It looks to me as though it's attitude that's the problem. These players have previously held their own against other teams playing physically, but at the monent seem to be lacking in any real desire or belief. It's very difficult to figure out what is wrong with the players without access to the dressing room and the players' internal dynamics and culture. I thought Erik had sorted this out early on last season, but it's back and they look half-defeated before they start. It's likely, but just a guess, that the entire culture of the club is fecked without the departure of the leeches at the top. Things were hopeful for a while, but now it's looks as though they have decided there's some more dollars to be sucked out of Utd, and will stay for another feast off the corpse.
Our lack of physicality
- Thread starter BusbyMalone
- Start date
Rangnick himself said there wasn't. Don't believe anything you read in the Mirror.
Don’t read the mirror
That's where the 'dossier' story started.
We weren’t any better with the likes of Pogba, Matic and Fellaini in midfield. Back then the opinion was the reverse… We should buy small, technical players like City and Barca.
Our squad is the weakest physically in the big 7 and in the league. Only Varane, AWB, McTominay and to a degree Casemiro and Rashford have the physical capabilities.
Look at the squads Klopp, and especially Pep and Arteta have assembled. Arsenal have White, Saliba, Gabriel, Rice, Tomiyasu, Partey, Havertz, Saka, Jesus who are either physically imposing or can hold their own.
City with Akanji, Ake, Stones, Dias, Gvardiol, Rodri, KDB, Grealish and Haaland. It’s a marked difference.
Look at the squads Klopp, and especially Pep and Arteta have assembled. Arsenal have White, Saliba, Gabriel, Rice, Tomiyasu, Partey, Havertz, Saka, Jesus who are either physically imposing or can hold their own.
City with Akanji, Ake, Stones, Dias, Gvardiol, Rodri, KDB, Grealish and Haaland. It’s a marked difference.
I think the point is that you need a balance of both physically and technically strong players. You don’t have to forgo one for the other.
We can't even beat them at jogging ffs.
We beat them at walking. Get in!
Massive difference in the sprint and high-speed runs. Quite alarming.
Massive difference in the sprint and high-speed runs. Quite alarming.
Walking FC
But they were just big lumps. They weren't athletic. When people are saying physicality I don't think they just mean a big bloke.
It's true but it's a combination of stamina, speed, strength and height that makes up physicality. Fellaini, Matic and Pogba had height and strength but not the speed and stamina to cover a lot of ground.
You also have to ensure you're not completely sacrificing your team's technical quality in order to prioritise physicality, so it's certainly not easy to find players who tick all boxes.
One thing you would say though, is you have to excel in at least one of physicality/technicality, if you're not excelling at either you're in big trouble.
Pep's Barca team or his 100 point City team certainly weren't the strongest or tallest, but they were streets ahead technically, and their ball retention was second to none, so the opportunities teams had to exploit their lack of physicality was limited as they couldn't even get hold of the ball. Weirdly this version of City's team is a lot more physical than previous Pep teams, possible one of the reasons he's broke his 12 year wait for another CL.
As for this United team, well we've somehow conspired to build a team that is both below par technically and physically. Watching us fail to string 2 passes together against Wolves was painful and speaks to how bad our players ball retention is. And all those losses of possession are compounded by the fact they can then just run right through our physically weak or slow players whenever they win the ball back.
Either don't give the ball away, or be good at stopping the opposition when they have the ball. Don't be like us and fail on both fronts.
We're about half an hour from kickoff against a fair/good Newcastle side and my main concern, again, is our complete lack of physical attributes.
Again, we seem to be the very last club in the World to learn something...which in this case is that physicality, tactical discipline, work rate and aggression are non-negotiables in the modern game.
I don't need to spend ages labouring this point and naming individuals because, despite the polarised nature of virtually every single point of discussion on this forum, we're virtually all in unanimous agreement that our squad is badly lacking in these departments.
So, if this is the case, and every pie-munching, lager swilling, arse-scratching fan in the stadium and in their armchairs know it, then how again have a highly-paid team of executives/scouts/strategists and coaches + the manager failed to realise this?
There was one highly-paid executive who knew this...but we sacked him so that the latest flavour of the month could sign a garden gnome at CB, a flagging CDM, a flagging CM and a wide forward who lacks pace...
https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/03/ralf...uno-fernandes-and-fred-examples-16399086/amp/
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...uthampton-burnley-middlesbrough-b2014330.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...angnick-bemoans-manchester-united-physicality
Again, we seem to be the very last club in the World to learn something...which in this case is that physicality, tactical discipline, work rate and aggression are non-negotiables in the modern game.
I don't need to spend ages labouring this point and naming individuals because, despite the polarised nature of virtually every single point of discussion on this forum, we're virtually all in unanimous agreement that our squad is badly lacking in these departments.
So, if this is the case, and every pie-munching, lager swilling, arse-scratching fan in the stadium and in their armchairs know it, then how again have a highly-paid team of executives/scouts/strategists and coaches + the manager failed to realise this?
There was one highly-paid executive who knew this...but we sacked him so that the latest flavour of the month could sign a garden gnome at CB, a flagging CDM, a flagging CM and a wide forward who lacks pace...
https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/03/ralf...uno-fernandes-and-fred-examples-16399086/amp/
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...uthampton-burnley-middlesbrough-b2014330.html
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...angnick-bemoans-manchester-united-physicality
Those players aren't what we mean by 'physical'.
Pogba was tall and strong but slow, lazy and lacked aggression.
Matic was tall and somewhat strong, but poor in the air for his size and slow across the ground.
Fellaini was very strong and tried hard but was cumbersome, clumsy and slow.
By 'physical', I'm talking about players who swarm over opponents like hornets with a combination of power, body strength, speed, aggression and intensity. I don't really care if they're 5ft or 6ft 5 (as long as they're not playing CB...) but they have to have that knack for winning balls they shouldn't, for getting their body in the way and shielding the ball, for timing their jump perfectly to win headers they shouldn't, to outpace opponents, to recover the ball against countering opponents etc...
Every good footballer I've ever played with was physical. The kids you see doing kick-ups and rabonas don't get further than Sunday League, whereas basic technical ability with mega physical attributes can take you into the football league.
Joelinton and the rest of Newcastle made us look like toddlers tonight. I don’t understand how ETH’s built such a weak, unathletic, yet technically limited side. The first goal tonight was woeful from numerous players.
Ten Hag in 2020. “Only once in his career has Pep made a mistake – in his first year at Manchester City when he completely underestimated the power and speed of the Premier league,” Ten Hag told Voetbal International (via the Manchester Evening News).
“He realised that you can’t play the kind of football he loves without having a couple of physically strong athletes – and so he brought them in. So he’s not a stubborn coach."
Can only laugh. Bullied yet again tonight.
“He realised that you can’t play the kind of football he loves without having a couple of physically strong athletes – and so he brought them in. So he’s not a stubborn coach."
Can only laugh. Bullied yet again tonight.
Nail on the head.
None of our players play with any physical intensity, none. In fact I think most of them are the exact opposite.
Ragnick was right with pretty much all of his summations but the club didn’t want to hear that they should t be making commercially driven marquee signings…
The reports in the press are that he's working them too hard according to the supposed leaks
to be fair, I didn't see a lack of effort in the derby, just a complete lack of technical quality compared to City who got round us with ease. Didn't see tonight's game but on the whole, i've not been impressed by the workrate this season.
Tonight was just as poor as it’s been for most of the season, you did yourself a favour not watching.The reports in the press are that he's working them too hard according to the supposed leaks
to be fair, I didn't see a lack of effort in the derby, just a complete lack of technical quality compared to City who got round us with ease. Didn't see tonight's game but on the whole, i've not been impressed by the workrate this season.
The contrast was as stark as I feared it would be. One team of mediocre technicians/fantastic athletes ran all over a team of good technicians/weak athletes.
Newcastle don't do anything special and they don't have a great deal of real quality at the highest level but they're all young, hungry, dynamic, strong and powerful runners. Some of our players look like they wouldnt stand out as atheltes if they were playing Masters football.
Newcastle don't do anything special and they don't have a great deal of real quality at the highest level but they're all young, hungry, dynamic, strong and powerful runners. Some of our players look like they wouldnt stand out as atheltes if they were playing Masters football.
It's just a lack of effort, the players don't want to try.
They just don't like it up'em as the saying goes.
They just don't like it up'em as the saying goes.
I agree with you about the physicality but I'm not seeing any good technical ability either.
Ronaldo was right about the GYM
No we have a lot of average pace/slow players. This is a recruiting choice and is the most basic mistake which happens time and time again.
We've turned into Arsenal in the latter Wenger years: small and/or physically weak, unfit, and getting battered left, right and centre by fitter, stronger teams.
And at least those Arsenal teams could play some decent football from time to time.
And at least those Arsenal teams could play some decent football from time to time.
100% agree. To be honest I don't see good anything at the moment. It really is rather worrying.
Hannibal certainly put a shift in tonight and took the fight to the barcodes. Couldn't understand why Gary Neville wanted him sent off when he was the only one showing the required spirit. ( Got fed up of Neville by the end, refusing to highlight their gamesmanship and sneaky fouling that generally went unpunished - while laughing and joking about our fans ).
Xavi and Iniesta were completely flops as center midfielder because they were small framed. Oh, wait...
But they were amazing players surrounded by other amazing players.
Unless you think its possible to get Xavi and Iniesta level players easily you have to get some athleticism in there.
Has nothing to do with size, both of those players pressed as part of a team. It’s the simple things, like using your body to buy a foul or just taking the yellow like when Livramento ran through.
I go back to what I said earlier in the thread.
You have to excel in at least one of physicality/technicality, if you're not excelling at either you're in big trouble.
Pep's Barca team or his 100 point City team certainly weren't the strongest or tallest, but they were streets ahead technically, and their ball retention was second to none, so the opportunities teams had to exploit their lack of physicality was limited as they couldn't even get hold of the ball. Weirdly this version of City's team is a lot more physical than previous Pep teams, possible one of the reasons he's broke his 12 year wait for another CL.
As for this United team, well we've somehow conspired to build a team that is both below par technically and physically. Watching us fail to string 2 passes together against Wolves was painful and speaks to how bad our players ball retention is. And all those losses of possession are compounded by the fact they can then just run right through our physically weak or slow players whenever they win the ball back.
Either don't give the ball away, or be good at stopping the opposition when they have the ball. Don't be like us and fail on both fronts.
Its amazing.
Every time i go over the team, all i see is players that for some reason should have been shipped out long ago that has been here for years.
The technical ability of the team as a whole is mid table, and this is after Ten Hag has bought around 10 players?
Why are we buying old players that is over the top from other clubs, or players lacking either physical or technical ability?
I just dont get it. Howcome we are the only "top team" in this league that doesnt even understand that we need players that has both physical and technical abilities to succseed in the PL?
Its like we cant even do the basics right.
And ETH should know this, but he seems completly obvious.
As someone was sharing distance travelled stats of a season where we were bottom, City were second from bottom, they don't run a lot and don't need to when you have the ball more.
Saw an interesting point this week. Liverpool last season were shite but the season before they went all they way in both cups. Played close to the maximum number of games you can play in a season.
Similarly, last season we went all the way in the cups and quarters of the Europa League. Then a huge pre-season tour as well, with lots of travelling. From match day one, this team has looked shattered. I definitely see the similarity to Liverpool last season.
We're hardly a physical, athletic team anyway. It's actually quote concerning how little pace we have throughout the team.
But I do think there's an element of fatigue from last season going on.
Similarly, last season we went all the way in the cups and quarters of the Europa League. Then a huge pre-season tour as well, with lots of travelling. From match day one, this team has looked shattered. I definitely see the similarity to Liverpool last season.
We're hardly a physical, athletic team anyway. It's actually quote concerning how little pace we have throughout the team.
But I do think there's an element of fatigue from last season going on.
I think the Liverpool way of playing doesn't work consistently, it's one of the reasons possession football is so needed now.
I'm just as concerned with our lack of technicality. It's true that football has moved towards being a more athletic, physically demanding game - but that also applies to the fact that when you have the ball you have to be competent at handling it under duress.
We are not. We give the ball away for fun. Players treat it like a hot potato. Certain individuals try too much, possibly because they've got no faith in our ability to handle the ball so would rather punt for the low percentage options.
The fact is, if you constantly turn over the ball, often in dangerous sitations - then you are putting more emphasis on the running power of the team to recover and sometimes it simply won't happen, especially with old legs in some areas. So we really do have a strange blend of technical and physical deficits which makes it hard to identify what our strengths are except having a few good indivdual players.
I think either way can work - you can have small, not physically imposing players if they are absolutely exceptional technically AND press and compete. Or you can have a powerful team with a blend between athleticism and technical ability. Chelsea were always very good at that when they were strong as a side. But definitely you have to be building something with some kind of logic that says you are strong in one or both of these areas and at least very good in the one that isn't the focus.
We are not. We give the ball away for fun. Players treat it like a hot potato. Certain individuals try too much, possibly because they've got no faith in our ability to handle the ball so would rather punt for the low percentage options.
The fact is, if you constantly turn over the ball, often in dangerous sitations - then you are putting more emphasis on the running power of the team to recover and sometimes it simply won't happen, especially with old legs in some areas. So we really do have a strange blend of technical and physical deficits which makes it hard to identify what our strengths are except having a few good indivdual players.
I think either way can work - you can have small, not physically imposing players if they are absolutely exceptional technically AND press and compete. Or you can have a powerful team with a blend between athleticism and technical ability. Chelsea were always very good at that when they were strong as a side. But definitely you have to be building something with some kind of logic that says you are strong in one or both of these areas and at least very good in the one that isn't the focus.
It's a thread from this season so I didn't think i'd need to make a new one but tonight was unbelievable in this regard: yes we have a lot of injuries but when players are injured the ones that come in have to adapt to the system or the manager changes it up and approaches things differently. Look at the spine of that team today:
Evans- Casemiro
Mainoo- Eriksen
You're going to get slaughtered in the premiership against any half decent team that can actually run. Additionally, when players return it still looks a pretty slow, weak and/or injury prone squad: Lindelof, Varane, Shaw, Martial, Rashford, Amrabat, Antony
He says he wants to build a great transition team that presses high but it looks impossible to implement effectively.
Evans- Casemiro
Mainoo- Eriksen
You're going to get slaughtered in the premiership against any half decent team that can actually run. Additionally, when players return it still looks a pretty slow, weak and/or injury prone squad: Lindelof, Varane, Shaw, Martial, Rashford, Amrabat, Antony
He says he wants to build a great transition team that presses high but it looks impossible to implement effectively.
Ragnick was 100% correct about our playing roster. It doesn't have the physicality to cope with the demands of the game in England.
It needs to be both. Even City's 'smaller' players are tough - Bernado Silva isn't just quickfooted and speedy of mind, but has decent upper body strength, albeit in a wiry way, and is fairly mobile. Foden previously would just try and evade challenges and go for freekicks if not, but he's also gained more wiry strength. Gundogan was stocky, if not all that quick. De Bruyne is quick and strong. Rodri isn't a sprinter but has a turn of pace over a few yards, as well as high footballing iq, and is pretty robust. Our CM players by contrast (especially now Fred has gone) seem like u-18s or Legends game players respectively, or, in Bruno, have stamina but scattergun passing radar (between brilliance and wastefulness, like a mid-table 'star' 10) and negligible ability to take it past players or hold-off strong players. The only one with a full physical profile is a blunderbuss with sketchy technique and footballing smarts (as well as similarly low courage around taking the ball under pressure) in McT, who is best served as a reserve wildcard no. 10 or emergency CB in injury time (so long as he doesn't try and actually tackle). It's a real indictment on ETH and his surrounding team/Murtough..