Our most press resistant players

Rozay said:
Why?
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When I said he ranked fourth, that only went up to February so there was still a few months left of the season, so I thought perhaps he may have fallen out of that position, so I went and found something that was more up to date. The more up-to-date one had him in the top five (third) in the league for most successful passes made under pressure.

That's what I meant, really.
 
BusbyMalone said:
When I said he ranked fourth, that only went up to February so there was still a few months left of the season, so I thought perhaps he may have fallen out of that position, so I went and found something that was more up to date. The more up-to-date one had him in the top five (third) in the league for most successful passes made under pressure.

That's what I meant, really.
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I meant ‘why’ in the sense that why would any United fan need to look at ‘data’ to be able to respond as to whether Bruno is press resistant or not?

Anyway, I’ve moaned enough about the over statistical analysis, so I’ll shut up about it now. ‘Who are our most press resistant players’ is not a cue to start looking up spreadsheets and graphs IMO. Especially, when such graphs indicate that Bruno is more press-resistant than Bernardo Silva (and all but 3 players). But this is the game today.
 
Rozay said:
I meant ‘why’ in the sense that why would any United fan need to look at ‘data’ to be able to respond as to whether Bruno is press resistant or not?

Anyway, I’ve moaned enough about the over statistical analysis, so I’ll shut up about it now. ‘Who are our most press resistant players’ is not a cue to start looking up spreadsheets and graphs IMO. Especially, when such graphs indicate that Bruno is more press-resistant than Bernardo Silva (and all but 3 players). But this is the game today.
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I feel like you're getting a little too carried away and needlessly emotional about this. First of all, I'm not looking up "spreadsheets" or "graphs". Secondly, I was replying to someone who literally said Bruno was the worst when it comes to this. I provided information that contradicted that statement. I really don't get why you're so perturbed by data that suggests that he's actually good at this. I mean, isn't this a good thing? No data is 100% perfect, and in the absence of anything that contradicts the data I provided, then I don't see the issue.

This is a positive statistic for one of our players, yet you're treating it like I just insulted him.

Bruno does lose the ball often, and a lot of that is to do with the fact that he's normally the one trying to create things. That's not the only time in which he loses the ball. Sometimes he does it very carelessly in our own half, and it drives me mad. I'm specifically talking about this metric. I'm not saying Bruno never loses possession.
 
BusbyMalone said:
I feel like you're getting a little too carried away and needlessly emotional about this. First of all, I'm not looking up "spreadsheets" or "graphs". Secondly, I was replying to someone who literally said Bruno was the worst when it comes to this. I provided information that contradicted that statement. I really don't get why you're so perturbed by data that suggests that he's actually good at this. I mean, isn't this a good thing? No data is 100% perfect, and in the absence of anything that contradicts the data I provided, then I don't see the issue.

This is a positive statistic for one of our players, yet you're treating it like I just insulted him.

Bruno does lose the ball often, and a lot of that is to do with the fact that he's normally the one trying to create things. That's not the only time in which he loses the ball. Sometimes he does it very carelessly in our own half, and it drives me mad. I'm specifically talking about this metric. I'm not saying Bruno never loses possession.
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I'm not emotional or annoyed about this, although I am annoyed about the general inevitable 3,2,1 before any footy conversation descends into an Opta one nowadays I guess. In this particular instance, me being perturbed would be because the data appears to be wildly inaccurate. I forwarded my own view on Bruno's press resistance, and your response was for me to 'show you my data', which I guess perturbed me further, given my general position on that particular topic.

As a question, do you now feel that you have a more accurate picture of who the most press-resistant players are in the PL having found this top 10? Rodri being number one (unsure who two and three are) and Bruno being four? Is Adama Traore two or three out of curiosity?

Please do not mistake my tone, I don't wish to have a go at you personally at all.
 
Rozay said:
I'm not emotional or annoyed about this, although I am annoyed about the general inevitable 3,2,1 before any footy conversation descends into an Opta one nowadays I guess. In this particular instance, me being perturbed would be because the data appears to be wildly inaccurate. I forwarded my own view on Bruno's press resistance, and your response was for me to 'show you my data', which I guess perturbed me further, given my general position on that particular topic.

As a question, do you now feel that you have a more accurate picture of who the most press-resistant players are in the PL having found this top 10? Rodri being number one (unsure who two and three are) and Bruno being four? Is Adama Traore two or three out of curiosity?

Please do not mistake my tone, I don't wish to have a go at you personally at all.
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Just for the sake of clarity here, I'm not particularly a stats "nerd". I've said before a few times on this forum I don't particularly like the way stats have weaved their way into every aspect of football conversation. The context here is, that I was specifically responding to someone who literally said he's the worst at this. This led to me thinking "is he actually that bad" So I had a look. And the data would suggest, from two different articles, that he's not.

The reason I was asking for data that contradicted what I said, is because you're claiming that it's wilding inaccurate. Well, ok, how are you coming to this conclusion, other than it being an opinion of yours? That's my point there.

Anyway, here are the top five for the 2021/2022 season:

5. Marc Cucurella - Brighton - 327 passes
4. João Moutinho - Wolves - 337 passes
3. Bruno Fernandes - Man Utd - 344 passes
2. Oriol Romeu - Southampton - 346 passes
1. Rodri - Man City - 464 passes

Now I look at Rodri, Romeu, and Moutinho and think "yeah, no surprise to see them on there" and I think a lot of people would say the same. So the list does have some merit.

Again, this is a positive thing! At least I thought so.
 
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The way I see it, there are 4 aspects of being press resistant, depending on how you lose the ball:
1. Lose the ball at the moment of receiving it - players with poor first touch or who are being man-marked suffer the most here, and our worst offenders are Fred and Bruno, but AWB, Bailly and Elanga are not great either; Sancho is also prone to inconsistency with his first touch. Our best here are Shaw and Martial. Physical players like McT or Maguire can use their strength to block the opponent even if they didn't have a good first touch.
2. Lose the ball after you have it under control - most of our players are ok, occasionally some will lose it, especially the more attacking players, because they need to take more risks.
3. Lose the ball in close quarters or when pressed by multiple players - this is something most our players struggle against, probably our best are Shaw and Sancho. Malacia showed nice promise, but early to say.
4. Lose the ball with a poor pass - DDG, McT, AWB, Lindelof, Rashford, Elanga, Bruno are all suspect. This however is partially due to poor movement of the team, so I think we will see the biggest improvement here with ETH.
 
A-man said:
You have a point, not being press resistant doesn’t equal poor player or not being important. However being able to handle press is a key factor in ETH’s football. Also, I think the football has changed a lot in jut the last few years. Now there are many teams in the PL who are skilled at pressing high.
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I agree. There seem to be a rose tinted glass attitude here when it comes to our favourite player. No player is the perfect all round player, each has flaws of some kind. Players build their game around their strongest skills.
I’d like to think the manager has a plan that is built around everyone’s strength and we can use it effectively to punish these high pressing teams. There is a weakness to be exploited in every tactical approach in football.
 
Being press resistant just doesn't exist.

No one is immune to press at all.

Also, there's more than one way to beat a pressing team or individual, likewise there is more than one way to press as an individual or team.

Seen Sancho and Eriksens names mentioned, they are no more 'press resistant' than a clogger at the back who passes it sideways every time an opposing player approaches them.
Strictly speaking a player passing it sideways is dealing with the press effectively and so can be classed as this imaginary 'press resistant'.

It's a bs term that really means very little and is often used to describe players who are just moving into space or who can turn quickly on the ball.

It needs to die in fire along with double pivot and people using expected goals over the course of 90 minutes.
 
We only have two players comfortable under pressure. Martial and Shaw. Maguire, on form, is, too. They can keep the ball with a player on them.

Martinez and Malacia - depending on how they settle - will join them.

Sancho has the potential to be but is still a bit too weak. Fred, due to his inconsistent touch, is so-so. If he actually controls the ball, he can usually keep it. Rashford is iffy.

There are youth players who can keep the ball under pressure but I doubt we'll see the majority of them. Galbraith, Mejbri, Iqbal, Mainoo, Gore, Garnacho, Fernandez.

That's it. We need more players with the strength to hold off an opposition player and agility to pull a la pelopina turn away from them. That's why Frenkie de Jong is vital.

We also need some players who can dribble/beat their man but that's for another thread.
 
McT is quite good when he’s in motion and getting pressed, he’s a good and strong runner with the ball, often getting himself out of situations. However if he is static being closed down and looking for a pass he looks like a deer in the headlights. Just panics and can’t make a decision.

There aren’t many in the team but I would pretty much agree with the op. Shaw, Sancho and Martial on a good day.
 
After yesterdays performance, Malacia looked pretty damn press resistant. Some situations under real pressure, he was very composed.
 
Champ said:
Being press resistant just doesn't exist.

No one is immune to press at all.

Also, there's more than one way to beat a pressing team or individual, likewise there is more than one way to press as an individual or team.

Seen Sancho and Eriksens names mentioned, they are no more 'press resistant' than a clogger at the back who passes it sideways every time an opposing player approaches them.
Strictly speaking a player passing it sideways is dealing with the press effectively and so can be classed as this imaginary 'press resistant'.

It's a bs term that really means very little and is often used to describe players who are just moving into space or who can turn quickly on the ball.

It needs to die in fire along with double pivot and people using expected goals over the course of 90 minutes.
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absolutely right.
 
Champ said:
Being press resistant just doesn't exist.

No one is immune to press at all.

Also, there's more than one way to beat a pressing team or individual, likewise there is more than one way to press as an individual or team.

Seen Sancho and Eriksens names mentioned, they are no more 'press resistant' than a clogger at the back who passes it sideways every time an opposing player approaches them.
Strictly speaking a player passing it sideways is dealing with the press effectively and so can be classed as this imaginary 'press resistant'.

It's a bs term that really means very little and is often used to describe players who are just moving into space or who can turn quickly on the ball.

It needs to die in fire along with double pivot and people using expected goals over the course of 90 minutes.
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I think I disagree with this. A clogger at the back who constantly passes the ball sideways hasn’t necessarily “dealt with the press”. Very often that’s what a press is designed to do - hurry the CB’s pass, trap the FB against the touch line, block off his passing lanes, pressure the ball and win it in the opponents final third.

You’re arguing that press resistance doesn’t exist, but you’ve actually provided a very good example of player that is not press resistant and the problems his abdication of responsibility on the ball can cause for their team.

You then wrote a definition of press resistance that, while not comprehensive, is nevertheless accurate (“players who are just moving into space or who can turn quickly on the ball”). If a term - like press resistant - allows you to use 2 words rather 15, I’d say it’s actually quite useful.

Is it the term itself that you don’t like? Or do you think that it’s frequently misused?
 
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Of course press resistant is a valid term. It's a very easy concept to grasp.

Champ said:
Strictly speaking a player passing it sideways is dealing with the press effectively and so can be classed as this imaginary 'press resistant'.
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No, it's not.
 
Cascarino said:
Of course press resistant is a valid term. It's a very easy concept to grasp.



No, it's not.
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It's not a concept to grasp.

Being 'press resistant' doesn't exist as a concept.

And why isn't playing the ball sideways dealing with the press? Explain please.
 
Daydreamer said:
I think I disagree with this. A clogger at the back who constantly passes the ball sideways hasn’t necessarily “dealt with the press”. Very often that’s what a press is designed to do - hurry the CB’s pass, trap the FB against the touch line, block off his passing lanes, pressure the ball and win it in the opponents final third.

You’re arguing that press resistance doesn’t exist, but you’ve actually provided a very good example of player that is not press resistant and the problems his abdication of responsibility on the ball can cause for their team.

You then wrote a definition of press resistance that, while not comprehensive, is nevertheless accurate (“players who are just moving into space or who can turn quickly on the ball”). If a term - like press resistant - allows you to use 2 words rather 15, I’d say it’s actually quite useful.

Is it the term itself that you don’t like? Or do you think that it’s frequently misused?
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By turning into space, or playing the ball into space/sideways you aren't immune from the press, you are just evading the press.

Call me pedantic but that doesn't make a player resistant to press, that just doesn't exist. No one is immune from press, some may deal with it better, but they are most definitely not immune or 'resistant'.

It's a fanciful term often used by armchair fans to make themselves sound knowledgeable, rather like 'double pivot'.
 
First they came for “patterns of play” and now they are coming for “press resistant” what will be next?
 
Champ said:
By turning into space, or playing the ball into space/sideways you aren't immune from the press, you are just evading the press.

Call me pedantic but that doesn't make a player resistant to press, that just doesn't exist. No one is immune from press, some may deal with it better, but they are most definitely not immune or 'resistant'.

It's a fanciful term often used by armchair fans to make themselves sound knowledgeable, rather like 'double pivot'.
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Those terms are ubiquitous amongst football coaches. It’s because it’s easier to convey concepts with a couple words as opposed to writing paragraphs.

Ignoring that the question the op posed was “most press resistant” so your pedantry doesn’t make sense from any angle, do you understand what the term playmaker means? Out to in? In the hole? Congratulations you are capable of understanding the intent phrases that don’t work as literal translations if you’d just apply yourself a little more

As for the question you asked me, if a player immediately passes the ball sideways every time upon receiving it then no they’re not dealing with the press effectively. Often times a press will be employed with the intention of forcing a player into a certain pass, in which case the recipient will be surrounded and unable to play the ball effectively. If an entire team employs a tactic of immediately passing the ball sideways when receiving it then they’re clearly not dealing with the press well.
 
Cascarino said:
Those terms are ubiquitous amongst football coaches. It’s because it’s easier to convey concepts with a couple words as opposed to writing paragraphs.

Ignoring that the question the op posed was “most press resistant” so your pedantry doesn’t make sense from any angle, do you understand what the term playmaker means? Out to in? In the hole? Congratulations you are capable of understanding the intent phrases that don’t work as literal translations if you’d just apply yourself a little more

As for the question you asked me, if a player immediately passes the ball sideways every time upon receiving it then no they’re not dealing with the press effectively. Often times a press will be employed with the intention of forcing a player into a certain pass, in which case the recipient will be surrounded and unable to play the ball effectively. If an entire team employs a tactic of immediately passing the ball sideways when receiving it then they’re clearly not dealing with the press well.
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You make a good point, but then there is more than one way to play football.

Is press resistant just a player turning away from the press? If so that's not press resistant, that a player who turns well.

By playing a simple pass and then making a move into space to receive the ball again, you are bypassing the press, which actually is a more efficient and effective way of beating the press.

There's a reason why nearly every team plays out from the back now.

So actually yes, by playing the ball sideways you are in fact dealing with the press, so long as you are not static straight after playing the pass.
 
A press resistant player is one that isn't fazed by being pressed, to the extent where their decision making is impacted, i.e. they can no longer play the right ball. Someone that just takes the easy pass when pressed isn't press resistant, they are literally succumbing to the press and playing the pass that the press was designed to promote. A press resistant player will find a way to still make the ideal pass in that scenario, by using body feints, close control etc.
 
Champ said:
You make a good point, but then there is more than one way to play football.

Is press resistant just a player turning away from the press? If so that's not press resistant, that a player who turns well.

By playing a simple pass and then making a move into space to receive the ball again, you are bypassing the press, which actually is a more efficient and effective way of beating the press.

There's a reason why nearly every team plays out from the back now.

So actually yes, by playing the ball sideways you are in fact dealing with the press, so long as you are not static straight after playing the pass.
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A press resistant player is one who resists the tactic of pressing. If the sideways pass is to player who will then be under increasing pressure and even more likely to lose the ball… then he hasn’t resisted the press.

If he merely turns away from the press, slowing the attack down, facing his own goal and giving time for the opposition to swarm him further… then he hasn’t resisted the press.

If he passes and moves into space to receive the ball once more, thus bypassing his marker…. then he has resisted the press.

I would say only the last of your examples is actual press resistance.
 
Champ said:
By turning into space, or playing the ball into space/sideways you aren't immune from the press, you are just evading the press.

Call me pedantic but that doesn't make a player resistant to press, that just doesn't exist. No one is immune from press, some may deal with it better, but they are most definitely not immune or 'resistant'.

It's a fanciful term often used by armchair fans to make themselves sound knowledgeable, rather like 'double pivot'.
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its not just pedantic it's being obtuse as well. Obviously there's a difference between players ability and what they can achieve on the ball when pressed. If you can only go backwards into a big space, you're not press as press resistant and somebody who can turn away from trouble and move forwards. It's a weird point to try and make especially when attempting to do it in a condescending manner
 
Steven Seagull said:
its not just pedantic it's being obtuse as well. Obviously there's a difference between players ability and what they can achieve on the ball when pressed. If you can only go backwards into a big space, you're not press as press resistant and somebody who can turn away from trouble and move forwards. It's a weird point to try and make especially when attempting to do it in a condescending manner
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I’d go as far as to say he’s not actually being pedantic as that we requires you to be correct, even if only on a technical/semantic level. However, he’s conflating the words “resistance” and “immunity” and arguing that as no one is immune to pressing, press resistance does not exist.

No one has stated that players can be immune to pressing. That’s why the term is “press resistant”.
 
Daydreamer said:
A press resistant player is one who resists the tactic of pressing. If the sideways pass is to player who will then be under increasing pressure and even more likely to lose the ball… then he hasn’t resisted the press.

If he merely turns away from the press, slowing the attack down, facing his own goal and giving time for the opposition to swarm him further… then he hasn’t resisted the press.

If he passes and moves into space to receive the ball once more, thus bypassing his marker…. then he has resisted the press.

I would say only the last of your examples is actual press resistance.
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Which is what I have been saying.

No player is resistant to press, you can't be resistant to something that happens whether you like it or not.

You can deal with the press well for sure, and there are multiple ways of doing this, as I have said by passing and moving, a simple pass sideways then a move into space, (this is the reason why nearly all teams play out from the back, it's the most effective way of dealing with the press),
You can go long, thereby beating the press and hope to win the second balls, again can be very effective to beat the press.
You can have your midfielders face their own goal and look for body feints/clever turns to beat the press, a less effective way of dealing with the press.

In all situations no one player is press resistant, it's just doesn't exist, as what you are essentially saying is a 'press resistant' player is immune to the press. They aren't, they may deal with it slightly better, but they are not resistant to it.
 
Daydreamer said:
I’d go as far as to say he’s not actually being pedantic as that we requires you to be correct, even if only on a technical/semantic level. However, he’s conflating the words “resistance” and “immunity” and arguing that as no one is immune to pressing, press resistance does not exist.

No one has stated that players can be immune to pressing. That’s why the term is “press resistant”.
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I think you've got it right.

I'm not being deliberately obtuse, it's just there's no one way if being 'press resistant' hence it's impossible to then be resistant to something that will always happen.

Certain players deal with the press better, but they are not immune to be pressed,

The literal definition of resistant is immune. To be immune to something or to fight back against something, neither of which is possible when you have a player pressing you.

Hence press resistance doesn't exist as a concept.
 
Steven Seagull said:
its not just pedantic it's being obtuse as well. Obviously there's a difference between players ability and what they can achieve on the ball when pressed. If you can only go backwards into a big space, you're not press as press resistant and somebody who can turn away from trouble and move forwards. It's a weird point to try and make especially when attempting to do it in a condescending manner
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Saying a player is press resistant is condescending to me.

It means little, and appears to mean different things to different people, hence is a false concept with no definitive meaning.

Why is going backwards such an issue? Why is that not press resistant?
 
Champ said:
Saying a player is press resistant is condescending to me.

It means little, and appears to mean different things to different people, hence is a false concept with no definitive meaning.

Why is going backwards such an issue? Why is that not press resistant?
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It is and it isn't, innit?
 
Champ said:
Saying a player is press resistant is condescending to me.

It means little, and appears to mean different things to different people, hence is a false concept with no definitive meaning.

Why is going backwards such an issue? Why is that not press resistant?
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Ridiculous. Everyone knows what is meant by the phrase ‘press resistant’, dealing with the press well.
Some keepers are more press resistant than others, they aren’t more press resistant by passing sideways or running backwards, they are calm under pressure, good at feinting, comfortable on both feet, aware of their teammates positioning - all of which are necessary to deal with the press effectively.

Players can be press resistant in different ways obviously, like Bernardo Silva compared to say Matic, very different players but both press resistant, that is why the term is so useful imo.
 
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Champ said:
Saying a player is press resistant is condescending to me.

It means little, and appears to mean different things to different people, hence is a false concept with no definitive meaning.

Why is going backwards such an issue? Why is that not press resistant?
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If going backwards forces that player to then boot the ball up the pitch and hence give it away (i.e. the goal of the pressing team), then that is not resisting the press, it's doing exactly what they want. If you are playing a backwards pass to a player who can actually retain possession, then there is nothing wrong with it.
 
Champ said:
Saying a player is press resistant is condescending to me.

It means little, and appears to mean different things to different people, hence is a false concept with no definitive meaning.

Why is going backwards such an issue? Why is that not press resistant?
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Because that’s how you end up playing shite football against pressing teams.
 
Tiki-Taka said:
Ridiculous. Everyone knows what is meant by the phrase ‘press resistant’, dealing with the press well.
Some keepers are more press resistant than others, they aren’t more press resistant by passing sideways or running backwards, they are calm under pressure, good at feinting, comfortable on both feet, aware of their teammates positioning - all of which are necessary to deal with the press effectively.

Players can be press resistant in different ways obviously, like Bernardo Silva compared to say Matic, very different players but both press resistant, that is why the term is so useful imo.
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deal with the press effectively

So not press resistant then, just someone who deals with the press well.

You said it yourself. Press resistant would insinuate it's someone who cannot be pressed at all, yet here they are dealing with the press, so they are being pressed.
 
Champ said:
deal with the press effectively

So not press resistant then, just someone who deals with the press well.

You said it yourself. Press resistant would insinuate it's someone who cannot be pressed at all, yet here they are dealing with the press, so they are being pressed.
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Someone who effectively resists the press, perhaps?
 
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Tiki-Taka said:
Players can be press resistant in different ways obviously, like Bernardo Silva compared to say Matic, very different players but both press resistant, that is why the term is so useful imo
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This some use their hips and bums, some their upper body, some feints and then you have the dribblers.
 
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