdam so assuming he travels to Brussels by train first, he should arrive in the same station as where the Eurostar departs, so no need to get around within the city.
 
Ainu said:
I'm not sure what you mean (aren't subway and tube the same thing?) but your friend shouldn't have an issue. You mentioned he's in Amsterdam so assuming he travels to Brussels by train first, he should arrive in the same station as where the Eurostar departs, so no need to get around within the city.
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I don't think that's the case. Train to Amsterdam is usually from/to Gare du Nord IIRC while the Eurostar is in Gare du Midi. But it's easy enough getting a train between them, or a cab shouldn't be too expensive too as they're fairly close ~10 euros maybe.

Friend just posted no metro, school or university tomorrow - so Brussels still in lockdown. Always something this time of year - there were massive strikes last year and I remember having to walk to work in the freezing cold.
 
Skills said:
I don't think that's the case. Train to Amsterdam is usually from/to Gare du Nord IIRC while the Eurostar is in Gare du Midi. But it's easy enough getting a train between them, or a cab shouldn't be too expensive too as they're fairly close ~10 euros maybe.

Friend just posted no metro, school or university tomorrow - so Brussels still in lockdown. Always something this time of year - there were massive strikes last year and I remember having to walk to work in the freezing cold.
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Usually these trains do a couple of stops in the city, starting with the North station, Central and ending in Midi. At least it was like that when I used to ride it frequently, but that's nearly 10 years ago so it might've changed. But it seems weird that it would've, the North station is a bit of a shit hole and not a worthy terminal stop for a train coming from Amsterdam. :D
 
Ainu said:
I'm not sure what you mean (aren't subway and tube the same thing?) but your friend shouldn't have an issue. You mentioned he's in Amsterdam so assuming he travels to Brussels by train first, he should arrive in the same station as where the Eurostar departs, so no need to get around within the city.
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Ah, my bad. I meant to ask are subway stations separate from train stations, in the same way tube stations are separate from train stations. You've answered my question for me anyway - thanks!
 
Brwned said:
Ah, my bad. I meant to ask are subway stations separate from train stations, in the same way tube stations are separate from train stations. You've answered my question for me anyway - thanks!
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Ah, I thought you meant that your friend was already in Brussels and has to travel to Amsterdam.
If he's traveling from Amsterdam to the UK and has to change in Brussels, he shouldn't have any problem indeed. Train stations will operate as usual.
 
There's something going on in Brussels at the moment. Police have blocked a section of the centre from all traffic and are advising people around the Grand Place to stay indoors. Some tweets from hotel guests in the Radisson Blu, saying they weren't allowed to leave, were posted earlier. Now the police is asking for silence on Social Media concerning their movements.

 
They've ordered a news blackout in Brussels right now.
 
The downside of social media - anybody can post anything, and they do - specifically about where the police are mounting an operation. Way to alert a hiding terrorist about whether they are in danger or not.

It reminds me of some of the scenes from Paris last weekend/week and particularly the one where the police where being tailed by hoardes of cameramen as they moved in on I think it was a church. It's ridiculous what the media HAS to show us.
 
Operations in Brussels over with a press conference to come this evening according to the BBC.
 
Now local stations reporting operations also taking place in Charleroi. Surprised it's taken so long for that shitehole to be looked at.
 
Apparently many arrests were made in Brussels tonight.

One operation was focused on the residence of an Abdeslam family member.
 
Media are reporting 2 to 6 terrorists have been arrested. Not sure how accurate the information is though. And whether they're really terrorists or just people from Abdeslam's environment.

The Paris terrorist that was still on the run, Salah Abdeslam, is reported to have escaped in Liege and would be on the run in the direction of Germany...

A press conference will be given at 00h30 Belgian time (23h30 UK time)
 
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