Pakistan

[oneniltothearsenal]

Bullshit. People want security, they want freedom, they want prosperity. Anyone who delivers that is a success. Chinese people are happy as communists because they're successful as communists.

Pakistani people repeatedly chose parliamentary democracy as a way of governance, not as a way of life or an ideology. Read our constitution.

I'm not some closet Al queda rambling for my Caliphate or some BS like that, in our constitution it states the law or the Quran and sunnah are supreme and no law shall be passed in contradiction to it.

Pakistan wants good governance so it can be safe, prosperous and free. If that is delivered by democracy, a king, a dictator, communism, some new alternative... Nobody cares.

I wouldn't say no one cares, people do care. Minorities that end up getting crushed under illiberal societies certainly care.

But the bolded comment does highlight how dictators get into power. In many cases they are populists. Look at the language of Trump or Putin or Mao or dozens more. They are all illiberal populists. This is why certain liberal institutions are probably necessary before a fair and functional democracy can occur. For instance courts that enforce contract law between private parties are necessary to prevent might makes right procedures from becoming the norm. Also why public education is important to increase the percentage of people in the population that look deeper than bread and circus issues.

 

[Varun]

Shadi keeps you busy bro warna you would be posting like crazy

Nahi nahi, I still post. Just avoid the CE.

I'm a Pakistani passport holder and a voter (albeit by proxy). I'm not telling you my personal opinion, but my opinion of the political climate based on the history of Pakistan and its society.

Don't try to pretend that what I'm telling you isn't relevant. This is a country where the supremity of the Islamic faith is built into the constitution.

This is a country that has had sweets distributed on the sweets to welcome military dictators, and blood shed to expel them. People have marched for religious freedom and for bigotry. People have marched in the support of Islam time and time again and people have fought and died against Islamic extremism. We fought communism whilst embracing communists and having communist political parties.

Attempts to paint us all as either coconuts or Al queda are not going to fly. We have a vibrant political diversity.

If people are going to comment on our politics at least research it. People are genuinely shocked that Pakistan puts religion ahead of a type of governance.

I've no idea where and how you got all that from from my post? The simple bit that piqued my curiosity was whether you were living in Pakistan given you were happy to trade/compromise democracy for religion or watching from afar.

I have 0 interest in discussing Indian politics, let alone Pakistans and religion as an idea doesnt appeal to me at all.

I pray to god, I drink alcohol and I eat beef. I pray to him even more when I need help. My simple assumption is that if there really is a higher power, he'd be someone above all this and wouldnt judge me. If not, he's just one of us in which case I wouldnt get my hopes up anyway.

Anyway, I digress from the topic.

 

[Zlatattack]

Amongst all this bitching a valuable point was lost. A senior political role has been given to a member of a largely persecuted minority. Its great news for him and the wider community.

6 months ago we had members of government speaking against this community in Parliament of all places in the hope that the bigots on the religious right would rally with them against the corruption charges they faced.

Long may it continue. PTI will be challenging a lot of ills in Pakistan and I hope minority rights is something they work extra hard on. A society is only as strong as the weakest amongst them.

 

[MJJ]

Nahi nahi, I still post. Just avoid the CE.

I've no idea where and how you got all that from from my post? The simple bit that piqued my curiosity was whether you were living in Pakistan given you were happy to trade/compromise democracy for religion or watching from afar.

I have 0 interest in discussing Indian politics, let alone Pakistans and religion as an idea doesnt appeal to me at all.

I pray to god, I drink alcohol and I eat beef. I pray to him even more when I need help. My simple assumption is that if there really is a higher power, he'd be someone above all this and wouldnt judge me. If not, he's just one of us in which case I wouldnt get my hopes up anyway.

Anyway, I digress from the topic.

Thats probably a good decision. To think all this started because I posted Imran Khan had appointed an ahmadi guy.

 

[Wengerscoat]

As usual any criticism of Pakistan always results in an immediate, irrelevant whataboutery in India. The obsession is staggering.

For what it's worth, almost to a man, every Indian on here is anti-Modi.

Your TV channels flare about any news when it comes to Pakistan, droves of Indians troll over any big Pakistani forum, comment zones in Pakistani news websites, even on Redcafe here , your politicians bag votes by talking trash about Pakistan (yet the only anti-India party in Pakistan, India's bogey man Saeed won zero seats) and Pakistanis are the ones obsessed.

 

[Wengerscoat]

Also this 'aid' that's been cut isn't aid, its the money owed to us by the Americans for using our fuel, our roads, our infrastructure for their war in Afghanistan.

 

[africanspur]

Yeah I dont think vida is one and Hitchez himself said he isnt.

I was dismissing him being a bigot but have explicitly stated that its sad that he has to be politically correct about this. Thats why I first posted in this thread as was happy he had elected an Ahmahdi to his economic council.

And that is completely fair enough. Like I said, I hope that he is as successful for Pakistan as so many Pakistanis hope he will be. God knows Pakistan needs it and the whole region would be so much better off with a stronger Pakistan and a Pakistan which gets on well with its neighbours.

 

[VP]

Your TV channels flare about any news when it comes to Pakistan, droves of Indians troll over any big Pakistani forum, comment zones in Pakistani news websites, even on Redcafe here , your politicians bag votes by talking trash about Pakistan (yet the only anti-India party in Pakistan, India's bogey man Saeed won zero seats) and Pakistanis are the ones obsessed.

You watch our news channels to measure our levels of obsession? India has 400m+ internet users; Pakistan has 40m - that alone addresses the internet point.

'bogey man Saeed' - are you fecking serious? You seem close to dismissing a terrorist as harmless.

 

[africanspur]

If we didn't fit the legal definition, then that would be fine. The downgrading bit is unfair. Legally nobody is downgraded in Pakistan (but practically they are which I oppose 100%).

The Islamic identity thing is about a legal definition. Personally I'm happy to see it go. It's only served to undermine a section of society. It could be argued that was never the intention but it is what has happened.

Before anyone has a religion they are created human. Religion is intended to serve humanity. Where it takes us away from humanity, we're doing it wrong.

No I'm sorry, it wouldn't be fine. At all. Legally, ahmadis being told by the constitution that they cannot practice their religion as they so wish is downgrading. Its a bit more than just the inability to call themselves Muslims and it obviously manifests itself as something so much worse.

I think instantly any time in which takfeer is invoked is a terrible thing and leads to a dark path. There would likely be many Muslims who consider you got example to not be a real Muslim. They will find something they don't like and say you shouldn't be allowed to call yourself a Muslim. Half of my wife's family are Muslims and one of her relatives is exactly like this.

As for who should decide whether ahmadis are Muslims or not, I would say that if you genuinely believe in an almighty God, then they should be the one who decides when it comes down to it. Not Khan, not Zia, not some random Pakistanis mullahs and not a random assortment of posters on redcafe. Why is there such an obsession with who can label themselves what?

You've said a few times it is because of how seriously you take the religion. How exactly does an ahmadi calling themselves a Muslim, doing everything a Muslim does but not believing that mohammed is the last prophet impact on your life, including your religious life, in any way?

 

[africanspur]

To those accusing me and Imran Khan of bigotry I ask...

If I was a jew and I accepted jesus as the messiah, am I still a jew or a Christian?

If I'm a Christian and I accepted Muhammad (pbuh) as gods final prophet am I still a Christian or a Muslim?

There are messianic Jews and there are Mormons and jehovahs witnesses and many other niche branches of the Abraham ox religions.

Other than a few extreme American Christians I met a few years ago, I've never met any Christians who were that bothered by what Mormons call themselves.

Why does it even bother you?

 

[Wengerscoat]

You watch our news channels to measure our levels of obsession? India has 400m+ internet users; Pakistan has 40m - that alone addresses the internet point.

'bogey man Saeed' - are you fecking serious? You seem close to dismissing a terrorist as harmless.

I watch the general internet for obsession. Every Pakistani forum is overrun by Indians, it borders on ridiculous. I have managed two forums, our main work was dealing with racist Indian trolls. Who would come on Pakistani forums to tell us we're obsessed about them. I mean go to PakPassion, Pakdefence and you'd get my point. And amazingly those places still allow Indian Moderators. I was on ICF, an Indian forum, once. My post count was what, 4? I logged in after a year with a message banning me when a new admin team came in, 'Bye bye Porki' . So, the obsession is pretty one sided.

As for Saeed, Indians say he's a terrorist. For me that statement is worth as much as toilet paper. I had never even heard of him until a year ago and that was only because of Indians. Who also claimed he was some next coming of God when it came to our elections, yet he won zero seats and got trounced everywhere. Saying that, I am secular myself and I'd ban him and his ilk if I was incharge.

 

[2cents]

I think instantly any time in which takfeer is invoked is a terrible thing and leads to a dark path. There would likely be many Muslims who consider you got example to not be a real Muslim. They will find something they don't like and say you shouldn't be allowed to call yourself a Muslim

This is what happened in Pakistan after the anti-Ahmadi legislation was introduced in the mid-70s. Many of the activists involved in that campaign moved on to other targets afterwards. So you had the formation of a group like the Sipah-e Sahaba who decided the Shi'a are non-Muslim and thus fair game. The 80s and 90s were full of Sunni-Shi'a violence. And more recently you have the TTP targeting Barelvi places of worship due to perceived shirk. Once that genie is out of the bottle it's extremely hard to control.

 

[Zlatattack]

There are messianic Jews and there are Mormons and jehovahs witnesses and many other niche branches of the Abraham ox religions.

Other than a few extreme American Christians I met a few years ago, I've never met any Christians who were that bothered by what Mormons call themselves.

Why does it even bother you?

Personally it doesn't.

 

[fishfingers15]

There's a lot more common to someone like Zlatattack and Modi than some of the posters arguing against. The mental gymnastics that we play when it comes to defending an idea or a person that we favor is rather astounding .

 

[MJJ]

There's a lot more common to someone like Zlatattack and Modi than some of the posters arguing against. The mental gymnastics that we play when it comes to defending an idea or a person that we favor is rather astounding .

C'mon fishy thats not even remotely true.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Don't be so mind boggled. Pakistani society has accepted and even welcomed military rule at times because democracy in Pakistan was so corrupt an inept. Try challenging Islam in Pakistan and see how long you stay in power. In Pakistan Islam will always come ahead of politics. Its what we created a separate state upon, religious identity.
What's so hard to grasp about that.

You realize it's a vision doomed to fail. Any country based on religion is eventually doomed to implode.

Church tried that and it was called Dark Ages.

Religion has and should have no part in governance. Anything else is precursor to failure.

 

[fishfingers15]

C'mon fishy thats not even remotely true.

There's nothing wrong with being religious. I'm one myself, I ensure at least a 50-week attendance at church. I sing in two choirs, make my time available for church, choir and look for a Christian education for my daughter. The one thing that I've realized after discourse with friends and people from the internet is that I'm not an impartial person I thought I was. I tend to always sway towards a Christian-centric solution to any problem I've faced. I just hope that some of the posters in this thread realize that they are deeply motivated by religion while they argue as if they are bastions of middle ground.

Modi and Zlatattack are not far apart, both argue that their religious laws in their country has nothing to do with prejudice against minorities, but the way of life. Hindutva for Modi and Islam for Zlatattack. For that matter, I'm not too sure of you too, nowadays. I would laugh at the irony if it isn't so funny.

FWIW, I have no idea on the ground realities of politics in Pakistan but listening to Imran Khan, his views are definitely that of a bigot. I would be extremely circumspect to call Modi a bigot while giving a 'politics bro' excuse to Imran Khan. But then, I would also think twice before posting something like 'Oh you look at Kerala first', trivializing a human disaster for cheap point scoring. Then again, I wouldn't be smug about posting this myself because I'm fairly certain my post is going to rile up some other person to start another argument.

Taking a nihilistic point of view, I'm just going to not reply.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

FWIW, I have no idea on the ground realities of politics in Pakistan but listening to Imran Khan, his views are definitely that of a bigot.

I'd refrain from labeling, but he's still the best of the lot.

 

[Zlatattack]

There's a lot more common to someone like Zlatattack and Modi than some of the posters arguing against. The mental gymnastics that we play when it comes to defending an idea or a person that we favor is rather astounding .

You're comparing me to someone who oversaw Genocide?

 

[MDFC Manager]

So, the obsession is pretty one sided.

That's for the early morning laughs

 

[KM]

@Wengerscoat The US has placed a 10m bounty on Hafiz Saeed. Just because you're ignorant or choose to turn a blind eye towards his actions doesn't mean he isn't a terrorist.

 

[MJJ]

There's nothing wrong with being religious. I'm one myself, I ensure at least a 50-week attendance at church. I sing in two choirs, make my time available for church, choir and look for a Christian education for my daughter. The one thing that I've realized after discourse with friends and people from the internet is that I'm not an impartial person I thought I was. I tend to always sway towards a Christian-centric solution to any problem I've faced. I just hope that some of the posters in this thread realize that they are deeply motivated by religion while they argue as if they are bastions of middle ground.

Modi and Zlatattack are not far apart, both argue that their religious laws in their country has nothing to do with prejudice against minorities, but the way of life. Hindutva for Modi and Islam for Zlatattack. For that matter, I'm not too sure of you too, nowadays. I would laugh at the irony if it isn't so funny.

FWIW, I have no idea on the ground realities of politics in Pakistan but listening to Imran Khan, his views are definitely that of a bigot. I would be extremely circumspect to call Modi a bigot while giving a 'politics bro' excuse to Imran Khan. But then, I would also think twice before posting something like 'Oh you look at Kerala first', trivializing a human disaster for cheap point scoring. Then again, I wouldn't be smug about posting this myself because I'm fairly certain my post is going to rile up some other person to start another argument.

Taking a nihilistic point of view, I'm just going to not reply.

You are comparing him to somebody who has committed genocides and has taken India from being liberal leaning to a country where in some parts people are being killed for eating beef. Being religious has nothing to do with persecuting others.

As for the rest, its funny how so many Indians are falling over themselves to label Iman Khan a bigot.

 

[Hitchez]

I think what's truly funny is Pakistanis accusing Indians of voting for a bigot while voting for and supporting the stand of a bigot. All while dismissing the said bigotry as "Just politics". Well not so much funny as tragic for the minorities but then again that's nothing new.

 

[Sultan]

A few posters posts reads: My shit smell less than yours!

 

[Wengerscoat]

That's for the early morning laughs

I am glad, the day Indians stop invading Pakistani social media platforms is the day perhaps I will laugh as well.

@Wengerscoat The US has placed a 10m bounty on Hafiz Saeed. Just because you're ignorant or choose to turn a blind eye towards his actions doesn't mean he isn't a terrorist.

Ah yes, the US, the paradigm of justice. Considering how much we have been their doormat and Saeed roamed free without any real threat from them should tell you why the bounty was there and to please who.

 

[Wengerscoat]

I think what's truly funny is Pakistanis accusing Indians of voting for a bigot while voting for and supporting the stand of a bigot. All while dismissing the said bigotry as "Just politics". Well not so much funny as tragic for the minorities but then again that's nothing new.

The day Imran Khan oversees a mass killing of a minority in their thousands is the day you can make comparisons between the two bigots.

 

[KM]

Ah yes, the US, the paradigm of justice. Considering how much we have been their doormat and Saeed roamed free without any real threat from them should tell you why the bounty was there and to please who.

Hopefully the day comes when India is so developed and powerful that countries like USA takes steps to please India. Right now however, we are not at that stage.

 

[Wengerscoat]

Hopefully the day comes when India is so developed and powerful that countries like USA takes steps to please India. Right now however, we are not at that stage.

The US does please India when it comes to Pakistan. And sadly, unlike us, India plays its cards right on the international stage.

 

[VP]

I watch the general internet for obsession. Every Pakistani forum is overrun by Indians, it borders on ridiculous. I have managed two forums, our main work was dealing with racist Indian trolls. Who would come on Pakistani forums to tell us we're obsessed about them. I mean go to PakPassion, Pakdefence and you'd get my point. And amazingly those places still allow Indian Moderators. I was on ICF, an Indian forum, once. My post count was what, 4? I logged in after a year with a message banning me when a new admin team came in, 'Bye bye Porki' . So, the obsession is pretty one sided.

As for Saeed, Indians say he's a terrorist. For me that statement is worth as much as toilet paper. I had never even heard of him until a year ago and that was only because of Indians. Who also claimed he was some next coming of God when it came to our elections, yet he won zero seats and got trounced everywhere. Saying that, I am secular myself and I'd ban him and his ilk if I was incharge.

Either you're deliberately dismissing a known terrorist or willfully ignoring one, regardless it reveals everything about your bigotry.

 

[Wengerscoat]

Either you're deliberately dismissing a known terrorist or willfully ignoring one, regardless it reveals everything about your bigotry.

He's a known terrorist to Indians, not me. I don't know how that makes me a bigot though, as I hate these extreme tableeghi scumbags more than you. I have had people I know get hurt by them/blackmailed,extorted by them, so save me your nonsense.

 

[Hitchez]

The day Imran Khan oversees a mass killing of a minority in their thousands is the day you can make comparisons between the two bigots.

I mean they are both bigots, so I'm quite comfortable in making the comparison. I wouldn't have to but posters seem to find a way to bring Modi into every discussion despite no one defending him. There's only one group of people actually defending a bigot on this thread.

And as far as I'm concerned there's no difference between bigots and people who knowingly vote for bigots. Two sides of the same bigoted coin.

 

[MJJ]

I mean they are both bigots, so I'm quite comfortable in making the comparison. I wouldn't have to but posters seem to find a way to bring Modi into every discussion despite no one defending him. There's only one group of people actually defending a bigot on this thread.

And as far as I'm concerned there's no difference between bigots and people who knowingly vote for bigots. Two sides of the same bigoted coin.

Hitchez since you seem so strongly informed, please let me know which action of IK in KPK or since coming to power can be construed as bigoted?

 

[Sultan]

Bigot has become a buzzword in this thread.

 

[Sultan]

He's a known terrorist to Indians, not me. I don't know how that makes me a bigot though, as I hate these extreme tableeghi scumbags more than you. I have had people I know get hurt by them/blackmailed,extorted by them, so save me your nonsense.

On what grounds are you comparing Saeed with Tableeghis? The group is completely apolitical.

 

[Wengerscoat]

I mean they are both bigots, so I'm quite comfortable in making the comparison. I wouldn't have to but posters seem to find a way to bring Modi into every discussion despite no one defending him. There's only one group of people actually defending a bigot on this thread.

And as far as I'm concerned there's no difference between bigots and people who knowingly vote for bigots. Two sides of the same bigoted coin.

As I said, his critics are hilarious. Some call him a bigot some call him a liberal and a Jewish agent. Says more about them then him.

 

[Wengerscoat]

On what grounds are you comparing Saeed with Tableeghis? The group is completely apolitical.

Tableeghis are anything but apolitical. Jamat-Islami, MMA and now TLYP were all over the last elections, though they won nothing.

 

[Sultan]

Tableeghis are anything but apolitical. Jamat-Islami, MMA and now TLYP were all over the last elections, though they won nothing.

They had no candidate in the elections. One of the main rules of the movement is not to get involved in any political activity or controversies. None of the groups you mention has any affiliation with the Tablighees.

 

[anant]

I watch the general internet for obsession. Every Pakistani forum is overrun by Indians, it borders on ridiculous. I have managed two forums, our main work was dealing with racist Indian trolls. Who would come on Pakistani forums to tell us we're obsessed about them. I mean go to PakPassion, Pakdefence and you'd get my point. And amazingly those places still allow Indian Moderators. I was on ICF, an Indian forum, once. My post count was what, 4? I logged in after a year with a message banning me when a new admin team came in, 'Bye bye Porki' . So, the obsession is pretty one sided.

As for Saeed, Indians say he's a terrorist. For me that statement is worth as much as toilet paper. I had never even heard of him until a year ago and that was only because of Indians. Who also claimed he was some next coming of God when it came to our elections, yet he won zero seats and got trounced everywhere. Saying that, I am secular myself and I'd ban him and his ilk if I was incharge.

Wow! The guy is the head of an organization that is declared a terrorist organisation not just by India but by various organizations as well. The statements raises questions on your character when you say that the guy who was responsible for the worst Terrorist attack on Indian soil (Mumbai 2008) and attacks on Indian Parliament along with Mumbai train blasts and countless other attacks is not a terrorist!

I mean, it's your right to defend your country, but atleast accept facts!

 

[Wengerscoat]

Wow! The guy is the head of an organization that is declared a terrorist organisation not just by India but by various organizations as well. The statements raises questions on your character when you say that the guy who was responsible for the worst Terrorist attack on Indian soil (Mumbai 2008) and attacks on Indian Parliament along with Mumbai train blasts and countless other attacks is not a terrorist!

I mean, it's your right to defend your country, but atleast accept facts!

Same old boring Indian accusations, not worth my time really.

 

[Wengerscoat]

They had no candidate in the elections. One of the main rules of the movement is not to get involved in any political activity or controversies. None of the groups you mention has any affiliation with the Tablighees.

All the groups I mentioned do tableegh regularly, the massive donations is how they run their organisations. Come to any Uni campus in a big city and you'll see what I mean.