P & G Draft - R1: Tuppet vs Indnyc

Who would win?

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    33
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Physiocrat

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Team Tuppet

Tactic:

We are playing in a 4-2-3-1 constructed to get the best out of Alfredo Di Stefano who is the best player on the pitch and the centerpiece of our team. We'll be playing direct football, utilizing pace & delivery of Czibor & Jairzinho as well as the goalscoring prowess of Kocsis & Di stefano.

Rest of the team is mostly set up to provide a solid foundation for the front four to work their magic and try & keep the brilliant attack of Indnyc at bay. Mackay would be playing as purely defensive midfielder while Bremner would be taking on a B2B role. Both fullbacks are defense first acknowledging the great wingers in opposition.

Blanc would be playing as a ball playing CB along with Mcneill who would take the more conservative defensive role. Both were fantastic in air as well on the deck. Finally Albertosi is one of the greatest Italian goalkeeper between the post. He rivaled Zoff for a start in national team and got picked over him for WC 1970, providing a string of saves to lead their team to final.

Why would we win -

  • Apart from the class of Di Stefano, the phenomenal partnership of Czibor-Kocsis is my best route to attack. Czibor is facing Suurbier and should be able to generally get better of him. Kocsis has an insane scoring record for NT team (75 goals in 68 games !!) rivaling Puskas's goal scoring.

  • Di Stefano is the difference maker in the attack. While Luisto Suarez can match him for playmaking, Don Alfredo's goal scoring (Scored more than double) as well as his work rate gives our team an edge. On right side Jairzinho was also a force when it comes to goal scoring & wingplay. There are too many goals in our team to be contained and they are distributed very well over the front four.

  • Gento is a key player in Indnyc team and we have put one of the best defenders against him. Bossis might not be able to completely stop him but he would definitely limit the damage. Similarly the 'greatest Ranger' Greig on the other hand would make it hard for Rahn, he is used to tussle up against a great winger in Jinky and generally did well to stop him as much as possible.

  • Dave Mackay & Billy Mcneill are under represented in drafts but both were fantastic players. McNeill was a natural leader who had magnificently marshalled the Celtic defence against the very best in Europe and spent his entire career lifting silverware. Mackay was supremely combative and yet wonderfully gifted. Together they should be able hold their own against Indnyc's attack.
Indnyc

Tactics

The team is set up in an attacking 4-3-3 formation to bring out the best of some of my star players in Puskas, Gento, Suarez and Robson. The idea is to create width to stretch the opposition with Gento and Rahn (with Suubier and Cole providing overlaps when possible) and help create space for Suarez and Robson to attack centrally.

Makalele will sit and break opposition attacks allowing more freedom to Robson and Suarez. In defense, Hierro and Rosato should form a very complimentary pair. Hierro had the skills to bring the ball out of defense and Rosato is a throwback to the classic Italian defenders. Both are strong in the air and should be able to deal with the best of attacks.

Ashley Cole and Wim Suurbier are attacking full backs but both of them have legitimate claims of being amongst the top names in their positions. They are instructed to defend first and provide support as a secondary task. They should be excellent in complementing the center backs

  • Tuppet has built a great forward line which will trouble any team. Having said that, my defense stacks up well againt his attack. In Makelele, we have arguably one of the best destroyers of all time. He is perfectly suited to track Di Stefano and prevent him from dictating the game.
  • Rosato is well suited to the threats of Koscis. He has a stellar record against the likes of Gerd Muller and Tostao who he came up against in the 1970 world cup and stopped both of them from influencing the match. In the semi finals, Muller didn’t score until Rosato was substituted in the 90th minute and then promptly went on to score twice!! Rosato also has great performances against Cryuff in the 1969 European Cup final for Milan vs Ajax for which he came to be known as the Hammer of Hamburg. In the 1969 Semi Final, the Milan team beat Manchester United in keeping a clean sheet against a team of Best, Charlton and Law. A quick and composed centre-back, Roberto Rosato was a one-man microcosm of catenaccio. His job was to harry, stifle, mark and chase, all of which he did with the requisite diligence.
  • Jairzinho is directly against Ashley Cole who is easily one of the best left backs in the last 20 years. He has performed on the highest stage and come out on top even against the likes of Messi and Ronaldo.
Midfield Battle

My team would have the advantage in terms of quality in midfield. Whatever combination of Bremner, Mackay and Häßler is played, they would have a tough battle against Suarez, Robson and Makelele who form arguably one of the best midfields in the draft.

Attack

While the opposition attack is well known, Helmut Rahn is slightly less famous than Jairzinho on the same position but has very similar credentials. He was selected in the All Star team of 1954 world cup scoring twice and assisting once against the Mighty Magyars in the “Miracle of Bern”

Was awarded the Silver boot for the 1958 world cup where he scored 6 goals (same as Pele) and with 10 goals across two world cups he is amongst the top world cup goal scorers of all time



Also, Gif of his 54 World Cup winning goal
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@Tuppet you got anything more on your full backs?

Both sides actually match up quite well. I was expecting Tuppets team to take this quite comfortably on first viewing, but the 433 against 4231 seems to match up quite well.
 
P-Nut0712 said:
@Tuppet you got anything more on your full backs?

Both sides actually match up quite well. I was expecting Tuppets team to take this quite comfortably on first viewing, but the 433 against 4231 seems to match up quite well.
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Sure, Bossis should be well known and I'll post some bits later. Here's an excellent post on John Greig thanks to @Joga Bonito


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Men of the stature of Graeme Souness, Sandy Jardine and Ally McCoist have all said John Greig was the best. The fans have said it, too.

They voted him the winner in a competition to find the Greatest Ever Ranger and Greig received his award at a star-studded dinner in Glasgow in March 1999.

It isn't difficult to see why Greig was their choice. It wasn't just his ability, though he was a devastatingly strong and influential player.

It was also his passion, his drive, his undeniable will to win that expressed, more than any other contemporary, the essential spirit of what Rangers Football Club is about.

Consider his achievements:-

  • Captain of his club and of his country
  • A man who led Rangers to their first European trophy
  • Holder of the club's record number of League appearances with 496 games
  • Second only to Dougie Gray for appearances in all competitions with an incredible 857 matches
  • Scorer of 120 goals while playing most of his football in defence or midfield.
  • The only player to have won the Treble an astonishing three times
No wonder that Greig, twice Scotland's Player of the Year, was awarded the MBE in 1977 for his services to the game. Few can compare with such a brilliant record.

Under Greig's forceful leadership they reached the Final in May 1967, only losing to the Bayern Munich of Franz Beckenbauer 1-0 in extra time. It was a great performance from Rangers considering that the Final was played in Nuremberg and was almost like a home game for the Germans.

A determined, forceful player, recognised for his great leadership qualities, Greig made 755 official appearances for Rangers (498 league appearances, 72 Scottish Cup matches, a club record 121 League Cup games and 64 in European Cup). He scored 120 goals for the club and won threedomestic trebles. Greig actually started his career with Rangers as a forward, prior to being moved back to midfield – playing initially alongside another Rangers legend in Jim Baxter – and finally to left back, thus highlighting his versatility and quality.

If any player deserves the accolade of the greatest Rangers ever it is John Greig. His skill, his determination, and his loyalty through long years of service personify the very essence of what Rangers Football Club represents.
 
Tuppet said:
Sure, Bossis should be well known and I'll post some bits later. Here's an excellent post on John Greig thanks to @Joga Bonito


images


Men of the stature of Graeme Souness, Sandy Jardine and Ally McCoist have all said John Greig was the best. The fans have said it, too.

They voted him the winner in a competition to find the Greatest Ever Ranger and Greig received his award at a star-studded dinner in Glasgow in March 1999.

It isn't difficult to see why Greig was their choice. It wasn't just his ability, though he was a devastatingly strong and influential player.

It was also his passion, his drive, his undeniable will to win that expressed, more than any other contemporary, the essential spirit of what Rangers Football Club is about.

Consider his achievements:-

  • Captain of his club and of his country
  • A man who led Rangers to their first European trophy
  • Holder of the club's record number of League appearances with 496 games
  • Second only to Dougie Gray for appearances in all competitions with an incredible 857 matches
  • Scorer of 120 goals while playing most of his football in defence or midfield.
  • The only player to have won the Treble an astonishing three times
No wonder that Greig, twice Scotland's Player of the Year, was awarded the MBE in 1977 for his services to the game. Few can compare with such a brilliant record.

Under Greig's forceful leadership they reached the Final in May 1967, only losing to the Bayern Munich of Franz Beckenbauer 1-0 in extra time. It was a great performance from Rangers considering that the Final was played in Nuremberg and was almost like a home game for the Germans.

A determined, forceful player, recognised for his great leadership qualities, Greig made 755 official appearances for Rangers (498 league appearances, 72 Scottish Cup matches, a club record 121 League Cup games and 64 in European Cup). He scored 120 goals for the club and won threedomestic trebles. Greig actually started his career with Rangers as a forward, prior to being moved back to midfield – playing initially alongside another Rangers legend in Jim Baxter – and finally to left back, thus highlighting his versatility and quality.

If any player deserves the accolade of the greatest Rangers ever it is John Greig. His skill, his determination, and his loyalty through long years of service personify the very essence of what Rangers Football Club represents.
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Cheers for that.

What would make you say he's 'defence first' by the way? Seems like he's played in each area of the field, and it says he usually played either defence or midfield.
 
P-Nut0712 said:
Cheers for that.

What would make you say he's 'defence first' by the way? Seems like he's played in each area of the field, and it says he usually played either defence or midfield.
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Defense first is an instruction here. He played in midfield as well as all across the back line and won the SFWA Footballer of the Year twice in left back role. He is used to playing a defensively solid role to contain the opposition winger, mostly Jimmy Johnstone in the old firm derby.

John Grieg said:
I had my usual tussle with wee Jimmy and I had him on top of those bales at regular intervals. By the time the teams trooped off at half-time, the wee man looked like Wurzel Gummidge because of the amount of straw he had in his hair.
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Tommy Gemmel said:
Rangers would play John Greig at left-back against us to thump wee Jimmy. In one game, in the first five minutes, Greig went right through Jimmy and sent him off the park and on to the running track. I went right up to Willie Henderson and said, "Hey wee man, you're getting the same as Greig just dished out to wee Jinky". He turned and looked at me, alarmed, "What have I done to you?"
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David Hay said:
John Greig was all hustle and bustle, putting himself about all over the pitch and giving everything for the cause. He could put in the welly, too, as Jimmy Johnstone could have told you! I'm not saying he was dirty, but he was hard and there is a world of a difference between the two.
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The Day I Turned Wee Jimmy Into Wurzel Gummidge

Greig kept knocking rival into hay bales at pitchside.

RANGERS legend John Greig remembers the day he turned Jimmy Johnstone into Wurzel Gummidge at Celtic Park and the pair retained their mutual respect for each other at the same time.

Greig is the Ibrox equivalent of wee Jinky, recognised by the Rangers supporters as the greatest player ever to wear a blue jersey.

Their Old Firm battles against each other throughout the 60s and early 70s were therefore the stuff of legend. But 'Greigy' was yesterday as sorely affected as any Celtic fan by the loss of his great adversary.

He said: "I still find it hard to accept the wee man's gone. Those of us who played the game professionally like to think they're indestructible.

"It's difficult to remember that you're only human after all.

"I know how Jimmy suffered in recent years because I kept in touch with him to see how his battle with illness was progressing.

"Our rivalry on the park was second to none but that didn't mean to say that a Celtic player and aRangers player couldn't have a civilised relationship with each other."

Greig's favourite moment on the park came when the Old Firm clashed at Celtic Park in the middle of a particularly severe Winter.

He said: "Undersoil heating hadn't even been thought of in those days.

"Celtic had covered their pitch in straw to prevent the frost from biting and when it came to match day they simply swept the stuff into bales and had it at the side of the pitch.

"I had my usual tussle with wee Jimmy and I had him on top of those bales at regular intervals.

"By the time the teams trooped off at half-time, the wee man looked like Wurzel Gummidge because of the amount of straw he had in his hair."

Greig and Johnstone played in an era when the majority of Scotland's national side was drawn from the Old Firm, something which helped cement the bond between the two men. He said: "I'm not saying we were always out socialising with each other but we met up occasionally and there was agenuine, mutual respect between us.

"Jimmy could turn on a sixpence, as they said in those days, and he was an entertainment in himself. The crowd lapped up players like him and wee Willie Henderson, who was his opposite number at Rangers.

"People today would say it was an old-fashioned way of playing football but the crowd loved it and they were the paying customers."

Greig's favourite theatre outside of Ibrox was playing to the gallery in front of the old-style Celtic Park "Jungle". The area that housed the most fanatical Celtic fans reserved it's "warmest" welcome for Greig whenever he came near them.

He said: "I'd go over there on an Old Firm day and could hear the crowd shouting about what they would do to me if I was too rough on wee Jinky.

"At the same time as they were baying for my blood, I'd be saying to the wee man, 'Now, Jinky, if you're going to go past me then keep on going because if you come back for a second go I might be forced to take action against you'.

"The two of us would be laughing our heads off.

"Jimmy appreciated I had to do my best for Rangers and I understood he was out to destroy me.

"Jimmy was a great personality and he was like a rubber ball on the park.

"You could keep dunting him but he'd always get up and come back for more to help Celtic."
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Tuppet said:
Defense first is an instruction here. He played in midfield as well as all across the back line and won the SFWA Footballer of the Year twice in left back role. He is used to playing a defensively solid role to contain the opposition winger, mostly Jimmy Johnstone in the old firm derby.
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Ah makes sense, I read it as his typical style of play, not an instruction.
 
Lovely midfield @Indnyc
I would switch Suarez to the right though. I am assuming you are playing his Barcelona version here. He predominantly preferred the right channels iirc.

Think both the set of strikers will have a good time against their respective CB's. Even though Blanc is the best CB on the pitch, he would not be high on my list to face Puskas.
Suurbier sticks out as a sore thumb too against Czibor and is bound to struggle. Rosato should be on his side with Hierro on Cashley's side I think.
 
Two very nicely balanced sides. Di Stefano to dominate the pitch and Puskas to dominate the scoreline;)
 
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Don Alfredo said:
Two very nicely balanced sides. Di Stefano to dominate the pitch and Puskas to dominate the scoreline;)
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I’m pretty much on the fence actually and will follow the discussions in the thread. Voted initially for tuppet as Czibor vs Suurbier can prove to be decisive advantage.
 
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Definitely a high-scoring game. On the fence here
 
idmanager said:
Lovely midfield @Indnyc
I would switch Suarez to the right though. I am assuming you are playing his Barcelona version here. He predominantly preferred the right channels iirc.

Think both the set of strikers will have a good time against their respective CB's. Even though Blanc is the best CB on the pitch, he would not be high on my list to face Puskas.
Suurbier sticks out as a sore thumb too against Czibor and is bound to struggle. Rosato should be on his side with Hierro on Cashley's side I think.
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Thanks.. I did consider him to be on the right but think Robson on the right gives a bit more defensive stability on that side?

Hierro generally played on the right in a 4 man defense and again would help out Suurbier a bit more

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Bossis on the right is an interesting choice. I know he played there for Nantes but that is not where he made his reputation? I thought he was better at left back/ left center back though may be mistaken.

To me the big battle is in the midfield where i can see myself getting a lot more joy. Luis Suarez and Robson both have a license to roam forward with Makelele sitting deep. To this Gento and Rahn will stay wide which would stretch the defense and open spaces centrally for my attack
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
@Tuppet @Indnyc ... nice teams.

Can see both forward lines getting some joy/scoring and midfield being a key area.

How do you (both) see the midfield battle going?
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Indnyc said:
Bossis on the right is an interesting choice. I know he played there for Nantes but that is not where he made his reputation? I thought he was better at left back/ left center back though may be mistaken.

To me the big battle is in the midfield where i can see myself getting a lot more joy. Luis Suarez and Robson both have a license to roam forward with Makelele sitting deep. To this Gento and Rahn will stay wide which would stretch the defense and open spaces centrally for my attack
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@BeforeKeanetherewasRobson i just addressed the midfield battle where i feel we have a much better chance of controlling the game.

Mackey and Bremer are great players but would rank them below Robson and Makelele for the roles that they are going to perform.

In my opinion the gap between Suarez and Di Stefano isn’t that big again in terms of what roles they are being asked to perform here in being the creative force of the team.

Also with Makelele sitting and breaking attacks, i feel Di Stefano will not have as easy a ride as people think. With great players, you can’t completely stop them but with specific tactics you can at least neutralize them to an extent.
 
Indnyc said:
Suurbier and Jairzinho have played against each other once and ended with a clean sheet against him. To me the struggle is a bit exaggerated.
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He is playing against Czibor though
 


Suurbier againt Madrid in the Champions League semi final. He does contribute to the attack but rarely is caught out of position or on the counter.
 
Kocsis vs Puskas is an interesting point in this match. Puskas was an absolutely fabulous player with a wand of a left foot and probably the most powerful shot in history. When it comes purely goalscoring though there is hardly any difference between him and Kocsis.
As team mates for both club (Honved) and Internationally its easy to compare their numbers. Starting with their clubs when they come into equal footing playing for Honved, Kocsis consistently outscored Puskas. During the 1952 season at Honvéd, Kocsis was the world's top goalscorer in world 1st division football with 36 goals. He repeated that feat in 1954 with 33 goals. He also finished top scorer of the league with 36 goals in 1952. In all these seasons Puskas was the designated Penalty kick taker but could not outscore Kocsis.

Internationally Kocsis has again matched and bettered the goal scoring feats of Puskas, his 75 goals in 68 appearances are incredible and a better goal scoring ratio than Puskas (84 goals in 85 games). And these goals Kocsis scored in big games like in World cup where he smashed 11 goals and these goals were clutch goals which came in big moments. Goals against Hungary in extra time and Brazil to help move his country to final.

The point of this is not to prove that Kocsis was a better player or even better striker than Puskas (Puskas was better), but the fact that when it comes to goal scoring Kocsis could match and better anything galloping major could do. But the clincher here is the proven devastating partnership of Czibor - Kocsis.

All the goals I mentioned above Kocsis scoring, a huge portion of them came from the brilliant wing work of Czibor. They love playing with each other and pretty much played with each other their whole career from Honved to Barcelona and for Hungary. The fact that Czibor is facing Suurbier and has to deliver the crosses for Kocsis with whom he had almost a telepathic link gives my team a big edge when it comes to goal scoring.
 
Indnyc said:
@BeforeKeanetherewasRobson i just addressed the midfield battle where i feel we have a much better chance of controlling the game.

Mackey and Bremer are great players but would rank them below Robson and Makelele for the roles that they are going to perform.

In my opinion the gap between Suarez and Di Stefano isn’t that big again in terms of what roles they are being asked to perform here in being the creative force of the team.

Also with Makelele sitting and breaking attacks, i feel Di Stefano will not have as easy a ride as people think. With great players, you can’t completely stop them but with specific tactics you can at least neutralize them to an extent.
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Bold. Yip, definite step above.

Makalele, excellent player to have against Di Stefano - speed, physicality, reading the play. If Di Stefano isn't getting much joy, you'd need your midfield to have a great game but don't see that here.

My views on Robson are probably known by now - great player, great leader. The one type of game he had less of an impact in, is when he had to do everything around the pitch... but here, he has one of the AT great Def Mids to sit, which allows him (and Suarez) to boss midfield and drive forward without having to look over their shoulder all the time.

When thinking about Di Stefano and Makalele, something struck me about this game (and drafts in general I guess) .... does the era get considered at all? Sure Di Stefano would do well against probably any Def Mid of the same era but given how the game moved on, would he do well against Makalele? Not only one of the best Def Mids AT but physically/fitness wise, football in their respective eras was almost like two different sports.
 
When it comes to scoring goals again my team has a distinct edge in secondary goal scorers. Outside of Kocsis & Puskas, when you compare rest of the teams the difference is pretty big. I am assuming Luis Suarez (115 goals in 458 games) is the biggest goal threat after Puskas for Indnyc but he has scored less than half goals compared to Di Stefano (376 goals in 521 games) my main secondary goal scorer.

Czibor (144 goals) & Gento (135 goals) are mainly creators and share similar numbers. On the other side Jairzinho (254 goals) has a very convincing lead on Helmut Rahn (145 goals) as well.

I know this is an imprecise metric but its hard to ignore the sheer number of goal differences between our front line. I believe I have a much more varied and dangerous attack.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
@Tuppet @Indnyc ... nice teams.

Can see both forward lines getting some joy/scoring and midfield being a key area.

How do you (both) see the midfield battle going?
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The midfield battle I see pretty much equal. I don't share @Indnyc assertion that there is not much between Di Stefano and Suarez. Di Stefano is frequently considered in the debate of the greatest player of all time. The difference between him and Suarez is easily much bigger than say Bremner and Robson. At their peak Bremner was as good as Robson. To reference @Gio post in another game look at the 1973 Ballon D'or rankings -
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t's not like that it's a weak era either. Look at the GOATs ahead of him. It's hard enough for proper midfielders to get recognised through the Ballon D'Or, harder still when they're competing with the greatest concentration of European GOAT talent there has ever been. Bremner's peak lasted less than Robson's but at the peak there's hardly a difference. I would not say that its anywhere close between Suarez & Di Stefano.

I also completely disagree with Makelele being a better defensive midfielder than Mackay. When Jimmy Greaves picked his top 50 British players he placed Mackay #10 just above Robson and comfortably above the likes of Souness & Edwards. From http://bobbyfc.com/?p=2382 Here's what he had to say -
Jimmy Greaves said:
Dave Mackay – Second only to John Charles in his versatility, Dave Mackay was a 5ft 7in titan and an inspirational title-winner for Tottenham and Derby County.The iconic photo of him grabbing the fearsome Billy Bremner by the shirt says it all about his supreme competitive spirit but he was also a wonderfully gifted footballer. Mackay worked hard and, boy, did he play hard off the field too. One of football’s greatest men.
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While he didn't play in super clubs or a powerful national team like Makelele, he still maintained a very impressive silverware list. I don't contend that he would be able to nullify Suarez, but he would do a better job of it than Makelele on Di Stefano for sure.
 
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Also I don't think I have to sell Di Stefano, but if anyone would like to read more go to this brilliant thread - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/how-good-was-alfredo-di-stefano.404240/

Pele: People argue between Pele or Maradona. Di Stéfano is the best, much more complete

Platini: A great amongst the greats.

Bobby Charlton: Alfredo di Stéfano is maybe the greatest player I have ever seen. I watched him in a match when Manchester United played against Real in the semi-final of the European Cup in Madrid the year before the accident. In those days, there was no substitutes' bench; if you weren't playing, you were in the stand. I felt like I was looking down on what looked like a Subbuteo table—I was that high up—but I couldn't take my eyes off this midfield player and I thought, Who on earth is that?

He ran the whole show and had the ball almost all the time. I used to dream of that, and I used to hate it when anyone else got it. They beat us 3-1 and he dictated the whole game. I'd never seen anything like it before—someone who influenced the entire match. Everything went through him. The goalkeeper gave it to him, the full backs were giving it to him, the midfield players were linking up with him and the forwards were looking for him.

Bobby Charlton: He was simply the most intelligent football player I ever saw. If I had one player to choose, out of all of them, to save my life, he'd be the one.

Eusebio: The most complete footballer in the history of the game.

Sir Alex Ferguson: Di Stéfano was one of the greatest footballers ever. He had such great balance.

Helenio Herrera: Alfredo Di Stéfano was the greatest footballer of all time; much better even than Pelé. He was, simultaneously, the anchor on the defensive, the playmaker in midfield and the most dangerous sniper in the attack

Maradona: I really don’t know if I was better than Pele. Di Stefano was better than Pele.

Gento: Di Stefano was the first Galactico. In fact, he was worth as three of them combined.
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Tuppet said:
The midfield battle I see pretty much equal. I don't share @Indnyc assertion that there is not much between Di Stefano and Suarez. Di Stefano is frequently considered in the debate of the greatest player of all time. The difference between him and Suarez is easily much bigger than say Bremner and Robson. At their peak Bremner was as good as Robson. To reference @Gio post in another game look at the 1973 Ballon D'or rankings -
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I'm not sure I'd agree on this. Bremner and Mackay were one of the best center halfs in England/Scotland of their time and generally world class players, but they are definitely a tier below Souness, Keane and Robson in all time sense.

Like them both, just picked Mackay in the previous draft, but I'd probably have both Makelele and Robson before them, especially in Indnyc setup.

If we're using Ballon D'or rankings Suarez won it in 1960, be he also was second in 1961, 1964 and third in 1965. He was a great player, definitely below Di Stefano, that goes without saying but IMO Indnyc has an advantage in midfield all things considered.
 
indy did a obi mikel on moby, love it!
 
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