We'd be better off if Kagawa played No. 10 and RvP up top...Rooney can play on the left, Nani on the right
Our team identity/team cohesion
- Thread starter Aboutreika18
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So much for Moyes' hoof ball tactics everyone thought he'd deploy. If we carry our current form into the next few games we'll certainly develop a positive identity.
It's probably just me and my retarded view on things, but I really think van Persie is a hindrance when it comes us playing exciting football, I've thought this for a while. He's to static in his positioning and isn't the type of player you expect to see interchanging with his team mates, particularly when compared with the likes of Kagawa, Rooney, Januzaj and Nani. So on that end of the spectrum you've got a player that you can't really utilise and expect exciting chemistry from the front four, but on the other hand you simply can't drop a player of his quality.Is the Kagawa-Rooney partnership strong enough to displace him, even if for a few games? I doubt it.
Call me blasphemous but there's a small part of me that hopes van Persie's injury (is he even injured?) carries through to the Tottenham game, at least then we can give Kagawa and Rooney a run of games together and see how well they gel, particularly against a tough opponent the likes of Tottenham. I don't know, I'm probably just spouting a load of rubbish but I just thought I'd jot down my opinion in this thread.
It's probably just me and my retarded view on things, but I really think van Persie is a hindrance when it comes us playing exciting football, I've thought this for a while. He's to static in his positioning and isn't the type of player you expect to see interchanging with his team mates, particularly when compared with the likes of Kagawa, Rooney, Januzaj and Nani. So on that end of the spectrum you've got a player that you can't really utilise and expect exciting chemistry from the front four, but on the other hand you simply can't drop a player of his quality.Is the Kagawa-Rooney partnership strong enough to displace him, even if for a few games? I doubt it.
Call me blasphemous but there's a small part of me that hopes van Persie's injury (is he even injured?) carries through to the Tottenham game, at least then we can give Kagawa and Rooney a run of games together and see how well they gel, particularly against a tough opponent the likes of Tottenham. I don't know, I'm probably just spouting a load of rubbish but I just thought I'd jot down my opinion in this thread.
Kind of agree, not fully but I see where you're coming from.
Goals win games and for that reason, a fit RVP has to be in the team 8-9 times out of 10 but I do think certain combinations have the potential to work better. It's a good problem for Moyes though.
A second run out for Rooney ahead of Kagawa is the least they deserve. Do it, Moysey.
I think rvp is more then capable of playing exciting football, he's excellent technically and great at linking with players, he's shown that with arsenal and holland, and here at united. The problem is just when we use a 4-4-2 with Rooney and rvp both playing, our play becomes give the ball to the wings to cross it in. It's the formation, not the players. It's not really possible to have us play great football consistently if we persist with using them both as strikers, but it can be effective football. I can't see moyes changing much long term as long as their both here.
Moyes has inherited a strange team.
I think it's universally agreed that Kagawa, Rooney and Van Persie are all good enough that we'd like to see them start every game. Only what happens when you do that? You lose width. If you lose width you lose a part of United's DNA which dates back to Busby.
What other option do you have other than to play 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1? Only if you do that, you only have 2 CM's and it's been clear this season that we don't have good/mobile enough CM's to play just 2. I've lost count of the amount of times the opposition have walked right through them.
Moyes really is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. I guess I understand what OP says when he says it was good that RvP was out vs Leverkusen. It gave us a chance to play Kagawa as no10 and therefore made us better protected in the middle.
There are 2 options I see:
1) Drop Rooney or Van Persie in order to play Kagawa as the number 10.
2) Sign a very talented and very mobile CM to make us less vulnerable in CM when playing a variation of 4-4-2.
I think it's universally agreed that Kagawa, Rooney and Van Persie are all good enough that we'd like to see them start every game. Only what happens when you do that? You lose width. If you lose width you lose a part of United's DNA which dates back to Busby.
What other option do you have other than to play 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1? Only if you do that, you only have 2 CM's and it's been clear this season that we don't have good/mobile enough CM's to play just 2. I've lost count of the amount of times the opposition have walked right through them.
Moyes really is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. I guess I understand what OP says when he says it was good that RvP was out vs Leverkusen. It gave us a chance to play Kagawa as no10 and therefore made us better protected in the middle.
There are 2 options I see:
1) Drop Rooney or Van Persie in order to play Kagawa as the number 10.
2) Sign a very talented and very mobile CM to make us less vulnerable in CM when playing a variation of 4-4-2.
I said the same thing a couple of days ago on another thread (the one about how to play RvP, Rooney and Kagawa together):
"I think that the honest answer to the OP is that it can't (or shouldn't) be done. We bought Kagawa to play #10 behind Rooney's #9 - buying RvP negated that as an idea and succeeded in both destroying most of Kagawa's value and pissing Rooney off. Despite his goals (or perhaps because of them) I see RvP as the major factor in our lack of fluidity. The same thing happened with RvN - we became obsessed with getting him the ball and slowly forgot to play football. I would honestly have been much happier if we hadn't signed RvP - I don't think we'd have been short of goals with Rooney and Kagawa linking and I'm sure our football would have been more attractive."
What nonsense. Rvp is technically better than both Rooney and Kagawa and just as quick in thought. There's no way one of the most technically gifted strikers is a hindrance to fluid football. Maybe if he's unable to strike up a good understanding with Kagawa or others then that could cause people to feel that way. But in terms of his abilities as a player, nah? Arsenal play fluid football with giroud uptop. Is giroud better for fluid football than van Persie? Come on now.
I dont knkw what is happening. Players have been saying that not.much has changed since SAF left but to me we are looking like a team in trasision. A transion from what to what if nothing has changed.
I become disillusioned about Moyes coaching skills.
I become disillusioned about Moyes coaching skills.
I wish we could pass the ball instead of playing percentage football. We need to know what Moyes' idea is for the way we are going to play because right now it's not apparent.
We have far to many squad players who have found themselves as first teamers.
We have far too many average/liability players in the team. Cleverley, Welbeck, Valencia, Evra, Evans. Way too many of these players are starting games when they shouldn't be.
I think Moyes wants us to press and become more direct. I'm not a fan of some of the useless lumping we've started to do but I do feel a large part of it is down to no one commanding the ball and making incisive passes in midfield which in turn forces the centre-backs to force the issue. We look most dangerous at the moment on the counter and from set-pieces. I'm happy that we're working harder this year, I think Gibson made a point about how much harder he had to work at Everton than at United, of course you can attribute that to his attitude but I do think we are pressing better this year. Drop a quality midfielder next to Jones and pop Rafael in at right-back and we're good to go for a few years. It takes time but I do think in the latter years of SAF's reign we stopped doing what we were so good. It's all down to midfield for me, if someone can dictate play and improve our passing we will be superb.
Our identity at the moment = easy to score against, turgid in attack. Said it in the summer, the squad Moyes inherited is no where near as good as some made out. He needed proper reinforcements in the summer.
Right winger, left winger, left back. And by winger I mean a modern winger capable of cutting inside as well as putting crosses in, not a 'hug the touchline and cross the ball in' Valencia-esque winger. If he could use his left foot too, that would be great.
Suggesting that Jonny Evans is a liability is laughable.
What we need is a well balanced team always. Two proper wingers, and then one striker, so nobody gets in each other's way. Welbeck always drifts inward as he has no concept of positioning and doesn't know how to play on the wing or as a striker. Our problem these last few years has always been no balance in our team, either playing with no left winger, or not a proper midfield partnership, or not balanced fullbacks.
Our team against Leverkusen was excellently balanced, which was the biggest reason we won the game and played so well. Everyone knew their job. Today we had welbeck and kagawa both not sure what to do as welbeck kept getting in kagawas way.
Our team against Leverkusen was excellently balanced, which was the biggest reason we won the game and played so well. Everyone knew their job. Today we had welbeck and kagawa both not sure what to do as welbeck kept getting in kagawas way.
Unfair to put him in that company, and I'm not calling to buy another one, but is he a top class centre back? Look back over the years who we've had, Bruce, pallister, Stan, rio, Vidic. Evans isn't a patch on any of them. Same reason welbeck won't ever make it here at united. He can be a good player, but united requires top class players to be starters. Jones can get there. Evans I'm not sure. He's still good though.
Januzaj is perfectly fine as a left-winger and I have no idea why Zaha hasn't been given more a chance. Left-Back I'll give you but Evra has been very good this year.
He's average. Evra is the liability. Though you could argue that evans pace snd mobility coukd make him a liability as well.
Two top quality midfielders would help tbh.
Two midfielders. A couple of wingers, and a left back.
No Evra is past it. He's still capable of good games, but they are few and far between now. And with the role that Moyes wants his FB to play, Evra doesn't have the stamina to last 90 minutes. Last season his goals made it seem like he had a good season, and they were great goals that won us points, but he was still getting caught out of position far too much. A lot of opposition attacks came down his flank.
In what planet is Evans slow, kept up with Walker today and I remember watching him not lose too much ground to someone like Agbonlahor a few years back.
A lot of improvements can be made through better decision making in relation to what we already have.
1) Play right backs at right back. Moyes has continued this crap Fergie habit of playing a centre back at right back, and it's ruinous for our attacking game. Smalling continually loses possession, takes the sting out of moves and puts poor crosses in. Play Fabio when his brother is injured. If Moyes doesn't like Fabio, then buy a proper right back.
2) Top quality central midfielder - does this even need explanation? Bringing a player in as an understudy and eventual replacement for Carrick wouldn't go amiss either.
3) Top class winger. Our wide men are either shite (Young), limited (Valencia), infuriatingly erratic (Nani) or inexperienced (Januzaj). We don't have one wide man who we can consistently rely on to be a supplier of goals and assists. This is problematic for a team that places so much emphasis on this area of the pitch.
4) Play attackers in their proper positions - Welbeck isn't a left winger. Kagawa isn't a left winger. If we can't accommodate them in their proper positions, don't play them.
Evra is shite defensively, offensively he's improved his output from crosses this year and he's a huge threat from set-pieces, he also is a proper United player who gets what it means to play for the club. He's a massive influence and if Moyes palms him off for someone just slightly better like Baines it will a huge error.
Threat from set pieces? Yes he's crossing a lot from outside the box, but how many of those crosses are genuine threats? I don't like him floating crosses in, he's far more threatening driving into the box and drilling one in, but Moyes wants him to play like Baines. It's frustrating. I love Evra, really I do. The day he leaves the club will be a very sad day, but as someone else said, there's shades of Gary Neville in him now.
Yes, Jonny Evans is a top class centre back. Defensively and positionally, he puts the likes of Pique and Hummels in the shade. The former of which is, at times, a shocking excuse of a defender. In terms of distribution, he's right in that league, too. I'm astonished he's in question here. Weird. Our defence, Evra aside, wasn't really a problem today. The first goal was a daft free kick and the second was just one of those things. Get Evans and Vidic together on a weekly basis and we're sorted
Except there isn't, he's been a nonentity defensively for a good 3-4 years, it's not new. Gary Neville was well past it, offensively Evra still provides us with energy.
The only thing I'd say is that out wide it doesn't matter who you go for, if you're not gonna let them take a chance then you're not gonna get the most from there. I can't think of many top wingers around atm, in the beckham or valencia of a few seasons ago who are just gonna hug the line and put in a quality ball when they get the chance, wingers are gonna want to drift, try tricks/tough dribbles etc like Nani does but we seem unwilling to accept that because those players bar the very best will have games where it doesn't come off and the answer isn't to take them out of the team every time because they need to build momentum, likewise you can't expect them to drift as part of the attack and then get annoyed if we get attacked down their side, someone needs to be covering the,.
I think though that's linked to the midfield situation. A stronger midfield both defensively and offensively might let Moyes be more willing to allow the wide players more license to drift/take chances as there should be better cover. It is an area that needs addressing but I think sorting midfield would be a big step towards that without changing personnel, although that might still be neccessary.
Sorry, his offensive runs can't make up for him being an utter defensive liability for me.
Still better than Baines purely because of his influence, he gets what it means to play for United and I think that's something people don't appreciate. Yeah he wasn't great today but neither of the goals were down to him. He's been very good this season on the whole.
As I said in the other thread, I agreed with you that Baines isn't the answer.
It's an issue but I don't even think Shaw will sort it out, over time yes but not right away and he's a Chelsea fan.
Nailed on to be Cole's replacement unfortunately. And it depends on how Moyes wants his fullbacks to play. The issue with whipping crosses in is that neither RVP nor Rooney are fantastic headers of the ball so a lot of the crosses go to waste and we give the ball back to the opposition.
I always felt one of Everton's strengths under Moyes was the full-back play. Hopefully we can get Rafael back in at RB soon.
He's a fecking excellent defender. Jog on.
Nope. Peinnar, osman, and co seem to be able to play great football, and so can that lot. It's the coaching which needs to get them playing he right way.
Look at how we refuse to pass between the lines and play the away sideways passes instead and eventually attack through wide players. It's down to coaching.