United have a few players that literally kill off any chance of a possession based approach. Sadly DDG is a huge culprit for this, you can sense the team is reluctant to pass it back to him and he himself looks nervous on the ball.
Our midfield seems to be a perennial problem
- Thread starter rollingstoned1
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We lost the fa cup to a team playing a CB in midfield and their most creative midfielder out wide.
In fact, city have been successful doing this for some time.
I do wonder if we could actually make do with what we've got. Heck, we could match City in shape:
DDG
AWB Varane Shaw
Lindelof -- Casemiro
Bruno -- Fred -- Eriksen -- Sancho
---- Rashford ----
Wouldn't that resolve Eriksen's biggest issues? Shifts Bruno to an area where he has more freedom and will hurt us less if he loses the ball.
I think our midfield could use better and that's why we're actively trying to sign two more. But I feel we are lacking in bits across the entire Team, not just one area in particular
In fact, city have been successful doing this for some time.
I do wonder if we could actually make do with what we've got. Heck, we could match City in shape:
DDG
AWB Varane Shaw
Lindelof -- Casemiro
Bruno -- Fred -- Eriksen -- Sancho
---- Rashford ----
Wouldn't that resolve Eriksen's biggest issues? Shifts Bruno to an area where he has more freedom and will hurt us less if he loses the ball.
I think our midfield could use better and that's why we're actively trying to sign two more. But I feel we are lacking in bits across the entire Team, not just one area in particular
De Gea had 35 passes, to which only 17 were accurate = 18 times he lost possession. (not 20)
While Bruno made 42 passes, to which only 27 were accurate. = 15 times..
De Gea lost possession only 3 times more than our talisman Bruno. Admittedly, yesterday was a very poor game by De Gea, now that's put into perspective what Bruno brings to this team.
Great post. Agree entirely
But I don't understand your comparison because De Gea is a GK and Bruno is a creative AM/CM.
Of course a creative outfield player will/should lose the ball more than a GK, that should go without saying
Also some stats differ, 20 is correct depending on which source you use, all measured slightly differently I am sure
I’m not disputing your point. Ten Hag might see Mount as a ball playing midfielder, though.
I think we’d see a huge improvement by bringing in a better goalkeeper and somebody like Timber alone. Add in more energy and athleticism in midfield, as well as a proper striker, and you’re on the right track.
Yup. Bruno likewise
And we don't hyany players stand out good at it.
Of course the better players like Bruno are part of this. It's not just misplacing passes, it's also how they can't actually do much against a press besides force it behind. As much as it pains to say Eriksen is another who keeps getting completely neutralised by City's press. He cant carry the ball or keep it when there's pressure. It's easy to point fingers at the most obvious targets but it's not like the better names look any less erratic even when De Gea isn't shitting the bed. Now is not the time to play favourites.
We have bought good midfielders. The problem is that we expect one player to get us out of a mess.
A midfield of Casemiro, Pogba and Di Maria for example would have cooked.
A midfield of Casemiro, Pogba and Di Maria for example would have cooked.
All you have to do is change the name here and it pretty much works for our 3 main midfielders. Personaly I think we need more than one midfielder, I’d look for two starters and then some youth back up to sit with Eriksen and either Fred or McT and shunt Bruno out to a wing somewhere and just let him go wherever as long as there are 3 others running midfield.
The three we have just don’t compliment each other and aren’t capable of covering each others weaknesses. So heck if that is Rice and mount for a while until Cas Age’s out or somehow DeJong decides he’s had enough or there is a respawn of him or Carrick then so be it.
Spot on.
Just look at yesterday. Ortega is their second choice goalkeeper, and he plays like centre back in possession. Just as comfortable as Ederson on the ball. It makes it impossible to press them, because they essentially have an extra outfield player creating overloads.
I was among the few who realized this was a problem even back in like 2016, when he still was a world class shot stopper. Spain realized it in 2018/19, and won't even have him on the bench anymore. And still, we have a ton of fans who yet haven't realized how playing with De Gea makes it impossible for us to evolve into a dominating, controlling side. I started to understand how goalkeepers were essentially utilized as outfield players by the teams who dominate possession, and it was clear to me even in 2016 that he was severely outdated. No amount of world class saves changes that. He was our best player because we didn't value possession, we relied on counter attacking, just like we did for the last 30 years. That era is gone if you want to be one of the best, and the keeper is the key to start changing that. Some will say: "But he won us so many games!?" Yeah, but he has cost us an enormous amount of points by conceding possession and being rooted to his lines, because that has both massively prevented us from creating chances and scoring, while at the same time ensuring we spend a lot of time defending and conceding chances and goals. It's been like this his entire career, but people are only waking up to it now. Nothing's changed since he joined United, except that he is a worse shot stopper. He was just as terrible playing out from the back, sweeping and defending his box from crosses then as he is now.
Add all the strikers you want to this team. If we can't build out from the back, and have a sweeper keeper who pushes our backline up to the halfway line, those world class strikers will have a graveyard shift with very little possession up front. They'll score more than Martial because they are more clinical and effective, but they won't get many more chances than what we already create. And that's not a lot. It certainly isn't enough. And the only way to create chances... You got to actually have the ball in possession. Basics.
There is truly no bigger problem than De Gea in our team. But there are of course many other big problems as well. Our fans need to finally understand that the goalkeeper isn't just a shot stopper. In the good teams, all the attacks begin from or is the byproduct of the goalkeeper.
De Gea is absolutely antithetic to everything we want to improve on the pitch, not least creating chances to score goals, not to mention preventing chances against. He is our biggest weak spot, both offensively and defensively. Some people will just get angry and yell: "Striker!!". Do a deeper analysis. Understand how a ball even gets to a striker. Understand what Pep is doing at City, and how their goalkeepers are fundamental to everything. They simply can't dominate possession and control their games against the good teams, if they had someone like De Gea in goal.
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I think we've gotten wires crossed. Ddg needs to go, let's make that clear.
I just don't think itl solve our inability to keep the ball unless we get someone in beside casemio as well.
It will certainly improve it though
Especially yesterday when the ball kept going to our weakest link because the others kept shitting themselves. I'm not buying that De Gea is the biggest fix, rather just one of many big problems to be fixed. A better keeper would still need better CMs and Cbs under pressure. I don't want to start next season with the same central lineup.
Yesterday Bruno with his usual shocker in possession a team low in outfield players in pass completion % with 64%. I know the usual "but KDB's was low too" crowd will pop up but I never felt like KDB lost the ball in cheap areas.
Right in the first half he tried one of those silly flicks in our half that got intercepted and with one pass City were through on goal.
We will never be a great possession side with this guy in the team. He can't dribble and is as strong as a wet paper towel so he has to give up the ball as quickly as he gets it which can lead to erratic passing.
We need to build the midfield around Casemiro and Bruno doesn't fit in my opinion and neither do the others which is why we need two signings there that have to be good in possession.
Right in the first half he tried one of those silly flicks in our half that got intercepted and with one pass City were through on goal.
We will never be a great possession side with this guy in the team. He can't dribble and is as strong as a wet paper towel so he has to give up the ball as quickly as he gets it which can lead to erratic passing.
We need to build the midfield around Casemiro and Bruno doesn't fit in my opinion and neither do the others which is why we need two signings there that have to be good in possession.
That's what I noticed a lot yesterday as well. I've said it in another thread. Sometime around 45 minutes awb had a throw at the edge of the city box, he took it relatively quickly and about 3 passes later we were back to ddg who lumped it forward and we lost it. Not a chance city go back to their keeper from there, at least that quickly.
There was another time lindeloff I think had the ball and there was a pass to Shaw on. Instead he went to ddg who took about 5 touches then passed to Shaw who was closed down by that stage.
We cannot recycle the ball anywhere close to the best teams, even Brighton are better at it. And to reiterate I know ddg is a problem in this but I just can't see it being fixed without actually getting outfielders who are comfortable with the ball.
I agree this perennial issue starts with your goalkeeper dictating what type of style you want to play. A modern day keeper is as much a footballer as and old fashioned shot stopper. That time has been and gone.
We know we can’t play from the back with DDG (how many more times do we want to concede goals/chances trying) so we currently have to be more long ball, nick the scraps in midfield through Fred and Casemiro, release Bruno and be a real threat on the counter attack with the fast forwards. That is us optimising what we currently have but it’s not the foundations of a team that can battle with the best teams over a 38 game season.
I would like to see a ball playing footballing goalkeeper and a highly technical ball playing centre midfielder (a bit like Eriksen 5 years ago) replacing one of the work horses (Fred most likely) and we suddenly see the style of the team change, retaining more of the ball and being less reliant on counter attacking football being our only weapon against better teams. Perhaps this is where ETH sees Mount fitting in as that type of player?
We know we can’t play from the back with DDG (how many more times do we want to concede goals/chances trying) so we currently have to be more long ball, nick the scraps in midfield through Fred and Casemiro, release Bruno and be a real threat on the counter attack with the fast forwards. That is us optimising what we currently have but it’s not the foundations of a team that can battle with the best teams over a 38 game season.
I would like to see a ball playing footballing goalkeeper and a highly technical ball playing centre midfielder (a bit like Eriksen 5 years ago) replacing one of the work horses (Fred most likely) and we suddenly see the style of the team change, retaining more of the ball and being less reliant on counter attacking football being our only weapon against better teams. Perhaps this is where ETH sees Mount fitting in as that type of player?
He also has players In his team that makes playing out from the back look simple.
How many times has ddg dropped the ball into someone in that situation only for them to lose it?
I can think of eriksen maguire and Fred from this season alone.
Replacing ddg to ederson won't change the fact we dont have enough players in the team comfortable receiving the ball in situations like there were John bloody stones did
A shame that some of our own fans cannot see this. Bruno and Rashford have dictated the way we play since the Ole era. This will only get you so far in my opinion and I think it has.
@Rozay had the polarising thread about Bruno and us winning the league that got closed and each passing season he's proved more right in my opinion.
It's the biggest disappointment from Ten Hag's time in charge so far. He still has time to change it, but I thought he would do more to make us a competent possession side and from the Mount rumours it doesn't seem as though he has the intention to do that this summer either. I'm prepared to trust Ten Hag because he's done a good job so far but I'm more than a bit skeptical.
Not a bad idea, but like this:
Dalot Varane Martinez
Casemiro Shaw
Antony Bruno Mount/Eriksen Rashford
new striker
Disagree.
Player | Total Passes | Accurate Passes | Passing Accuracy |
|---|---|---|---|
Bruno | 42 | 27 | 64% |
Lindelof | 40 | 35 | 88% |
De Gea | 35 | 17 | 49% |
Casemiro | 34 | 28 | 82% |
Varane | 33 | 26 | 79% |
Ortega, Citys 2nd choice keeper had 42 total passes, 38 accurate and a passing accuracy of 90%.The main culprit yesterday for losing the ball wasn't Bruno (he wasn't dispossessed at all, in fact Fred was the main issue losing it 4 times). Having a keeper with 49% passing accuracy is horrific given he was our 3rd highest total passer. It's not a one off game, look at this season stats.
De Geas Total Passing Stats in the PL:
Total Pass Accuracy: 68.3% (ranked 20th)
Total Long Pass Accuracy: 36.0% (ranked 21st)
Now that might not seem so bad, but lets' remember that stats assume a long ball is 25 yards or more which really isn't that far, passing to AWB/Shaw would be considered a Long Pass normally for example.
You are correct that in a fully functional team like City, the majority of the possession will be with the midfield. But part of the reason why that happens is because they have a keeper comfortable on the ball that won't make mistakes and will be consistent with their passing. Currently De Gea is a weakness, we know it, our rivals know it and they will ensure their tactics target our weakness. If we have a keeper that's comfortable on the ball, those tactics become null and void and helps enormously with our build up play.
In my mind, it's vital we get a new keeper in. It will transform the teams style of play.
This is ETHs biggest test. De Zerbi has gotten Brighton playing some gorgeous football in the midfield with players like Gilmour and Gross rotating in seamlessly for Caicedo and Mac Allister.
ETH should be able to do the same with time on the training pitch.
ETH should be able to do the same with time on the training pitch.
Great post and sums up our deficiencies pretty well. We aren't built to be a possession side
Definitely, they're both part of the problem and both need to be fixed in this window if we want to change our style of play to a modern possession game. Solving one and leaving the other will still have us playing shit football, slightly better but still shit football.
Haven't read the full post yet, but you said ddg was out 3rd highest passer. Where was city's keeper for reference?
It seems insane to me any keeper is attempting the 3rd most passes in your team let alone ddg.
Ortega was about 6th or 7th with the 90% passing accuracy. He actually completed more passes than any of our players.
Isn't that a problem itself? They use their ball playing keeper a lot less than we use ddg. It reiterates my point that we have to go back to our keeper whoever it may be alot more in comparison to top teams.Ortega was about 6th or 7th with the 90% passing accuracy. He actually completed more passes than any of our players.
Top team like city use their keeper as an extra man, we use ours because we cant pass it about the middle of the park and have no other option to go back. Like here ddg, you knock it long for me will ye.
Even in the latter years of the Fergie era, we tended towards stockpiling tenacious role players and resorting to reactive football to contain our superiors. We've come to take it for granted that we cannot compete on an even footing with the best teams. Only Van Gaal got as far as at least making an attempt to change this, obviously without much success.
The strong Mount rumours indicate, at least to me, that Ten Hag isn't going to make a serious effort to move away from this shitty tradition, not any time soon. We'll continue as a transition-focused team, one that will concede control by default to the technically accomplished teams it encounters.
A goalkeeper can help along with some different midfielders.
It's not just City, but Brighton and Wolves can out play us. Throughout the team we're geared to conceding possession and playing counters against a technical team.
We still have too many players from front to back that struggle with the ball to truly elevate ourselves. We're desperate for a keeper to command the last third of the pitch. I fear ETH is having to accommodate too much and we'll be wasting years. De Gea should've been gone since 2019. How we made him the highest paid keeper in the world is shocking. We only have to look at Peter Schmeichel for the type of keeper we should be aiming for.
It's not just City, but Brighton and Wolves can out play us. Throughout the team we're geared to conceding possession and playing counters against a technical team.
We still have too many players from front to back that struggle with the ball to truly elevate ourselves. We're desperate for a keeper to command the last third of the pitch. I fear ETH is having to accommodate too much and we'll be wasting years. De Gea should've been gone since 2019. How we made him the highest paid keeper in the world is shocking. We only have to look at Peter Schmeichel for the type of keeper we should be aiming for.
Problem is that there is nothing to indicate that Ten Haag is going for a press resistant, possession based system. Firstly because that's not how we played all year. Secondly he bought Casemiro who is not that kind of player. and wants Mount who is again not that player. Thirdly we have so many players that dont work in this system including big name players - De Gea, Bruno etc.
All indications are that we will line up with the following players not particularly suited to possession based football
--------De Gea
Wan b -
----Casemiro----Mount
--------Bruno
Antony---- -----Rashford
Are we really going to replace all of them? Even if we do, then do we have suitable back ups?
All indications are that we will line up with the following players not particularly suited to possession based football
--------De Gea
Wan b -
----Casemiro----Mount
--------Bruno
Antony---- -----Rashford
Are we really going to replace all of them? Even if we do, then do we have suitable back ups?
It depends on the reasons why we have to pass it back. I think its due to the oppositions tactics knowing that when De Gea receives the ball he can't punish the opposition. A modern keeper can receive the ball under pressure and still be able to find a team mate, De Gea can't. Thus it gets thumped forward and we lose possession. Rinse, repeat over and over. It didn't help matters that Sancho and Eriksen were utterly ineffective and we didn't try and change things until late on.
I could understand the strategy of lumping it forward if we had pacey forwards and hit them on the counter. But we only had Rashford. We didn't have forwards that could win the ball in the air either. So ultimately punting it forward was born out of panic rather than by design.
Either way, put a new modern keeper with a replacement for Eriksen (he'll still be very useful for us but in moderation) and our style of play will be much better.
I have used WhoScored metrics. Nobody should lose the ball the way De Gea and Bruno lose it. That's the problem we have. As written by
Bruno lost the ball 15 times yesterday but De Gea losing the ball 18 times will be the cause of our problems. De Gea main problem yesterday was his standing position. Which has massively dipped this season. It's his standing position which has gone to the dogs completely. He looked like a person not in sync with the flow of the game. Even the second goal he look like he wasn't following the game 100%. His legs and brain don't match anymore.
Answer the underlined part?
Why is De Gea our 3rd most passer yet he the least qualified passer? (we all agree his limitations in passing) Answer is Because we have zero fecking passers in the team.
Eriksen had 17 passes. 17 passes. 13 accurate. That's our cm.
Gundogan had 42 passes, 37 accurate one's. Scored 2 goals.
Rodri had 66 passes, 64 were accurate.
These are pseudo midfielders I have been calling them out since February. Players who have achieved nothing substantial in their careers but elevated to stardom status by United fans.
We all agree De Gea is a massive liability, so is Bruno and Eriksen. This is what many fans don't want to accept.
KDB had 29 passes, one of his worst game, he was hooked off as it should.
We all agree City didn't play good yesterday.
Yet Manchester United Football Club Main four midfielders Casemiro (28), Fred (19) , Bruno (27) , Eriksen (13) Accurate passes = 87 passes were less than City accurate Passes from it's 2 midfielders Rodri 64, Gundogan 37 = 101 passes.
KDB has achieved more than Bruno/Eriksen can even dream of but when he delivers below acceptable performance he is hooked off.
For Us, Bruno & Eriksen deliver such performance week in week out but are praised and insulated from criticism or even upgrading.
This midfield is the main problem we have, it's knock off effects is what makes we go to De Gea every 5 minutes, is why we create little chances, we don't pin teams back, why we are under pressure mostly, why we get overrun in almost all games, why we are still a Sub 40% possession team, ball over the top to rashy merchants.
It's not a coincidence when ALL OUR 4 top midfielders in a FA CUP Final, a Derby, starting the game had only 87 accurate passes made, while 2 City midfielders had 101 passes YET WE agree city didn't play well. ( if you add Stones and KDB accurate passes it goes over 160 passes double our midfielders)
When people will accept our problems is when we will move forward as a club. With such a midfield you can't win anything big.
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De Jong AND Caicedo. Stop gap striker like Iheanacho. Sorted. Wait for the Brighton kid.
Title challenge and deep CL run.
Title challenge and deep CL run.
Our issue for years is not having deep lying playmakers since Carrick retired. Compounded further by not having a natural 6 till Casemiro arrived. We have simply had overly ambitious passers like Pogba and Bruno and tried to use them deeper. Eriksen has helped but he is too old. With how we set up in 4-2-3-1 one can't seriously expect our number 10 to drive oir possesiom game. It has to be the gk, CBS and deep lying playmaker. That is why ETH desired de jong
"Or at pace with the top teams" is literally what I wrote
This would be a dream come true in my opinion, but you're probably talking about ~175 million between those two players and we all know that's not happening.
Instead we're going to sign Mount, who in no way, shape, or form is going to correct the problems we see in the midfield.
Even one of Rice or Caicedo would be a major win this summer.
Rashford, Casemiro, Bruno are best in transition. Shaw, Antony and Martinez are very capable in possession. I don't think we'll ever be a City level possession based team and I don't think we need to be to become an elite side. But we need to be better than we currently are. I feel whomever we bring in to play the 8 role needs to be a technical monster who runs the play. Find a right back who is Shaw level technically and a striker who is capable of linking up in tight spaces and a ball playing Goalie and you'll have a double edged team who can pin teams back but retain a threat in transition.
JWP on the cheap gives the midfield much more steel and retains the ball playing ability to a degree whilst we spend big on a striker. Also will serve things on a plate for whichever striker we get and finally make us good from set pieces.
Eriksen, Case, Bruno are difficult to upgrade on when we know the bulk of our finances (unless Qatar buy the club) will go on a CF. We simply can't go another season with a single player getting 10+ PL goals.
It's not just midfield issue. The focus should also include our wingers and forward who are soft as wet paper who couldn't hold the ball, or making good passes.