Once and for all: what do we do to counter the press?

[Trequarista10]

One thing that is getting overlooked is the numerical disadvantage United continue to allow themselves to be in, which is even more compounded by the lack of technical abilities individually and overall by the central midfield.

A center forward closes down the ball, whether it is DDG or the CB. The wide outlets or the fullbacks are marked. The two central midfielders are easily marked as well. That leaves the CB available, but the CB then has to carry the ball into midfield and find a higher level outlet as in the CAM or forward players, but that's a longer pass and losing possession would leave your team in a vulnerable state because the shape is all wrong...which is how McTominay was at direct fault for the first goal.

What one poster correctly identified was that in pre-season, United were much more compact when playing from the back and had more options or clear outlets to get through not only a press, but just be available for passes and move the ball up the pitch. But when the live matches start like against Brighton, the spatial differences were drastic and nothing like pre-season training, but from the previous seasons.

Eriksen has the technical skill to positively influence a midfield when marked or press, but he still needs players around him to show for him and be close to him to play off of.

Overall, not even comparing the technical abilities of the players, City, Liverpool, Chelsea, and Spurs all have 5 players to play a high press against...based on a back 3 (Chelsea and Spurs) or a midfield 3 (City and Liverpool). To that, Chelsea, City, and Liverpool have exceptional fullback outlets or at least one (City - Walker, Cancelo; Liverpool - TAA, Robertson; Chelsea - James). And someone from a higher forward line is able to come deep and facilitate play and help make up the numbers such as Kane or Son at Spurs, City could be Haaland or more likely KDB because he's the best midfielder in the league, Liverpool have Salah.

Agree with this. I think it explains why ETH is/was so keen on De Jong, because he's a midfielder who looks to receive the ball deep and dribble past his marker when in a 1 vs 1 (or even 1 v 2), thus alleviating or bypassing the numerical disadvantage, and then having numerous players in advanced positions to go against the oppositions defence.

That type of midfielder is extremely rare though, so it requires an absolute diamond to pull it off. And I think even if you have that diamond midfielder, there still needs needs be more movement and connections with the rest of the team for balance, variation, and to minimise the risk when the ball is lost. The midfielder who is slightly more advanced, and the full backs, also need to be dropping deeper or infield so that a short pass or quick one-two is also available. Or, as you said, one of the forward line dropping into some space to become an outlet. I think Sancho in particular should be effective dropping inside and a little deeper to receive the ball. We have him starting high and wide to stretch the pitch, and to create space in the half-space for McTominay and Dalot. Firstly, Sancho would obviously be more dangerous in the half-space than either of those two, and would benefit from an overlapping right back/wing back (eg Hakimi) to create width. Secondly, although Sancho is decent 1 v 1, it's not his tendency or primary skill to look to run at the LB and go outside. As a result, the play is always fairly predictable, Sancho receives the ball, and ends up in a fairly static position, on the touchline, 30-40 yards from goal, looking to lay the ball into space for the oncoming McTominay or Dalot. It's largely a waste of Sancho's ability, and a sacrifice we're making to create space for two players who don't offer enough for it to be warranted. We're then susceptible on the break when the attack comes to an end, Fred isn't strong enough defensively when facing the opposition storming forwards, McTominay and Dalot don't have the recovery pace (or desire) to get back quick enough, or possibly the nous to sense the danger a couple seconds quicker and reposition themselves.

Personally, if Sancho is to play on the wing, I think we need him 10 yards infield, the RB overlapping, and the 8/RCM shielding behind them alongside the 6/LCM, instead of underlapping into Sancho's space.

 

[edcunited1878]

Agree with this. I think it explains why ETH is/was so keen on De Jong, because he's a midfielder who looks to receive the ball deep and dribble past his marker when in a 1 vs 1 (or even 1 v 2), thus alleviating or bypassing the numerical disadvantage, and then having numerous players in advanced positions to go against the oppositions defence.

That type of midfielder is extremely rare though, so it requires an absolute diamond to pull it off. And I think even if you have that diamond midfielder, there still needs needs be more movement and connections with the rest of the team for balance, variation, and to minimise the risk when the ball is lost. The midfielder who is slightly more advanced, and the full backs, also need to be dropping deeper or infield so that a short pass or quick one-two is also available. Or, as you said, one of the forward line dropping into some space to become an outlet. I think Sancho in particular should be effective dropping inside and a little deeper to receive the ball. We have him starting high and wide to stretch the pitch, and to create space in the half-space for McTominay and Dalot. Firstly, Sancho would obviously be more dangerous in the half-space than either of those two, and would benefit from an overlapping right back/wing back (eg Hakimi) to create width. Secondly, although Sancho is decent 1 v 1, it's not his tendency or primary skill to look to run at the LB and go outside. As a result, the play is always fairly predictable, Sancho receives the ball, and ends up in a fairly static position, on the touchline, 30-40 yards from goal, looking to lay the ball into space for the oncoming McTominay or Dalot. It's largely a waste of Sancho's ability, and a sacrifice we're making to create space for two players who don't offer enough for it to be warranted. We're then susceptible on the break when the attack comes to an end, Fred isn't strong enough defensively when facing the opposition storming forwards, McTominay and Dalot don't have the recovery pace (or desire) to get back quick enough, or possibly the nous to sense the danger a couple seconds quicker and reposition themselves.

Personally, if Sancho is to play on the wing, I think we need him 10 yards infield, the RB overlapping, and the 8/RCM shielding behind them alongside the 6/LCM, instead of underlapping into Sancho's space.

Your last sentence about Sancho's positioning, relative to the sideline and his teammates, is really shocking when you notice it on TV since you can see more of the pitch at once. Because Sancho or Rashford are high up the pitch and so wide, there's literally no room to overlap and the sideline is acting as a defender and literally only allows for a pass over the top because if you pass into Sancho near the sideline, he's got no place to go to his left (sideline), defender/marker is on his back (can roll or turn him, but that's very low chances and never happens all the time), so he either goes backwards where the pass came from or try inside to his right if there's support.

Then the above scenario is similar to a fullback, but closer to their own goal, which then flips the balance of the pitch in favor of the opponent since the ball is close to their attacking goal and their shape is well intact.

The transition from defensive third through midfield is rarely going to work with two central midfielders when you're already at a numerical disadvantage unless your players are positioned correctly and are able to quickly move the ball, but that requires technical ability on the ball, vision for a pass, and teammates that will move for you in and around the midfield, just not runs towards goal.

One of the better passages of play in the first half was where Sancho was able to dribble inside from the right wing, but because there was a player to his right and another one, think it was Eriksen who made a run into the channel (so was ahead of Sancho is space and inbetween Brighton players, those half spaces), Sancho was able to make a run that created the correct passing angle and broke the lines, allowing Eriksen to go on the half turn inside the box and I think it was the cutback that Bruno missed.

 

[Yagami]

You sign press resistant players. Players who la pelopina turn away from pressing opposition. Players who can shield the ball under pressure. Players who know how to position their body in between the ball and opposition player, resulting in winning fouls as the opposition player has to go through the player to get the ball. Players who are fine with taking that contact in order to win the foul instead of passing it off before contact arrives.

They're very easy to identify.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Yeah, he should have probably dived towards the ball there, looked like he was worried about getting clattered by the onrushing striker.

But his passing isn't actually that bad, and I don't think changing DDG will suddenly change the way we play, we tried that with Henderson and we looked the same, just with added shakiness!

I just don't really think he has any sort of passing range to speak of and he's extremely one-footed. Sure he can pass it short on a technical level with his right foot but he also often makes terrible decisions - the suicide pass to Fred who was closely marked against Brighton, for instance. Shows up as a completed pass but it was very poor.

The other big problem is he almost never makes himself available for passes - which makes your CBs far easier to press. DDG is also very easy to press for strikers because he never wants to use his left foot - any sort of curved run towards him from the opposition left forward causes him huge problems.

 

[Champ]

I just don't really think he has any sort of passing range to speak of and he's extremely one-footed. Sure he can pass it short on a technical level with his right foot but he also often makes terrible decisions - the suicide pass to Fred who was closely marked against Brighton, for instance. Shows up as a completed pass but it was very poor.

The other big problem is he almost never makes himself available for passes - which makes your CBs far easier to press. DDG is also very easy to press for strikers because he never wants to use his left foot - any sort of curved run towards him from the opposition left forward causes him huge problems.

This is true of nearly every keeper, Alisson being the worst. The amount of times I've seen Alisson try a Cruyff turn to try and get out of trouble because he need to cut back onto his stronger foot, hasn't got away with it every time either.

The issue I don't think is DDGs passing, it's more we don't really have a midfielder who can play facing their own goal.
Fred was the player tasked with dropping deep to receive off DDG, he should be trusted with receiving the ball in tight situations, however he isn't great at facing his own goal, he doesn't really turn sharply or use the ball effectively enough.
Swap Fred for De Jong or a similar player and all of a sudden you have a major upgrade and De Geas passing is not an issue.

 

[DRJosh]

In that first clip, Maguire looks such a good option for Fred. Quick flick/one touch pass and Maguire leaves 4 of their players out of the game. I and probably many/most of you would have done exactly that. It's honestly mind boggling the decision supposed top end pros sometimes make (not saying I'm a better player, but decision making can be questionable).

Agreed. This team has a general lack of faith in each other. This results in some bizarre decision making. The general mentality is “to not make a mistake” rather than “let’s do something progressive with the ball”. The irony then is of course mistakes are made more often than not due to an innate fear. It’s a mentality problem as much as it’s a tactical issue

 

[SadlerMUFC]

You mean bypass the midfield, similar to how Felliani was epic against Liverpool in Juanfield? Only issue is that the current United don't really win a lot of second or third balls, especially when you only have 2 CMs. The most combative and engaging CM United have when it comes to these duels is Fred, but again, he has his inabilities which are very steep. But not having a focal point CF (or target man) on Sunday hurt the team and was super easy for the 3 CBs of Brighton.

I said to skip the midfield. Defense to wingers on the run...

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

This is true of nearly every keeper, Alisson being the worst. The amount of times I've seen Alisson try a Cruyff turn to try and get out of trouble because he need to cut back onto his stronger foot, hasn't got away with it every time either.

The issue I don't think is DDGs passing, it's more we don't really have a midfielder who can play facing their own goal.
Fred was the player tasked with dropping deep to receive off DDG, he should be trusted with receiving the ball in tight situations, however he isn't great at facing his own goal, he doesn't really turn sharply or use the ball effectively enough.
Swap Fred for De Jong or a similar player and all of a sudden you have a major upgrade and De Geas passing is not an issue.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Alisson has a far far better left foot than De Gea in my opinion.

And I agree the problem is compounded by your midfield being incompetent generally (to be charitable), but De Gea surely knows their limitations by now and should adjust accordingly. It'd be one thing if he'd signed recently but that's obviously not the case.

 

[Beachryan]

This is going well.

 

[Champ]

Still don't have a midfielder who can play facing his own goal.

 

[Chief123]

What’s been very noticeable this season as the games have progressed since the Brentford defeat is teams are not pressing us high up the pitch as much as they were last season.

A big reason for that is because of how comfortable our defence and midfield are with the ball to feet. Varane, Martinez, Casemiro, Eriksen, Dalot, Shaw are all very comfortable in receiving the ball under pressure.

I feel like we’ve got over that stigma of being easy to press. I remember Troy Deeney saying in an interview how they used to trigger their press whenever Fred received the ball because they knew there would be a heavy touch which they could steal.

From Maguire, Lindelof, Fred, McTominay and AWB who were so easy to press and force errors, it’s a pleasant contrast having players who are very comfortable on the ball and actually invite the press so they can break the lines.

 

[Red the Bear]

What’s been very noticeable this season as the games have progressed since the Brentford defeat is teams are not pressing us high up the pitch as much as they were last season.

A big reason for that is because of how comfortable our defence and midfield are with the ball to feet. Varane, Martinez, Casemiro, Eriksen, Dalot, Shaw are all very comfortable in receiving the ball under pressure.

I feel like we’ve got over that stigma of being easy to press. I remember Troy Deeney saying in an interview how they used to trigger their press whenever Fred received the ball because they knew there would be a heavy touch which they could steal.

From Maguire, Lindelof, Fred, McTominay and AWB who were so easy to press and force errors, it’s a pleasant contrast having players who are very comfortable on the ball and actually invite the press so they can break the lines.

I would like us to go the way of a prime Madrid countering the press than the mad running klopp does to confront it, much more elegant and pleasing on eye and more efficient as well when done it seems.

We need good players though, like the very best but I think we have the financial muscle to pull it off unlike Liverpool which are hamstrung by the budgetary limitations, we need the next modric the next kroos etc etc and those players don't come out easy.

 

[Idxomer]

After the Brentford game, we started to go long for the next 3 games in the league. We played from the back in the EL games and started doing it again in the league during the 2nd half of the City game and parts of the Arsenal game.

Ten Hag did go full pragmatic after Brentford but didn't give up completely on beating the press and his principles. Against Everton, we had mixed results playing from the back but in the last 3 games there has been a noticeable improvement in that aspect.

 

[Boondog]

EtH demonstrating the answer: by raising the play of the defense and midfield to include DDG.

It has been remarkable to watch it unfold. Still amazed at what I have been seeing.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

The key is the players knowing where the space is on the pitch before they receive the ball under pressure. When they know where players are going to be and aren't beforehand, they can make much easier decisions with the ball as opposed to having to diagnose all of it in real time under pressure.

It's been fantastic to see the drilling ETH has clearly done with our backline and midfield in how to combat pressure, as it was one of our main weaknesses as a team for 5 years at least.