Our team identity/team cohesion

Aboutreika18

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Not really a response to today's defeat but more of a general observation over the past couple of seasons or so.

When I watch the likes of Dortmund, Barca, Juve etc it's quite clear in the pattern of play how they play and try to beat their opponents and they do it in a systematic and cohesive way as a team unit. e.g. Dortmund will pressure the ball carrier as a unit and break at pace, something they've clearly spent ages working on in training.

On the other hand, why are we so disjointed as a side and end up relying on individual brilliance too often? Normally when you think of Man Utd, you think of a side that dominates its opponents with excellent wingplay and devestating counter attacks but it's been a good few seasons since we've done that consistently.
 
2008 and 1999 were as different United teams as your will find, but bother were classic United sides. Obviously.
 
Honestly it's one of the most annoying things about this current side that we have no concept apart from rely on individual skill to win us a game. Even when you look at the Liverpool side we faced today you can see a clear concept and you can really see Rodgers work paying off by now. They aren't the most talented side out their but they work well as a team and barely allowed us any room to breath or build up our game today.

I don't know if Moyes will be able to get this mentality out of the team and I don't even think it's necessary to copy Dortmund, Barca or any other team but we need to find a tactical concept that suites our and which can give us the edge in tight games like those against Chelsea or against Liverpool.
 
having to play Cleverley in such a position is the reason for this. The problem is well documented, we lack that key midfielder who links our defence to our attack and that single player often defines the shape a team plays. Cleverley is a great squad player, but as yet, does not have the quality required to be our no 8. That much is clear after the games against Chelsea and Liverpool today. I don't blame him, he can only do as well as he can, and he is putting 100% effort into his performances. Just need to sign that killer player tomorrow!
 
The problem is that in most great teams every player wants to get involved wherever the ball is to be able to play the last-ball/get an assist/score a goal.

In United however every player seems more scared of being blamed for a counter-attack than interested in winning it for us. Seeing the way Young failed to get involved whenever the ball was on the right part of the pitch. Clev/Carrick failing to get involved heavily in our attacks compared to other midfielders around the top clubs in their positions.

It seems like the players are scared of not getting to play the next game if they play bad rather than trying to win matches for us and securing a spot that way.
 
Aboutreika18 said:
Normally when you think of Man Utd, you think of a side that dominates its opponents with excellent wingplay and devestating counter attacks but it's been a good few seasons since we've done that consistently.
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We used to press and hustle an opponent very effectively too, something which is much in vogue now yet we can only manage in glimpses.

The passivity which can afflict us when on the back foot and the oh so methodical build up offensively does certainly take the sting out of too many counter attacks, a trait unfortunately on show yesterday at Anfield.

If Nani can find a semblance of his past form it might at least help to improve one of those areas.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
We used to press and hustle an opponent very effectively too, something which is in vogue now yet we can only manage in glimpses.

The passivity which can afflict us when on the back foot and the oh so methodical build up offensively does certainly take the sting out of too many counter attacks, a trait unfortunately on show yesterday at Anfield.

If Nani can find a semblance of his past form it might at least help to improve one of those areas.
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That was called Roy Keane, ably supported with the youthful legs of Butt, Beckham, Scholes and Giggs. In the same way people eulogise about the current tap dancing midfield of Barcelona right now, so our midfield of the late 1990s was peerless in world football. Those types of players are so hard to find.​
 
More latterly a Park or Fletcher in their prime are be signings that would add something to the present squad in that regard.
 
We've lost our counter attacking threat. You can't come out of the blocks with Giggs, Rooney and RVP, whilst Welbeck Young and Valencia are not good enough running at blistering pace on the counter to lay on an inch perfect pass.

There was a goal Everton scored last season where they knocked the ball about 9+ times and Mirallas finished it because the slick passing opened up the space. We need to get out of the safe comfort zone and play football that way if we haven't got players who can carry the ball or break at a frightening pace (because we don't, Valencia has the pace but he hasn't been using that to good effect for a long long time).

I definitely agree with the idea that we don't have a certain style of play or identity at the moment. We've been very safe in our play since the Madrid tie, and we've lost a fair few football matches in that time. Some balls, some flair, some adventure...where has it gone?

I hope we rediscover a rhythm of ruthlessness in the coming months, because one thing football is about is entertainment and United have lost that factor in recent times. And lets face it, no one is running away with the league stuck in 3rd gear this season, Sir Alex Ferguson was as influential as ever last year.
 
ISSYNAZAR said:
We've lost our counter attacking threat. You can't come out of the blocks with Giggs, Rooney and RVP, whilst Welbeck Young and Valencia are not good enough running at blistering pace on the counter to lay on an inch perfect pass.

There was a goal Everton scored last season where they knocked the ball about 9+ times and Mirallas finished it because the slick passing opened up the space. We need to get out of the safe comfort zone and play football that way if we haven't got players who can carry the ball or break at a frightening pace (because we don't, Valencia has the pace but he hasn't been using that to good effect for a long long time).

I definitely agree with the idea that we don't have a certain style of play or identity at the moment. We've been very safe in our play since the Madrid tie, and we've lost a fair few football matches in that time. Some balls, some flair, some adventure...where has it gone?

I hope we rediscover a rhythm of ruthlessness in the coming months, because one thing football is about is entertainment and United have lost that factor in recent times. And lets face it, no one is running away with the league stuck in 3rd gear this season, Sir Alex Ferguson was as influential as ever last year.
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I agree (I think I'm agreeing with you), it isn't necessarily about having a certain style and way of playing every game, it is about playing fearlessly. Our team is far to conservative - rather than having wingers burst up the wing and attack their defender, they turn and pass, this sort of mentality is replicated throughout the team. The team need to stop holding back and just go for it, because most importantly, people can accept losses but they have very little patience for a boring team (which then loses anyway). I struggle to watch United these days because half the time they bore the crap out of me, playing meaningless passes to nobody, no movement, no flair. It's just dull and for 90% of last season it was the same.
I care more about United going for the throat and playing attacking football than I do about the trophies really, because I watch football because I enjoy it. People talk about that period where Cleverley and Anderson played together for the sole reason that, forget the massive holes in defense, it was brilliant to watch, it was fun and United were scoring goals.
Well, that's just my two cents. I simply feel like United's ethos is to attack. It doesn't matter how, all that matters is playing to score. It seems these days we struggle to do that.
 
The one against Bolton is better than all of them.

sammsky1 said:
​
That was called Roy Keane, ably supported with the youthful legs of Butt, Beckham, Scholes and Giggs. In the same way people eulogise about the current tap dancing midfield of Barcelona right now, so our midfield of the late 1990s was peerless in world football. Those types of players are so hard to find.​

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That was a time and age where our fitness levels were close to being unmatched in the modern game. Where technical ability didn't mean peak fitness. It meant technical ability.

Nowadays technical ability and incredible levels of fitness all over the game means that athletic edge means nothing. Technical teams and players are always going to be superior when you take athleticism out of the equation. Not to say we completely lack it but our 90's philosophy was built on being bigger fast and stronger than our opponents. Add in a dash of our high level of technical ability and it was a formula that was hard to stop back then.
 
Squad cohesion has more to do with the manager than the individuals in the squad. Ultimately, its the manager's responsibility to get the squad playing like a cohesive unit rather than disparate individuals. Its something Fergie did better than just about anyone.
 
We do have an identity which is wingplay. But a) our wingplay has gone tits up and b) we've lost interest in attacking any other way.

Moyes needs time to change things.
 
Agree with the OP. Have been thinking this since watching Juve in the Champions League group stage last year. I don't feel the excitement I used to feel whenever we used to play. Yes, we still win most of the matches, but most of the time we seem to rely on individuals not on any particular plan. Well, we do have a plan which is to pass the ball to wingers and expect them to create chances for our strikers. The flaw with this plan is that these wingers are called Valencia, Nani, Young and Giggs, neither of whom should be starters for a club of our size. Our issues in midfield have tapered over the faults of this set of players last season, and if we strengthen our midfield and continue to play unattractive football, this will become even more apparent. Sometimes I wish we were more ruthless in getting rid of players who are clearly not good enough.
 
Using the last game as an example, how many times were Ferdinand and Vidic sending long balls out to the wingers to start off a move? Why wasn't our midfield coming short to collect the ball to carry and drive it forward?

We really are missing a midfielder who can do that. Anderson, Cleverley and Giggs do not fit the bill and until we address this, which I hope we will in before the window closes today, as unlikely as that is, the better.
 
mlclauhk said:
Using the last game as an example, how many times were Ferdinand and Vidic sending long balls out to the wingers to start off a move? Why wasn't our midfield coming short to collect the ball to carry and drive it forward?

We really are missing a midfielder who can do that. Anderson, Cleverley and Giggs do not fit the bill and until we address this, which I hope we will in before the window closes today, as unlikely as that is, the better.
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That has bothered me for a while in all honestly. I think it was exemplified by Rio standing still with the ball screaming for options around the 81st minute of the game yesterday. Hell, Rooney often drops all the way back to a near-DM position to pick the ball up and move forward with it.
 
We just need to understand that this season is going to be trial and error for Moyes until he puts his stamp on the place.
So lets just give him time and see how it goes.
Hes recognized a need for some midfield players , which is good.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
We do have an identity which is wingplay. But a) our wingplay has gone tits up and b) we've lost interest in attacking any other way.

Moyes needs time to change things.
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Pretty much. The shit form of our wingers have fecked up the way we normally like to play. Think it'l change under Moyes but it'l need time.
 
So where is it? There were signs of it against Leverkusen but once again there was no cohesive movement between our front players and we were a disaster collectively at the back.
 
Moyes hasn't had time to stamp his identity on the side yet. He obviously wanted to get through these first games, keep it tight and defend well and now he will start to shape the team into his own style... It might be shit but i expect we will see an obvious style evolve over the coming months.
 
Who's willing to count how many CB partnerships we've played this season?

Our defense has been horrible this season. It's in the bottom half of the league. Nothing will get sorted until it gets sorted.
 
Many players over the last 5 years used to praise Rene Meulensteen for the tailor made tactics for each game. Makes you wonder how big an error David Moyes made in not carrying on with more of the senior coaches..

We seem to just do the same, static, boring, unimaginative rubbish every game and even worse today our defence can't handle shithouses like Crouch, Walters and an Ibrahimovic wannabe.
 
There is a lot to worry about.

That half was as bad as bad gets and we never deserved the goal. Stoke should be 3 clear of us
 
Each player going forward is doing their own thing, exemplified by Nani not having any short passing option and having to blast at goal from 25-30 yards out three or four times that half.

It's a far cry from the interchanging movement we excelled in going forward what seems like ages.
 
I think we will win this match. They players will come out very very motivated, and they have faced this sort of adversity before. Everyone knows that the pressure is on now.
 
Regardless of whether we win this or not, it's been a consistent problem over the past few seasons.

We've had the individual quality to bail us out but as a team unit, we suffer when certain players don't step their game up.
 
I honestly couldn't tell you what our tactics are, or what kind of team we are. Possession? Wingplay? Counter attack?

We have no identity. Its just a mish mash of bits and pieces.
 
I wouldn't even mind if we changed style game to game but we seem to be unable to produce a style of play even for a 10 minute spell, it is truly dire. We need playmakers in this side in midfield positions to set the tempo... this team is too Carrick-ized throughout, we seem to be playing at his pace and desire, it is telling to be honest.
 
We have been incredibly dull to watch this season. It's been the case for a few seasons but at least we were killing teams off even when we weren't at our best.

How many chances did we create in open play today? We look so clueless in possession compared to other sides at our level.
 
A clearout wouldnt hurt. Watching us this season is just fecking painful. I don't even care anymore whether we win, but just hope that we finally play some proper football, but we don't.

A lot of deadwood in the team. Get rid and get quality in.
 
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