I’m not sure if we should.
Our midfield seems to be a perennial problem
- Thread starter rollingstoned1
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Many still don’t understand that the path to dominance and actual progress comes through control of the midfield, not the attack.
You still see a large number of posters here say that Kane or a top striker puts us in the title race, but stick Kane up front on Sunday and we still get dominated. Players like Bruno are worshipped around here for playing largely sloppy games but getting a goal or an assist when that line of thinking is always going to cost you against teams like City. Technical quality in touch, passing, and dribbling is vital in the modern game. We’ve lacked these for years barring the occasional player (Matic for a season, Pogba pre-injury issues) but have never even sought to field an entire midfield that can comfortably do all three, and then wonder why we have 35% possession against top level pressing sides. I mean Christ it took until half way through this year for people to finally agree that McTominay isn’t United quality. Scott McTominay! Who largely had bottom of the division level passing stats year after year.
When you watch Pep stack technical midfielders year after year in the transfer window and then watch us chase flashy attackers or a singular big name (we are doing it again this summer it seems) instead of looking to completely overhaul the midfield with better profiles, it shows why we are so far behind.
You still see a large number of posters here say that Kane or a top striker puts us in the title race, but stick Kane up front on Sunday and we still get dominated. Players like Bruno are worshipped around here for playing largely sloppy games but getting a goal or an assist when that line of thinking is always going to cost you against teams like City. Technical quality in touch, passing, and dribbling is vital in the modern game. We’ve lacked these for years barring the occasional player (Matic for a season, Pogba pre-injury issues) but have never even sought to field an entire midfield that can comfortably do all three, and then wonder why we have 35% possession against top level pressing sides. I mean Christ it took until half way through this year for people to finally agree that McTominay isn’t United quality. Scott McTominay! Who largely had bottom of the division level passing stats year after year.
When you watch Pep stack technical midfielders year after year in the transfer window and then watch us chase flashy attackers or a singular big name (we are doing it again this summer it seems) instead of looking to completely overhaul the midfield with better profiles, it shows why we are so far behind.
I agree that we need to be more strategic in our long-term planning, but the problem is that we have daft twats for owners who only care about squeezing cash out of the club and appear to be content with being a top four club. Good enough to make top four, but not good enough to challenge for the title, let alone win it.
Our front line worries me than our midfield, but since this thread is about our midfield let's stick to that.
Our anchors in midfield are Casemiro and Bruno and it's pretty hard to argue with the quality of those two. The problem is that the dropoff from those two is pretty steep:
Eriksen was procured on a free transfer so great business there, but his physical decline is undeniable. Time to make him a squad man.
Fred isn't quite shite, but the few great performances he puts in are marred by a lot of poor performances. Squad man.
McTominay isn't up to the job of a midfielder. Maybe he could be a third choice 9, but in truth we need to sell him. Sell the man.
Donny was something of a punt and it hasn't worked out well, though I wouldn't mind elevating him in the rotation after we sell McTominay. Squad man.
Sabitzer will want a 2-3 year contract, but I don't think that's a great idea. Let him go back to Bayern.
I haven't seen enough of our younger midfielders to know who's ready and who's not ready for the first team. Hopefully at least one!
It appears Mount is on his way to OT, which I welcome. I see him more as a Bruno backup than a true 8 -- an alternative to Frenkie -- but if ETH has a vision for him as an 8 but with the flexibility to come in for Bruno as Bruno's minutes start to get better managed, so be it. I still see another central midfielder being crucial to success next season and many of us have talked about Rice. Rice could play with Casemiro, each taking turns being the central midfielder that probes deep into the opposition half.
And if we do have Bruno, Rice and Casemiro starting in midfield, with Mount, Fred, Eriksen and Donny in that order providing cover with 1-2 younger players for deep cover, we have a proper midfield.
Our front line worries me than our midfield, but since this thread is about our midfield let's stick to that.
Our anchors in midfield are Casemiro and Bruno and it's pretty hard to argue with the quality of those two. The problem is that the dropoff from those two is pretty steep:
Eriksen was procured on a free transfer so great business there, but his physical decline is undeniable. Time to make him a squad man.
Fred isn't quite shite, but the few great performances he puts in are marred by a lot of poor performances. Squad man.
McTominay isn't up to the job of a midfielder. Maybe he could be a third choice 9, but in truth we need to sell him. Sell the man.
Donny was something of a punt and it hasn't worked out well, though I wouldn't mind elevating him in the rotation after we sell McTominay. Squad man.
Sabitzer will want a 2-3 year contract, but I don't think that's a great idea. Let him go back to Bayern.
I haven't seen enough of our younger midfielders to know who's ready and who's not ready for the first team. Hopefully at least one!
It appears Mount is on his way to OT, which I welcome. I see him more as a Bruno backup than a true 8 -- an alternative to Frenkie -- but if ETH has a vision for him as an 8 but with the flexibility to come in for Bruno as Bruno's minutes start to get better managed, so be it. I still see another central midfielder being crucial to success next season and many of us have talked about Rice. Rice could play with Casemiro, each taking turns being the central midfielder that probes deep into the opposition half.
And if we do have Bruno, Rice and Casemiro starting in midfield, with Mount, Fred, Eriksen and Donny in that order providing cover with 1-2 younger players for deep cover, we have a proper midfield.
In Moyes’ defence, it was report that he asked to see the Club’s scouting report on Thiago. The reply was allegedly “What’s a scouting report?”
We can't buy our way out of this midfield problem (but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try). We need to keep Greenwood(i'm not happy with what he did but he was a kid and if he's reformable and learns I'd keep him (I think he'd be amazing under ETH) and forget Kane. Spend that money on a top midfielder or two. And fix the right back situation.
I suspect the reason we aren't in for Caicedo is because Kobbie Mainoo is a very similar player...potentially better and then theres Zidane Iqbal(already playing for Iraq). I believe Daniel Gore will be top drawer as well once he grows a little bit more.
I suspect the reason we aren't in for Caicedo is because Kobbie Mainoo is a very similar player...potentially better and then theres Zidane Iqbal(already playing for Iraq). I believe Daniel Gore will be top drawer as well once he grows a little bit more.
One of the issues is the money, or lack of it, so maybe we need to think more radically
Who is our most valuable and saleable asset, that would be Rashford
He's been our best player this season, but I think we all know he's never going to be good enough as a CF, on a regular basis, so he's a LW and soon to be in serious competition with someone who a lot of us think may be a generational talent , so can we or should we think the unthinkable?
Who is our most valuable and saleable asset, that would be Rashford
He's been our best player this season, but I think we all know he's never going to be good enough as a CF, on a regular basis, so he's a LW and soon to be in serious competition with someone who a lot of us think may be a generational talent , so can we or should we think the unthinkable?
This is also another issue and it’s not little in games of fine margins.
Money is NEVER the issue.
How much did we spend on Fellaini, Mata, 2x Sch, Pogba, Fred, Matic. Carrick was the ONLY qualified starter (in a decade?) who last for seasons after seasons, until someone decided to put Park + Rafael as MF, or Giggs + Scholes.
But I do admit that we fail on Academy development, when McTom and Fletcher are the only graduated MF.
We're not talking about he past, we're talking about the present, the team has a lot of needs and there's not enough money available to meet those needs
It’s straying OT, but as you brouget it up.
In the Rashford player thread, the stats were presented to show that his golden phase, only lasted for two and a half, or three month period.
All but a few of his goals came in that time.
He’s been pretty average to dire for the last two or three months of the season.
If anything, Rashford has resorted to being a lead weight again and there would never be a better time to cash in, if that’s what we needed to do to, to raise transfer funds and safely navigate FFP.
However, with the meagre resources we have in our attacking department ( Sancho failing to impress and looking out of his depth, Martial being a dead loss who needs to be shifted out, Antony not exactly delivering, despite the excitement generated from him playing, etc), we can’t afford to lose Rashford just yet.
The funds need to be prioritised for at least one solid, CM player in addition to Mount ( if he comes) and at least one natural goal scoring striker.
The balance in the team has to be restored and midfield fundamentally strengthened over the next couple of seasons.
The core, meaning a player to sit alongside Casemiro, or deputise for him, must come first.
Then we can look at upgrading on an erratic and physically weak Bruno …and more so on Eriksen, who, with his age and medical condition must be coming close to playing at the top level.
How quickly ETH can progress this, we’ll have to wait and see, but I don’t think we’ll get more than another season of good value out of Casemiro, so there isn’t much time.
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I think on paper our midfield is the strongest its been since around 2008. The problem is Cassimero and Eriksen are only going to decline. Casemiro, noticeably looked more sluggish towards the end of the season and Eriksen wasn't the same after he came back from his injury. These issues are only going to get worse next year as they are both a year older and we can't go into it expecting them both to be rolled out every game. Fred and Mctominay are both solid players, but they are huge drop of in quality to Cassimero and Eriksen.
Mount would be a good competition for Eriksen. But he is likely to costs around 50 million, where does that leave us in terms of a striker and a goalkeeper? not to mention back up for Casemiro. We had a net spend of 200 million last summer, and even without the leeches we don't have the kind of turnover to do that again this summer and if we do keep spending like that there will be financial issues down the line you can't break the bank every summer!
Mount would be a good competition for Eriksen. But he is likely to costs around 50 million, where does that leave us in terms of a striker and a goalkeeper? not to mention back up for Casemiro. We had a net spend of 200 million last summer, and even without the leeches we don't have the kind of turnover to do that again this summer and if we do keep spending like that there will be financial issues down the line you can't break the bank every summer!
It's 80% tactical and 20% technical ability. So I do believe City have better players on the ball, but we are not that far off. The way City play football, how players position themselves on the pitch to open passing lanes, which decisions they take and how much horizontal they play - this is down to coaching (and possibly having players who understand tactical nuances).
When you watch how Brighton keep the ball and beat press - they are very well drilled team but they don't look a level above us technically. Although I do believe you need to have one player that is super efficient at beating press like Caicedo for Brighton. A keeper that can pass the ball is also a difference.
Don't they still manage to do that when Caicedo is playing right back though?
I think it's more coaching emphasis and players in general. So many have been brought in at City over the years, some would look ordinary just placed into another side.
I think it's still OK, similarly how Shaw was doing it for us for the last few years (he was the only reliable outlet on the ball to drive the ball from defense to attack). But I do agree with general point you made.
No way, we have had much stronger midfields with Carrick. Best post SAF? Sure no doubt. But we still are basically a 2 man midfield with no one good enough to dictate play.
Our technical ability is poor, we dont have a single really technical player. We have a handful of pretty technical players, which is lightyears behind city.
I disagree. Shaw, Martinez, Sancho are all first tier and have nothing to be ashamed of compared to City players. Casemiro, Eriksen, Antony, Rashford, Bruno Wan Bissaka, Dalot, Varane and Lindelof are easily tier 2 but still good. Only concerns are about Fred and McTominay but as they are squad players it's not a big issue.
It's just we don't have any system / tactics implemented so our players look poor at times but I am 100% if those individuals were put in City team they would look very good.
After a decade of terrible flops in our midfield. This season we seem to heading back in the right direction..
New signings Casemiro and Eriksen have transformed the midfield. Alongside Bruno they have been excellent in comparision to previous years.
Moving forward though IMO Eriksen should only be a squad player. A top midfielder is required this summer. Maybe two.
New signings Casemiro and Eriksen have transformed the midfield. Alongside Bruno they have been excellent in comparision to previous years.
Moving forward though IMO Eriksen should only be a squad player. A top midfielder is required this summer. Maybe two.
I agree that those 3 are probably our most technical players, top tier of technical? No way, but still strong, like 8 out of 10.
That second group are not much above average, good, not great, 6/7 out of 10.
Overall poor for a team competing for trophies.
Compared to City it's miles behind.
We can argue but overall my point is technique of our players is not keeping us from playing better football as much as lack of tactics/coaching compared to City/Brighton/Arsenal.
I see it in exactly the same way. Plus I'd argue, that the other poster has a different understanding of "technical level" than you (and me at least). I mean, Eriksen, Rashford, Antony - they might not be joga bonito skills galore and quick feet like Ronaldo but lets not act as if all of Citys players are such specimen. To me, there isn't much in terms of technical ability between Diaz and Lindelof. Or De Bruyne and Eriksen. The City counterparts are better players but not because they are more technical or could do things with the ball our players couldn't. The overall technical level of United is pretty on par with the better clubs around Europe I'd say. And on par doesn't mean we are above any of these, but not too far off. Obviously players like AWB (in the dark days) or Fred and McTom make it easy to read it into us and we are certainly lacking one or two great players in terms of dribbling and technique. But the main focus should be the collective - as you said, Brighton is able to pull it off. Swansea was a couple of years ago. When you are well organized, your players have it easier because of it. We look worse than we are because for such a long time, we were playing as individuals against teams.
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Oh it is limiting us a lot. Our technical ability is causing us to have no attacking players good in tight places, almost no one on the team is comfortable on the ball, and our passing is just way off the level it should be.
How do you guys rate Sancho? Now Sancho is top tier in technical ability
A player who in 2 years has never had a good game in 90 minutes. Player who in 2 year period had to be sent away mid season for non injury issue for 3 months. Sancho is the least moment player we have. In that like Bruno who is a moment player, (who is not what a top club needs) , Bruno has more moments than Sancho ever has. For Sancho you cross your fingers he does the basic things in a game.
Only Martinez is in elite levels in technical abilities. His presence alone in 8 months has transformed how we play from the back and HE DELIVERS in each and single game. His bad is extremely visible.
Shaw is a level below.
The rest are just hit or miss a game players. You never know what you will get from them.
Collectively City is a few levels above us, but their technical ability is just a level above I'd say. So all things considered we can actually play much better/technical/possession based football even with this bunch of players. We will not reach City level I agree, but I don't think we need as we're also already quite good in transition - we just need to add another dimension to our game.
City also got rid of top technical players in Cancelo and Zinchenko and it doesn't seem to affect them at all. This is much more than having the best of the best technical players. I really don't see that as an issue.
Bruno played two games in midfield where he looked superb composed on the ball, such a contrast on how he sometimes plays when he's rushing things. Same applies to Casemiro who started playing many more high risk passess in second half of the season. We as a team are not coached to keep the ball and ETH went for pragmatic approach this season (can't blame him but this is a bit disappointing). Again, I definitely don't think technical ability is keeping us from playing possession-based football. I'd say lack of legs in Casemiro and Eriksen is a far more pressing issue for this compared to their technical ability. It's just Gondogan/Rodri/De Bruyne/Bernardo are both technical AND mobile.
Well it's definitely not lack of technical ability that keeps him from being an effective player.How do you guys rate Sancho? Now Sancho is top tier in technical ability
A player who in 2 years has never had a good game in 90 minutes. Player who in 2 year period had to be sent away mid season for non injury issue for 3 months. Sancho is the least moment player we have. In that like Bruno who is a moment player, (who is not what a top club needs) , Bruno has more moments than Sancho ever has. For Sancho you cross your fingers he does the basic things in a game.
Only Martinez is in elite levels in technical abilities. His presence alone in 8 months has transformed how we play from the back and HE DELIVERS in each and single game. His bad is extremely visible.
Shaw is a level below.
The rest are just hit or miss a game players. You never know what you will get from them.
Why do we want moments players?How do you guys rate Sancho? Now Sancho is top tier in technical ability
A player who in 2 years has never had a good game in 90 minutes. Player who in 2 year period had to be sent away mid season for non injury issue for 3 months. Sancho is the least moment player we have. In that like Bruno who is a moment player, (who is not what a top club needs) , Bruno has more moments than Sancho ever has. For Sancho you cross your fingers he does the basic things in a game.
Only Martinez is in elite levels in technical abilities. His presence alone in 8 months has transformed how we play from the back and HE DELIVERS in each and single game. His bad is extremely visible.
Shaw is a level below.
The rest are just hit or miss a game players. You never know what you will get from them.
It's not about skills galore it's about the core basics, touch, short passing, being able to move with the ball effectively and in tight spaces. We such at these compared to City.
It’s all, coaching, tactics, midfield/teamchemistry and above all technical ability. City’s players even if being slightly better technically makes a lot of difference. Some are more than just slightly better. If technical ability wouldn’t matter as much as you guys claim then Philipps would be playing much much more for them. Equally they wouldn’t have dropped the already highly technical Foden for the hidden gem Grealish who they bought for peanuts.
A good system with average and only a couple of above average to (very) good players will get you top 6 occasionally.
Aaverage system with average but also a number of good/very good players will get you top 2-4 every other season.
A good system with 16 players when most of them are either good or very good will get you the big trophies most of the time.
You can continue writing essays on downplaying City players’ technical ability but that doesn’t change their actual very high level of it.
The only thing that I'm downplaying is the difference between City and current United level which is not so big to explain a huge difference on how both teams keep the ball and play football. City tactics mean each player on the ball and under pressure has a few short and mid passing options while in our case everytime Casemiro/Bruno/Eriksen get the ball there's one passing option being closed down in midfield and everyone else start running toward the goal. I am exaggerating this just to explain the idea.
You can definitely have a system in which players deficiencies are not that exposed as in our team. Not everyone in Brighton team is on such a high level and still they average over 60% possession. On the other hand, having excellent technical players is not enough to play possession-based football. Another thing is how good those players can execute tactics and I have some doubts about that aspect if it comes to our players. But years without proper coaching created a lot of "technical debt" if you wish.
Again, I don't think we need to reach City level, we are a good team in transition, it's just this tool is lacking for us.
Meanwhile, reports and speculation continue to grow that Caicedo will be going to Chelsea.
Note that Kante will probably be leaving in this summer"s clear out.
The transfer window opens in weeks time.
I'll be very disappointed if we haven't got 2 players already lined up and ready to sign in the first few days.
Note that Kante will probably be leaving in this summer"s clear out.
The transfer window opens in weeks time.
I'll be very disappointed if we haven't got 2 players already lined up and ready to sign in the first few days.
I'm not sure a many United players makes that city team playing for pep, Shaw and Martinez are the only 2 that come to mind.
You keep bringing the same point, I already admitted this might very well be the case. What I'm interested in is how much coaching us into being an actual team will help us to keep the ball and create chances with possession oriented game. Because one thing is for certain, we're not replacing 8/10 outfield players next 2 years.
I'd say coaching can elevate us more than hoping we land De Jong kind of players in every position to match City technical ability. Because again we don't need to match their level as we have other tools that work for us.
I think it's very difficult to say where we can go with these players if they are coached well.
Well speculation is all we do here. But I think this is important factor not mentioned very often. Technical aspect is important but I don't think Pep chooses his players just based on that. I'd bet he would've hated Nani despite him being on excellent technical level.
True he would hate Nani, Pep likes intelligent patient players, he's not a fan of players who just run.
Selling Rashford would mean needing to also replace him unless we're going into the season with Sancho, Antony and Garnacho. 1 has been a dud, the other very hit or miss and the other is 18 years old, who is more than likely going to have ups and downs.
As you can see even from this forum, people are really duped by moments players. It's United DNA probably. We need solid players who give 7-10 performance every week. Rodri or Licha style.
But we are fascinated with numbers, flicks, instead of using those metrics as a byproduct of good players.
As a club a mindset shift is absolutely needed to achieve sustainable success.
What is Sancho good at technically? Can you list them here and if possible attach gameplay evidence.
The guy can't dribble, can't outrun a defender, not that he possess Riquelme ball shielding attributes. There is a very big reason why he is not an effective footballer. It has to do with his talents and attributes.
Nah I think you hit the nail on the head here speaking about his "technical skills". He isn't fast enough and not good at shielding the ball. Probably should add poor heading ability.
The last few years of fergies reign, the midfield was a perennial problem, pretty much every summer we went into going are we finally going to buy a midfielder
That is true, I only said post SAF because I can't remember the years of which midfilders we used. My point is that some of Carrick's midfields were better.
There is no maybe about it we need two and one has to be more sound technically