Pakistan-India Discussion

Uzz said:
The majority of Pakistan's problems lie with corruption and nepotism at the top. This constant brushing under the carpet is arguably more damaging for Pakistan as no one is effectively dealing with the problems internally. We are always either reactionary, or too slow to anticipate, and this is because of incompetent leadership. There is no support for the terrorists amongst the layman. I've travelled through Pakistan many times, the cities, the rural areas and the poorer places, where you expect to see some support, there is none. The people there are the victims and are caught between drones and terrorists themselves.



No, a better comparison would be Pakistan being FC United of Manchester.



On point 1-If you've read my posts in this thread, you'll see this what I've been saying all along.

On point 3-Well, this is not true at all. I've been critical of Western influence, but I've also been critical of Saudi government, IS, Assad etc. Don't make things up. It'd be good for you to remember-Iraq's problems didn't start with the war in '03, neither did Syria's in '11.
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Point 1 had no relation to point 3, I agree with your general point that Pakistan is not the mother of all evils. I would definitely disagree with any suggestions (not from you in this thread) that India has supported and continue to support terrorism in Pakistan, you guys do it well yourselves.

I remember the Iraq wars and the history well, I was just pointing out a fact that you've done this before too, blaming terrorist culture because of arms proliferation/previous support for insurgency by a Western power. Let's agree to disagree.
 
VidaRed said:
:lol::wenger::lol:
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I did say probably :p
digitalnirvana said:
That is wrong and you know it. Let us take it to another thread if you feel like debating

And @snk123 you make interesting points, and I would counter that by the end 80s when the Kashmir and Soviet insurgencies were either peaking/peaked, there were no atrocities *in* Pak because the factories in PaK (note I am not saying PoK) and FATA were exporting it to both neighbors - east and west. The army has always been far too strong for Pak society's own good, and therein lies the problem. USA found a fertile ground to create extremists in Pak because the ISI was happy to be paid to create trouble. Democracy's other pillars are too weak in Pak, even though the judiciary tries its best. Contrast that to BD for e.g., which is much more moderate because the army (except in patches) never got strong enough to stage coups and/or assassinate the heads of state at will
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There is no debate? The Indian to Pakistani ratio in this thread is quite high,"debating" wont change that fact or the fact that Indians are biased against Pakistanis and vice versa.
 
MJJ said:
I did say probably :p


There is no debate? The Indian to Pakistani ratio in this thread is quite high,"debating" wont change that fact or the fact that Indians are biased against Pakistanis and vice versa.
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After 15k posts, I have realized that all internet debates are pointless. Let's all just schedule a skype or similar meet, get our own drinks and have e-party.
 
snk123 said:
Nowhere did i absolve ISI of the blame but it was VidaRed and your bigoted implication that Pakistan deserved all of the blame for creating the Taliban. Birthplace, daddy, founding fathers?
ISI would have never helped create/train the Taliban if it hadn't been told to by the CIA to do so, which was my whole point.

I think Hilary sums it up pretty nicely.
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There was no "violent" reading of Islam in Pakistan before - it was deliberately introduced by the Pakistani regime of Zia ul Haq backed by the U.S to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Quite convenient to be able to reply with something you yourself wrote. This violent reading of Islam combined with political motivations and ability to mobilize the masses to a existential cause is exactly the blueprint for almost all of the extremist islamism we're seeing in conflicts nowadays.


Uzz said:
@Desert Eagle -Firstly, please stop clinging onto an idea of a strawman argument to cover your own ignorance.


This paragraph is messy, and I'm finding it a little hard to understand what you're trying to convey.

But, I've bolded part of it-the US/UK funded the mujahideen who began fighting in the first place because the 'Democratic Republic of Afghanistan' didn't adhere to the religious and land laws of the Afghan Muslims. Now, if we go back to what snk123 said...all the way to...



And now you, yourself, have said:



Which in itself isn't too dissimilar. So, I could easily repost your own criticism to snk123, as you're saying practically the same thing.

The rest of your post is just garbage/a mess. Your response was to the bolded bit of snk, and now you're trying to cover your tracks. I'm not going to sit here and go over the semantics of your posting style, or what is in response to what.

I'm happy to debate how the mujahideen came from tribal, farming folk to fighters, and I'm happy to debate how "Pakistan and Muhammad Zia ul-haq is pretty much the birthplace/daddy of what we call modern islamist terrorism" (in a separate thread). To blame Pakistan for all of this, however, is just plain false. Considering the numerous other factors at play here that haven't even been mentioned, it's a cop out to just say 'it's their fault' and that's it.
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You really are quite special. You actually quote what I wrote, say you're happy to debate it then add a little however so you can save face by responding to a strawman.


To blame Pakistan for all of this, however, is just plain false.

Considering the numerous other factors at play here that haven't even been mentioned, it's a cop out to just say 'it's their fault'
and that's it.

So let's ignore the USSR, US, Mohammed Daud, the coups from 1843-1973, the constitutional monarchies, Zahir Shah, and Britain, and instead, blame Pakistan and M Zia Ul-Haq.

So, none of the factors listed above contributed to " the birthplace/daddy of what we call modern islamist terrorism"?

your bigoted implication that Pakistan deserved all of the blame for creating the Taliban. Birthplace, daddy, founding fathers?
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I can understand if you're desperate to defend Pakistan but don't respond to things that haven't been claimed. It's dishonest and annoying because I have to keep pointing out you're misrepresenting my position. So if you have a different birthplace in mind ( Afghanistan perhaps) or a different founding father ( Mohammed?) then do respond but if all you have to say is different versions of BUT BUT IT'S NOT ALL PAKISTANS FAULT!!! then kindly refrain from replying to this post.
 
2cents said:
As far as Operation Cyclone, what I remember from Steve Coll's Ghost Wars is that while the ISI, CIA and Saudi intelligence ALL had a hand in financing the mujaheddin, the ISI reserved the right to determine who got what, and actively prevented the CIA exerting any influence on the ground in Afghanistan. Each had their favourites - the ISI favoured the JI-alligned Hekmatyar, while the Americans liked Massoud. Of course, Charlie Wilson once said of Jalal al-din Haqqani that he was 'goodness personified.' So it's fair to say there's blame enough to go around for everybody. The Americans for not really knowing or caring enough about the type of people they were helping, and the Pakistanis and Saudis for knowingly aiding the more extreme elements.

The rise of the Taliban was a separate matter - no external actor 'created' them, they rose as a result of the lawlessness that gripped the south-east of Afghanistan in the early 90s, and ultimately came to be seen by the ISI as their best bet for a stabilizing, pro-Pakistani regime in Kabul. The US didn't take much interest in them at all, except to note the possibility that stability in Afghanistan might provide an outlet for Central Asian gas, but ended up turning against the Taliban in the late 90s. And according to Lawrence Wright, when bin Laden and al-Zawahiri returned to Afghanistan in 1996, they had never heard of the Taliban, and feared they might be communists!

I would highlight two important factors (no doubt there are more) which have helped drive the Pakistani establishment's support for Islamist militancy from the late 70s onwards. First, the loss of Bangladesh, a secession which exposed the incoherence of the ethnically diverse Pakistani state and failure of an overarching Pakistani identity in holding it all together, which in turn led to a greater reliance on Islam (supposedly the one common denominator) to do so. Second, the realization that Pakistan could not win a conventional war against India with which to win back Kashmir, which in turn led to support for non-state actors in that conflict (the Arabs suffered a similar realization in their struggle with Israel after 1967).

I'm not Indian or Pakistani, but have visited both places and enjoyed them a lot.
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Great post as usual 2 cents.
 
fishfingers15 said:
I was just pointing out a fact that you've done this before too, blaming terrorist culture because of arms proliferation/previous support for insurgency by a Western power. Let's agree to disagree.
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Could you give me an example of this?

Desert Eagle said:
There was no "violent" reading of Islam in Pakistan before - it was deliberately introduced by the Pakistani regime of Zia ul Haq backed by the U.S to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Quite convenient to be able to reply with something you yourself wrote. This violent reading of Islam combined with political motivations and ability to mobilize the masses to a existential cause is exactly the blueprint for almost all of the extremist islamism we're seeing in conflicts nowadays.




You really are quite special. You actually quote what I wrote, say you're happy to debate it then add a little however so you can save face by responding to a strawman.




I can understand if you're desperate to defend Pakistan but don't respond to things that haven't been claimed. It's dishonest and annoying because I have to keep pointing out you're misrepresenting my position. So if you have a different birthplace in mind ( Afghanistan perhaps) or a different founding father ( Mohammed?) then do respond but if all you have to say is different versions of BUT BUT IT'S NOT ALL PAKISTANS FAULT!!! then kindly refrain from replying to this post.
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I'm not debating this with you any further, because frankly, either a) you can't read, or b) you're too dense to understand. The funniest thing is, you claim I haven't given my position, but you quote my exact post which gives the position. To spell it out yet again, there are a myriad of factors that took place and to lay blame on 1 sole factor is false and stupid. I'd say it's more than just stupid, it's idiotic. Your post was idiotic. On top of that, you'll have seen other posters who concur that blaming solely Pakistan is wrong. Anyway, having said all that, if you want a clue as to what factors are also part of the problem, I've copy pasted here:
"USSR, US, Mohammed Daud, the coups from 1843-1973, the constitutional monarchies, Zahir Shah, and Britain, and instead, blame Pakistan and M Zia Ul-Haq"

Now, I could write an essay on pretty much most of these factors, and how one event led to another event which led to x y z. But all you need to take from this (if you can), is that the political landscape, and the nature of the warfare against the USSR were catalysts for what we see now. If you want more knowledge on the subject, I'd suggest doing some reading online, rather than spouting nonsense.

And don't quote me again-as someone said above, if you don't agree, then let's just agree to disagree.
 
MJJ said:
I know but what do you expect out of a forum heavily populated by Indians. Can't really expect an unbiased discussion.
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Have come to agree with this. There is absolutely no balance in the arguments from the other side - Pakistan is solely to blame? Give me a break. Delusional, "always-right" Indians even believe that Pakistan army starts firing shots over from Sialkot for no reason when they are already engaged in multiple wars.
 
snk123 said:
Have come to agree with this. There is absolutely no balance in the arguments from the other side - Pakistan is solely to blame? Give me a break. Delusional, "always-right" Indians even believe that Pakistan army starts firing shots over from Sialkot for no reason when they are already engaged in multiple wars.
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There are no situations where it's black or white, but do you honestly believe that India has been the aggressive element in Kashmir struggle?
 
i'm late to this fun fest - but haven't pakistanis killed more pakistanis than anyone else in recent times. i'm not up for going back 500-100yrs i've been drinking.
 
It's hard for outsiders to understand this debate and conflict. For example, I think that as peoples, Pakistan and India are really very similar, it's just that the food is spicier in Pakistan. Maybe I'm wrong but Shaheen Tikka House says otherwise.
 
Finally released Lakhvi, as they intended, after months of song and dance. A stand-up nation. Real crusader against terrorism.
 
Heh. Joke of a nation. Releases the suspected mastermind of one of the deadliest terror attacks in the last 20 years on bail. Fighting against terrorism my ass.
 
Insanity said:
Finally released Lakhvi, as they intended, after months of song and dance. A stand-up nation. Real crusader against terrorism.
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KM said:
Heh. Joke of a nation. Releases the suspected mastermind of one of the deadliest terror attacks in the last 20 years on bail. Fighting against terrorism my ass.
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Yeah, this is exactly why most people turn their faces the other way whenever they plead for sympathy because they are one of the worst hit by terrorism. There's only so much sympathy you deserve when your laws and your governments aren't powerful enough to keep a bloodletter like Lakhvi behind bars.
 
MDFC Manager said:
Yeah, this is exactly why most people turn their faces the other way whenever they plead for sympathy because they are one of the worst hit by terrorism. There's only so much sympathy you deserve when your laws and your governments aren't powerful enough to keep a bloodletter like Lakhvi behind bars.
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This is the reason most of the people in our Country can never trust this neighbour of ours. The common man on both slides of border maybe alike but the Government and military officials on that side and their obsession with India and Kashmir has been the root cause of all this.
The only 'impressive' thing Pakistani governments and military officials have managed to do in all these years of supporting anti-India terror activities is, paint themselves as the victims in all this. I mean, projecting RAW as an agency which causes terror strikes in Pakistan and making people believe it :lol:

Yes, very sadly enough now, like that attack on school, Pakistani common people and innocent are suffering but the cause for that goes way back.

I hope our current Government is more stronger in our actions than previous ones and I think it will be. We don't need war like situation and innocent deaths but about time Indian Government settles it straight in as diplomatic way as possible and if not.... as they deem right.
 
The arrest itself seems to have been purely symbolic in nature
And while the trial dragged on, Lakhvi never lost his grip on the operations of the LeT. According to Pakistani media reports, Lakhvi and the other suspects lived in luxury in several rooms next to the jailer's office at the sprawling Adiala Jail in Rawalpindi, receiving up to 100 visitors a day without any supervision by prison officials.
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http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...rmind-lakhvi-walks-free/article1-1335865.aspx
 
He's just released on bail. The case is still pending.

Obviously the prosecution (government) lost the case to extend his bail. There will be uneasiness on the part of Pakistani government officials with the news. Understandably, Indians will get frustrated and emotional with the news. However, despite this we should let the judicial process take its course hoping that serves the interest of justice for the victims and their families.
 
It will take very brave politicians to deal with these matters in Pakistan. Easier said than done. Many governments of the world are suffering with mafias. Pakistan are no different. These people have very powerful underworld connections and any courageous politician speaking out against these people will be doomed.
 
In reality, it is just pipe dream though, expecting anything from Pakistan or its judiciary on matters of terror attacks on India.
 
Sultan said:
He's just released on bail. The case is still pending.

Obviously the prosecution (government) lost the case to extend his bail. There will be uneasiness on the part of Pakistani government officials with the news. Understandably, Indians will get frustrated and emotional with the news. However, despite this we should let the judicial process take its course hoping that serves the interest of justice for the victims and their families.
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So their anti terror laws are weak as piss? Good luck to them turning things around then...
Sultan said:
It will take very brave politicians to deal with these matters in Pakistan. Easier said than done. Many governments of the world are suffering with mafias. Pakistan are no different. These people have very powerful underworld connections and any courageous politician speaking out against these people will be doomed.
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Fair points, but to any outsider, there is clearly a lack of conviction in Pakistani polity. If the terror accused can get bail in such serious cases while allegedly also spending a life of luxury in 'jail', then it's barely any surprise that their own civilians continue to pay the price for it with their lives.
 
Yemen conflict: Pakistan rebuffs Saudi coalition call

Pakistan's parliament has decided against military involvement in the Saudi-led coalition fighting Houthi rebels in Yemen, after days of debate.

Lawmakers voted unanimously in favour of a resolution that "Pakistan should maintain neutrality" in Yemen.

Saudi Arabia had asked Pakistan last month to contribute ships, aircraft and troops to the campaign to restore President Abdrabbuh Mansour Hadi.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-32246547
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2cents said:
Yemen conflict: Pakistan rebuffs Saudi coalition call
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For once, they've made a good call there.

Off topic but why the feck do one of the biggest arms importers in the world (Saudi) want assistance from Pakistan? Loathe to let their own men die and looking for mercenaries, aren't they?
 
MDFC Manager said:
For once, they've made a good call there.

Off topic but why the feck do one of the biggest arms importers in the world (Saudi) want assistance from Pakistan? Loathe to let their own men die and looking for mercenaries, aren't they?
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its about politics, not about the military aspect. SA wants to isolate Iran, while cementing its own role as regional leader.
 
Insanity said:
Finally released Lakhvi, as they intended, after months of song and dance. A stand-up nation. Real crusader against terrorism.
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KM said:
Heh. Joke of a nation. Releases the suspected mastermind of one of the deadliest terror attacks in the last 20 years on bail. Fighting against terrorism my ass.
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It's not like we in India can boast of a great record of arresting our Hindu crusaders. For example: the Srikrishna commission report which nailed the Shiv Sena, Bal Thackeray downwards. Of the hundreds named, the number of convicted is in single digits, and these convictions happened ~15 years after the riots.

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/j...-no-noise-about-the-mumbai-riots/20140204.htm
 
akash02 said:
I for one never saw that coming! Typical Pakistan.
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Insanity said:
Finally released Lakhvi, as they intended, after months of song and dance. A stand-up nation. Real crusader against terrorism.
Click to expand...

KM said:
Heh. Joke of a nation. Releases the suspected mastermind of one of the deadliest terror attacks in the last 20 years on bail. Fighting against terrorism my ass.
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It's not like we in India can boast of a great record of arresting our Hindu crusaders. For example: the Srikrishna commission report which nailed the Shiv Sena, Bal Thackeray downwards. Of the hundreds named, the number of convicted is in single digits, and these convictions happened ~15 years after the riots.

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/j...-no-noise-about-the-mumbai-riots/20140204.htm
 
Sultan said:
He's just released on bail. The case is still pending.

Obviously the prosecution (government) lost the case to extend his bail. There will be uneasiness on the part of Pakistani government officials with the news. Understandably, Indians will get frustrated and emotional with the news. However, despite this we should let the judicial process take its course hoping that serves the interest of justice for the victims and their families.
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Pakistan didn't wait for the judicial process to take its course when it was killing pak-taliban terrorists after the school attack.
 
MDFC Manager said:
For once, they've made a good call there.

Off topic but why the feck do one of the biggest arms importers in the world (Saudi) want assistance from Pakistan? Loathe to let their own men die and looking for mercenaries, aren't they?
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Pakistan did it because it doesn't want to be encircled between hostile nations, its already on the negative side of India and afghanistan. Another reason is they dont simply have the soldiers to spare. They're spread thin manning the Indian and afghanistan borders and fighting against pak-taliban in pakistan. But if things escalate and push comes to shove the pakistanis will fall in line.
 
Well atleast he's honest and which confirms all the suspicions.
 
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