Incredible scenes!P & G Draft - R1: Tuppet vs Indnyc
- Thread starter Physiocrat
- Start date
Incredible scenes!What the hell.
Looks like Indnyc snapped up Canizares on a a secret deal behind closed doors
The only question left is: who will play in goal for Moby now?
We will surely find out next week
The only question left is: who will play in goal for Moby now?
We will surely find out next week
Cheeky.Looks like Indnyc snapped up Canizares on a a secret deal behind closed doors
The only question left is: who will play in goal for Moby now?
We will surely find out next week
Wow, there's a lot in there?! Firstly, thanks but I was more about how the collective midfields would match up rather than individual ability.The midfield battle I see pretty much equal. I don't share @Indnyc assertion that there is not much between Di Stefano and Suarez. Di Stefano is frequently considered in the debate of the greatest player of all time. The difference between him and Suarez is easily much bigger than say Bremner and Robson. At their peak Bremner was as good as Robson. To reference @Gio post in another game look at the 1973 Ballon D'or rankings -
t's not like that it's a weak era either. Look at the GOATs ahead of him. It's hard enough for proper midfielders to get recognised through the Ballon D'Or, harder still when they're competing with the greatest concentration of European GOAT talent there has ever been. Bremner's peak lasted less than Robson's but at the peak there's hardly a difference. I would not say that its anywhere close between Suarez & Di Stefano.
I also completely disagree with Makelele being a better defensive midfielder than Mackay. When Jimmy Greaves picked his top 50 British players he placed Mackay #10 just above Robson and comfortably above the likes of Souness & Edwards. From http://bobbyfc.com/?p=2382 Here's what he had to say -
While he didn't play in super clubs or a powerful national team like Makelele, he still maintained a very impressive silverware list. I don't contend that he would be able to nullify Suarez, but he would do a better job of it than Makelele on Di Stefano for sure.
No doubting Di Stefanos place in the pantheon of great (def top.5) though as @Enigma_87 points out, Suarez was no mug either but there is a difference there I agree. Not asking if Di Stefano was great or how much, but how he would go against a player (a modern great Def Mid) like Makalele.
Re Bremner/Robson.... nah. Bremner was a very good midfielder in an excellent team but he wasn't even the best midfielder in the side. Robson was an excellent midfielder in a good team, there's a huge difference.
I know you'd say "you would say that" but Robson wasn't my first hero when I was some starry eyed kid (that was Buchan tbh). Robson was a hero for me and lots of United fans because he was the quintessential all round/B2B midfielder and when it really mattered, he dragged United through matches against better opposition .... Liverpool in semis, an excellent Everton team in a final, Maradonas Barca, Cruyffs dream team. I watched him home and away for a decade, he was brilliant, a clear step above Bremner.
In terms of Greaves comments, one, MacKay was his mate and teammate and two, while an amazing goalscorer, Greaves (God bless him), used to talk absolute bollocks about football, very much had his heart on his sleeve and his brain in neutral.
I get drafters have to big up their teams.... Agree Di Stefano was one of the ATs but not having Bremner, sorry.
Anyway, collective midfield battle? If you're classing Mackay as a defensive midfielder and Bremner was certainly that (sitting for Giles), the clashes are MacKay/Bremner vs Suarez/Robson and Di Stefano vs Makalele?
Tuppet could do with a more advanced playmaker....Suarez in his earlier Barca role as a IF/AM rather than the Inter midfield playmaking role.
............... Suarez..............
.... Makelele... Robson......
Is a lot more effective than his current set up. The additional goal threat can tip this game.
Iirc though his peak was as DLP at Inter, he won the Balon d'Or for his AM role at Barca.
............... Suarez..............
.... Makelele... Robson......
Is a lot more effective than his current set up. The additional goal threat can tip this game.
Iirc though his peak was as DLP at Inter, he won the Balon d'Or for his AM role at Barca.
Aye, like a lot of players from that era Greaves had his demons and probably ain’t all there at this point. Seems a lovely bloke though, which is again typical of the era.
Can imagine Rahn getting overlooked here but that front 3 of Indy is as good at Tuppet.
Tuppet edges it with Di Stefano but Indy equals it with his midfield.
Tuppet edges it with Di Stefano but Indy equals it with his midfield.
I won’t disagree with the scoring potential of Koscis and i do see the value of Czibor - Koscis but it isn’t too different from Gento - Puskas who also played together and performed admirably
That wasn’t his best position. I want him here to be a creator who can score goals rather than a scorer of goals who can create. Which is why i feel the 3 the way i set up is slightly better
Does the fact that Czibor - Kocsis had an amazing partnership where they played with each other throughout their careers across Honved, Barcelona & for national team as well and had a fantastic understanding with each other weigh into this comparison ? Its not just a good striker & good winger combination together they were greater than the sum of their parts. It was a conscious decision to pick Czibor for left for example instead of say Dzajic. I think this definitely gives us advantage in front 3.
As for the midfield I don't think I am gonna win the argument but it is a fact that out of the 4 midfielders on the pitch the only one to get a top 5 in Ballon D'or was Billy Bremner. I love Robson as any United fan but his peak was not far from Robson at all, it wasn't as long though. There is absolutely no way that the difference between Di Stefano & Suarez is same or more than what is between Robson & Bremner. As for Mackay & Makelele its harder to compare but again I don't see how he equals it with his midfield.
Also the best defender on the pitch is Blanc, the best fullback is Bossis who is taking care or his best winger Gento. Its not just the comparison of player to player but how they are lining up with each other IMO.
The midfield battle I see pretty much equal. I don't share @Indnyc assertion that there is not much between Di Stefano and Suarez. Di Stefano is frequently considered in the debate of the greatest player of all time. The difference between him and Suarez is easily much bigger than say Bremner and Robson. At their peak Bremner was as good as Robson. To reference @Gio post in another game look at the 1973 Ballon D'or rankings -
t's not like that it's a weak era either. Look at the GOATs ahead of him. It's hard enough for proper midfielders to get recognised through the Ballon D'Or, harder still when they're competing with the greatest concentration of European GOAT talent there has ever been. Bremner's peak lasted less than Robson's but at the peak there's hardly a difference. I would not say that its anywhere close between Suarez & Di Stefano.
I also completely disagree with Makelele being a better defensive midfielder than Mackay. When Jimmy Greaves picked his top 50 British players he placed Mackay #10 just above Robson and comfortably above the likes of Souness & Edwards. From http://bobbyfc.com/?p=2382 Here's what he had to say -
While he didn't play in super clubs or a powerful national team like Makelele, he still maintained a very impressive silverware list. I don't contend that he would be able to nullify Suarez, but he would do a better job of it than Makelele on Di Stefano for sure.
This isn’t completely true.. If Suarez and Puskas were playing the same role of creating and scoring i.e. being the primary playmaker then sure Puskas is much better than Suarez. However in terms of creating goals for teams i don’t think it is much different.
Bremner is not really the same class as Robson nor is Mackay better than Makelele. There is a reason the Madrid team struggled when he left and Chelsea got a season conceding just 15 goals. He was the perfect destroyer and a player most teams hated playing against.
Blanc and Hierro is not that different and i would argue Cole is the better fullback. Bossis made his reputation on the left wing and left center back for France even though he played for Nantes on the right for some seasons.
Cole is definitely the best fullback on the pitch. And I say that as a massive fan of Bossis.
I think you mean Suarez & Di Stefano ? And ofcourse they are both creating and scoring, why wouldn't they. They are the second biggest goalscoring threat in their respective teams and yeah Di Stefano is far superior to Suarez without a doubt.
Makelele Real argument is just so meh, they struggled because for some reason they chose to play Guti & Beckham in defensive midfield. Any good defensive midfielder would have done the same job there. I don't agree that Mackay is inferior to Makelele by any means.
That's criminally under rating Makelele to be honest. Sure a good defensive midfielder might have made them miss him to a lesser degree, but he was the best DM on the planet at that point. To say just about any decent DM could replace him seamlessly is way over the top.
Yeah pretty much, for what its worth I don't think Makelele has any hope against Di Stefano. How do you see it going ?
I mean that seem the theme of the debating so far. Bremner who has won Footballer of the year, Finished 5th in Ballon D'or and was selected Leeds United's greatest player ever is supposedly not be able to keep up in the midfield. Mackay who also won Footballer of the year, won the league, the cup, the European trophies are also somehow inferior to Makelele but there is not a big difference in what Di Stefano & Suarez do when they play behind striker ?
Yeah I meant Suarez and Di Stefano.
The Real Madrid argument isn’t meh. This is what Zidane said when Makelele left
Plus him coming into the Chelsea midfield completely transformed them. They were very hard to break down even with Ferriera as a right back
Ah yeah again it seems I keep misinterpreting what you are trying to say. I thought you meant you could chuck any normal DM in that Real side and they'd have carried on winning titles once Makelele left.
On the topics of centerbacks, McNeill has good credentials but Rosato has much better performances in big tournaments
Won the champions league beating a United team consisting of Best, Law and Charlton at their peaks, then beat Cryuff led Ajax in the final
1970 World Cup team of the tournament as the best central defender. Great games against Gerd Muller in the Semifinals and against Tostao in the final
Rock for the great Milan team of the 60’s.
Hierro - Rosato combination is fairly complementary as well. I would argue that they are slightly better as a whole than Blanc -McNeill.
Won the champions league beating a United team consisting of Best, Law and Charlton at their peaks, then beat Cryuff led Ajax in the final
1970 World Cup team of the tournament as the best central defender. Great games against Gerd Muller in the Semifinals and against Tostao in the final
Rock for the great Milan team of the 60’s.
Hierro - Rosato combination is fairly complementary as well. I would argue that they are slightly better as a whole than Blanc -McNeill.
Thats actually what I meant. Think that getting ejected from Real and then the Zidane Bently quote was the best thing that happened for Makelele's reputation. He found a defensively superb manager in Mourinho and started in front of probably the best defense at that time in Carvalho-Terry-Cech and another defensively solid midfielder and English press anointed him as a revolutionary who somehow created a position that didn't exist before. Anyway I am not saying Makelele was not a brilliant defensive midfielder but I am pretty certain that if Real put an actual defensive midfielder in place of Beckham / Guti they would not have missed Makelele at all. Anyway its all very subjective and is my biased view on it.
I don’t say they won’t add to the midfield battle but that we would edge it. Bremener is great but in a choice between him and Robson most people would choose Robson.
Same with Mackay and Makalele.
Billy Mcneill won the the European cup against Inter milan a team boasting of Facchetti, Mazzola Picchi & Suarez, And he did it with Celtic. Also got selected Footballer of the year, won 9 league titles and 7 cups and in general was the leader and defensive lynch pin of one of the greatest teams.
As for Blanc he was selected 3 times in European Championship team of the tournament. In the era of Zidane, Desailly, Vieira etc he won France player of the year and won every honor there is to win in International career.
But how ? Defensive midfielders don't battle with defensive midfielders. My whole premise is that the gap between Di Stefano and Suarez is much bigger than between Bremner & Robson. Makelele is going to have a harder time containing Di Stefano than Bremner & Mackay against Suarez & Robson.
Fixed/agree. I think his Arsenal/Chelsea career give people blinkers when it comes to ability.
Looks like Indnyc snapped up Canizares on a a secret deal behind closed doors
The only question left is: who will play in goal for Moby now?
We will surely find out next week
That goal keeping mix-up is hilarious.Facchetti and Picchi are defenders.. Rostao won the same major trophies but against the likes of Muller, Cryuff, Tostao, Best and Law
Never doubted the credibility of Blanc and Hierro more than matches him there
Defensive midfielders don’t go against each other but a good defensive midfielder can block off great attackers.
Makelele is easily one of the best of all times in that position and I don’t see how anybody can dismiss him and say Di Stefano is going to run all over him.
The point about Suarez and Robson being better meant we would have more control in the midfield
Gone for Tuppet. He has a well oiled front four which provides a great platform for Kocsis and ADS. Rosato and Hierro are stylistically a good fit for Kocsis but with service from ADS, Czibor and Jarizinho I think he will grab a couple. I see why Makelele makes sense on ADS but I was never a big fan of his and found him hugely overrated.
Gento and Rahn will cause problems for Tuppet (really liked the Rahn video, he looks tidy) and Puskas will probably score, I just think Tuppet will score more. Also I'm not 100% convinced of Puskas as a lone striker.
Gento and Rahn will cause problems for Tuppet (really liked the Rahn video, he looks tidy) and Puskas will probably score, I just think Tuppet will score more. Also I'm not 100% convinced of Puskas as a lone striker.
Fair enough. I do think Makelele is being underrated here by a lot of people but it’s all opinions at the end of the day
Think you are underrating Makelele a lot mate, actually.
You can make a case for Real, Chelsea set ups but he was also brilliant for France in their 2006 WC run where they had the second best defense mainly due to his and Vieira’s work in protecting it.
For a good 5-6 years he was world class both at club and international level.
He’s also a good fit for Di Stefano stilistically in this set up where he’s positioned at #10 with two holding midfielders. He won’t hound him all over the pitch but with his positional sense will cover the key parts of the pitch in that area, whilst also having the help of Robson if needed. Both Bremner and Mackey aren’t reknown with their contribution going forward and Indnyc midfield is well equipped at countering him IMO as a team and effort in the central zone.
Not that your midfield is light in any sense but Indnyc has the advantage there.
Ultimately to me it goes down to whoever scores more and whilst Puskas will get joy against the slower CB pair in McNeill and Blanc that Czibor/Kocsis flank would probably create one goal more considering Suurbier
Nice to discover him as I do remember there weren't available specific videos 2 years ago.
The same can be told about Rahn even if I have the feeling that game against France isn't representative of prime Rahn.
Yeah, I much prefer 4-3-3 as well, looks fantastic
I found this video randomly. I need to learn how to make videos though.. It’s good to showcase players who aren’t well known
Rahn deserves to have a good draft.. He really has great credentials
Very probably. Now, it depends on the ranking criteria. Some would prefer Luis Monti for a destroyer role for mythological considerations.
I think Makélélé today would be the welcome anywhere. A beast for sure.
On the other hand, players like Bremner are also strong even if I know how the latter can score some goals but not how he defends!
That said, Bremner looked hard.
I'm looking for a criteria to express a clear-cut opinion here.
I need to watch Greig, Mackay, mcneill and rosato
I need to watch Greig, Mackay, mcneill and rosato