Once and for all: what do we do to counter the press?

[BusbyMalone]

quite important that last shot, this was around the 15 min mark and when the groans in the crowd started. I was taken aback as it was so early but showed how pent up the crowd are. DDG was moaning to the players at it

I was watching the game with my brother, and I commented on how the atmosphere in the ground was already on edge...15 minutes in!

This may sound drastic, but literally 16 seconds into the game when Dalot smashed the ball into Trossard? Not sure if it was him or not, but he smashed it into someone and they were in for half a chance. They hit the side netting. And I was just thinking "oh no". 16 seconds in!

 

[The_Midfielder]

The reason we can't beat the press is because De Gea and Fred (as a DM) are pressing triggers and all of our midfielders and front players are weak as feck. We need players that are physical and are able to use their body to protect the ball and can turn away from a marker. Sancho, Rashford, Bruno, Ronaldo, Elanga etc.. it doesn't matter they are all weak players that get pushed off the ball with ease.

These players are all physically weak players and Ralf said it last season. There is nothing that can fix it but the transfer market.

In that first clip, Maguire looks such a good option for Fred. Quick flick/one touch pass and Maguire leaves 4 of their players out of the game. I and probably many/most of you would have done exactly that. It's honestly mind boggling the decisionpposed top end pros sometimes make (not saying I'm a better player, but decision making can be questionable).

I dont think Maguire has the technical ability to do a 1-2 there

 

[RuudTom83]

It is a big problem, if it was just a problem for McFred then you could pray and hope that ETH can coach them to improve. But lets face it McFred won't become press resistance overnight and with all the other problems around the pitch you can only expect so many miracles from the manager.

 

[pocco]

I dont think Maguire has the technical ability to do a 1-2 there

Probably not. I don't know how it developed but if we were really good then Fred could have just set Maguire away to carry the ball forward. But that's probably too much to ask of a combined £120m couple of players

 

[adexkola]

Yeah in essence, we're an average team trying to play like a good team - and in doing so making ourselves a bad team.

That's why we suffer ridiculous results like 1-4 to Brighton and Watford...because the other average/bad teams who play Watford/Brighton etc...don't play right into their hands by trying to play progressive football. They get in a low/middle-block and move the ball forward quickly when they win it.

You can't cheat the process. You need to learn to play like a good team even if you'll be embarrassed in the short term, except that short term is being relegated.

Pep and Klopp went through it and got flamed for not being "pragmatic". And look at them today.

Unless everyone on the team is getting shipped out, they need to learn to play like a good team. That won't happen automatically. Best we stick with learning for now with the players we have, instead of waiting for a collection of players and then coaching them how to play well. Brighton has done it with a worse collection of players. Why can't we?

 

[adexkola]

What happens if it keeps going wrong before they're able to 'get it'? What happens if they make the same mistakes against Liverpool and lose horribly like last season? We know. We've seen it before. They lose even more confidence. They get even more wound up, less able to play calmly and do the things they need to. They start losing faith in what the manager tells them to do. Next thing you know we've lost 4 or 5 games and the seasons massively on the slide. Now the coach is under pressure and you get whispers from agents about whether its worth trying to keep doing the stuff Ten Hag wants cos he might get fired at the end of the season.

This is not a script we haven't seen before at Man Utd.

If our reaction to a 4-5 game losing streak is calls for Ten Hag's head and those calls are heeded, we are fecked. What's the point of hiring Ten Hag otherwise?

 

[Lentwood]

You can't cheat the process. You need to learn to play like a good team even if you'll be embarrassed in the short term, except that short term is being relegated.

Pep and Klopp went through it and got flamed for not being "pragmatic". And look at them today.

Unless everyone on the team is getting shipped out, they need to learn to play like a good team. That won't happen automatically. Best we stick with learning for now with the players we have, instead of waiting for a collection of players and then coaching them how to play well. Brighton has done it with a worse collection of players. Why can't we?

Yeah well, City are the exception because they can buy a style overnight. I have talked before how it's not just the total amount you can spend that gives you a big advantage, it's how quickly you can spend it. Just like in any business, the speed at which you can write-off bad investments and make new investments is key.

Case in point, we have several positions we have needed to address forever, but because we only ever seem able to bring in one or two players per Summer, we're always left with 'legacy' investments. With City, they had two or three huge windows in a row and then settled down to buy one or two players per season once they had the framework.

I think what United need to do now is go back to the 4-2-3-1 or VOW to never compromise on players who can't play this style. If you don't think Fred and McTominay can play in a progressive system, sell them and move on. Even if we got came 15th, I wouldn't mind if we had a complete fire-sale and rebuilt from scratch.

You talk of Brighton but again, they didn't do it overnight. Their net spend is actually very high for a team of their stature thanks to Tony Bloom and they have bought and nurtured a squad of players which all perfectly suit their strengths and style. However, we're a bit more aspirational than Brighton, so as well as they have done, it's harder for us to achieve City/Liverpool level because we are fishing in a smaller pool of players.

 

[#07]

If our reaction to a 4-5 game losing streak is calls for Ten Hag's head and those calls are heeded, we are fecked. What's the point of hiring Ten Hag otherwise?

Going off the past 10 years, what makes you think this won't happen? Even if we all love Ten Hag, we know how this club is run. Why deceive ourselves about reality?

 

[adexkola]

Case in point, we have several positions we have needed to address forever, but because we only ever seem able to bring in one or two players per Summer, we're always left with 'legacy' investments. With City, they had two or three huge windows in a row and then settled down to buy one or two players per season once they had the framework.

I think what United need to do now is go back to the 4-2-3-1 or VOW to never compromise on players who can't play this style. If you don't think Fred and McTominay can play in a progressive system, sell them and move on. Even if we got came 15th, I wouldn't mind if we had a complete fire-sale and rebuilt from scratch.

You talk of Brighton but again, they didn't do it overnight. Their net spend is actually very high for a team of their stature thanks to Tony Bloom and they have bought and nurtured a squad of players which all perfectly suit their strengths and style. However, we're a bit more aspirational than Brighton, so as well as they have done, it's harder for us to achieve City/Liverpool level because we are fishing in a smaller pool of players.

Liverpool are more constrained than us on the financial front. Yet they were able to build a solid foundation of play based on current players, and used transfers to gradually change the squad and elevate the base level.

The pool for WC players is small, yes, but as Liverpool and others have shown, you only need a few of those players. The pool of just very good players is significantly larger and I don't see how a club of ours with it's size and pockets would be severely disadvantaged looking for talent in that space.

I'm not sure what the point of sticking to a specific formation is, it's not like we were not playing pragmatic under Ole the season he got sacked. Why expect an improvement under 4-2-3-1? Same players right?

But ultimately I do agree with you. There's no point playing 4-2-3-1 if the goal is to switch to something else next season. Commit to one way and drill the hell out of it, and bin players who can't play it.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I have to say....and it's going to sound like I am just defending Maguire here again...but I don't understand where this notion that he isn't good on the ball comes from? If you look above, there are so many posters talking about him as being part of our problem against a press, I really don't see that

I actually get why some people don't rate Maguire as a defender. Where they see someone who is cumbersome, I see someone who is exposed far too often by a poorly-structured team and a badly-organised press.

Where some people see someone who dives into tackles, I see someone who is aggressive and plays on the front-foot.

Nevertheless, I get it's a game of opinions...so I can see the other point-of-view here, even if I don't agree with it.

However, what I don't get is where the 'Maguire isn't good on the ball/is easily pressed' has come from?

Take any passing statistic you like, whether it's progressive passes/forward passes or just basic completed passes...Maguire comes out well/absolutely fine against many of his peers.

For me, you can't look past the GK, the two CMs and the RB as being our major issues here. Imagine for a second you're playing in THIS United side and you're Maguire/Lindelof/Martinez/Varane etc...would YOU have any confidence in passing the ball to Fred? Or McTominay? Or De Gea?

Not to interject out of nowhere but I think Maguire is the sort of player that would look especially better with a competent central midfield in front of him.

I think he's a very decent to above average passer of the ball (though my hot take is that the huge gaps in front of him caused by your lack of midfield artificially inflate his progressive passing numbers to some extent), but I do think he struggles with close control and with shifting the ball to avoid the press. For me he's the exact sort of player who has issues when options aren't readily available - and this is a problem both behind and in front of him.

I see what you're saying though in terms of some of these deficiencies being overblown - but at the same time he does have a pretty bad track record of shooting himself in the foot when pressed (off the top of my head, the Leicester and Watford matches last year, for instance). I guess my point is that whilst he has weaknesses, the structure around him almost seems tailor-made to augment and highlight them. I'd suspect this is a significant reason why he has been much better for England than Man United over the past few years.

 

[Skills]

Going off the past 10 years, what makes you think this won't happen? Even if we all love Ten Hag, we know how this club is run. Why deceive ourselves about reality?

What's this reality you're talking about?

 

[Lentwood]

Not to interject out of nowhere but I think Maguire is the sort of player that would look especially better with a competent central midfield in front of him.

I think he's a very decent to above average passer of the ball (though my hot take is that the huge gaps in front of him caused by your lack of midfield artificially inflate his progressive passing numbers to some extent), but I do think he struggles with close control and with shifting the ball to avoid the press. For me he's the exact sort of player who has issues when options aren't readily available - and this is a problem both behind and in front of him.

I see what you're saying though in terms of some of these deficiencies being overblown - but at the same time he does have a pretty bad track record of shooting himself in the foot when pressed (off the top of my head, the Leicester and Watford matches last year, for instance). I guess my point is that whilst he has weaknesses, the structure around him almost seems tailor-made to augment and highlight them. I'd suspect this is a significant reason why he has been much better for England than Man United over the past few years.

I think most players have issues when options aren't readily available though. I remember some video that was posted by an analyst who compared the passing channels at United, Chelsea and City. As you would expect, the biggest passing channels for the CBs and fullbacks at Chelsea and City were into the CMs. At United, we saw this bizarre picture where our biggest passing channels are Shaw and Maguire.

For all the criticism they get, they have probably been two of our only "press-resistant" players over the last few years, in that they can pick forward passes and keep the ball under pressure. The problem is whenever the ball goes into McTominay or Fred, it is only ever played backwards or given away. Likewise, when they go sideways to Dalot/AWB or backwards to De Gea, they generally find themselves again either scrambling to recover a lost ball or put right back under pressure when the ball is returned to them.

As bad as we are, I do think our biggest issue by a country mile is CM. We don't have one player who is comfortable on the ball in that position. I think IF we could sort that, we'd see an exponential improvement overnight - which is why I continue to find it mind-boggling bizarre we keep signing wingers and CBs!

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I think most players have issues when options aren't readily available though. I remember some video that was posted by an analyst who compared the passing channels at United, Chelsea and City. As you would expect, the biggest passing channels for the CBs and fullbacks at Chelsea and City were into the CMs. At United, we saw this bizarre picture where our biggest passing channels are Shaw and Maguire.

For all the criticism they get, they have probably been two of our only "press-resistant" players over the last few years, in that they can pick forward passes and keep the ball under pressure. The problem is whenever the ball goes into McTominay or Fred, it is only ever played backwards or given away. Likewise, when they go sideways to Dalot/AWB or backwards to De Gea, they generally find themselves again either scrambling to recover a lost ball or put right back under pressure when the ball is returned to them.

As bad as we are, I do think our biggest issue by a country mile is CM. We don't have one player who is comfortable on the ball in that position. I think IF we could sort that, we'd see an exponential improvement overnight - which is why I continue to find it mind-boggling bizarre we keep signing wingers and CBs!

Oh I completely agree mate - I think I was just trying to highlight that I think Maguire is especially unsuited to those situations and is poor at coping with them (mostly because he is a pretty shocking dribbler in close quarters), hence why I think a functional midfield would do wonders for him. I still think he's a good player, but he's been used as a square peg for a round hole - if you'll permit me to speculate for a moment I don't think the additional spotlight caused by the captaincy has ever been to his liking, and more tangibly the lack of a functional passing network has highlighted the weaker parts of his game.

CM is 100% your biggest issue though which I think we agree on. The fact that right now you have Fred, McTominay, Eriksen, and Garner as your CM collective is absolutely mind-boggling. Not to be a cnut or anything but Chelsea genuinely have 6 players in the squad who are all better in that role than any of yours - Kante, Kovacic, Jorginho, Gallagher, RLC, and you can throw in Reece James as well. That level of disparity is shocking to say the least - and it's not even like Chelsea have the best midfield in the league. Billy Gilmour looks to be off to Everton for peanuts - where on earth are United? He's not a world beater but he'd be a starter for you right now and assuming you further augment he'd be a useful squad player at least.

 

[Tibs]

To start, it'll help if we have a midfield.

Right now if our attackers are pressed, we either lose the ball or it goes to our defence.

If your defence is pressed, they pass to Dave can only boot it forwards where we may lose the ball, or we lose the ball.

 

[Hackman2210]

Sick of it. High press, low block. False 9, inverted fullbacks. Diamond, Christmas tree. Knock it on head and let’s get back to 4-4-2 big man little man. Worked for over 120years before all these Jonny foreigners turned up with their new fangled ideas. Hoof it long, win the knock down, kick someone, long throw in, elbows up 1-0 job done. Pint in stringfellows afterwards, page 3 stunner! All in a days work.

 

[Trequarista10]

We obviously need a top quality DM/DLP. Ideally a CM too, although a couple of our current options can do fine there in the right setup or in certain match ups.

In terms of tactics and working with what we've got, it's complicated because Bruno is our only player who in the past two years has shown form worthy of where we aspire to be, but he's truly dreadful from deep and essentially needs a completely free role at number 10, so a 433 isn't really workable unless he's in the front 3 which contains its own drawbacks. So 4231 is basically forced on us. Personally I'd look to get Sancho more infield rather than hugging the touchline, as he's a good outlet under pressure. And I'm not against being more direct/going long too. We have a few players who would suit a direct/counting pressing style. But that relies on all of our forwards taking part in a press, or competing to win aerials and second balls.

Also an advocate of 343. We have ball playing CBs which can alleviate some of the pressure on the midfield to play out facing a high press, it gets Bruno and Sancho both central and high, just lacking a quality RWB.

 

[Champ]

Counter the counter press

This is certainly one way.

It's what City do, it's what Liverpool do, press high up in the opposition when the ball is lost, surround them and smother them so even if you give the ball away when being pressed you get it back quick.

If you don't get the ball back within 5 to 7 seconds you revert back to a shape and wait for the next trigger to press.

Playing out from the press can be relatively easy if the ball is moved quickly, but most goals actually involve little passing (the more passes you make the less statistical chance there is to score a goal).

Most goals involve mistakes, so press the opposition high when they have the ball, when we have the ball and are being pressed make sure you have two touches maximum at the back, three in the middle and make sure the forwards spread wide to overload the channels for a long ball option.

Make sure you always have three to four players in or around the ball, that way you will always have two passing options at least, and let the full backs use the half spaces so they are tucked in when not actively engaged in play.

 

[bond19821982]

The main problem is that teams who can't play out against a press don't try to do it, they go long or hit the channels.

We have created this perfect sh*tstorm for ourselves were we pig-headedly insist on trying to play through the press despite having at least 4 or 5 players who are average/below-average on the ball.

We basically play into the hands of every team we play and don't pose them any real headaches. We're probably the easiest team to play against in the league.

I really feel what we need to do for now is drop back into Ole's 4-2-3-1 counterattack shape, or this season could get really, really, really bad

Why would we do that ? ETH is here to fix the issue and not copy Ole. We will have set backs but I would rather be patient and fix it than reverting to counter attacks.

 

[Greck]

It is a big problem, if it was just a problem for McFred then you could pray and hope that ETH can coach them to improve. But lets face it McFred won't become press resistance overnight and with all the other problems around the pitch you can only expect so many miracles from the manager.

Agree. The notion that players could simply be "coached" to become press resistant was always so misguided. After the last couple months could definitely go my entire life without hearing the word. I even feel the club actually believed all of them were just coaching away from being title level.

 

[lex talionis]

I hate to state the obvious, but the heart of the problem is the pairing of McTominay and Fred. The former has virtually zero ability on the ball and the latter has a tools in his bag but is in truth a liability with the ball in our our third. Their inability to transition the ball out of the back cannot be in overlooked in a discussion about what is holding United back from being a top six club to a top four club.

We have much more work to do to becoming a PL contender but there's no chance we can even become a top four club as long those two remain regular starters for us.

Sorry, but this is the brutal truth.

 

[Champ]

Just as a side note to claiming replacing DDG will transform us, he had a pass completion rate of around 78%, whereas Sanchez (apparently lauded for his distribution) had a completion rate of 31%.

Both attempted nearly the same amount of passes too.

 

[Lentwood]

Why would we do that ? ETH is here to fix the issue and not copy Ole. We will have set backs but I would rather be patient and fix it than reverting to counter attacks.

Yeah but if we continue down this path we'll end-up with a squad that is shattered and depleted of morale, none of which we will be able to sell for anything worth having and nobody will want to join us. Christ only knows were we might finish in the table...bottom-half wouldn't be out of the question.

There's the vision of what we might want to be and the reality of where we are. Right now, trying to play progressive football with De Gea, Dalot, Fred and McTominay is footballing suicide.

Surely, best thing to do is accept our (temporary) limitations, play a style that suits us, rebuild some confidence, try to achieve Champions League football (which we did twice under Ole) and build from there.

At the moment, we're a soft touch, the easiest team to play against in the league and a complete laughing stock

 

[JB7]

Just as a side note to claiming replacing DDG will transform us, he had a pass completion rate of around 78%, whereas Sanchez (apparently lauded for his distribution) had a completion rate of 31%.

Both attempted nearly the same amount of passes too.

It's hardly a like for like comparison considering half of De Gea's passes were to Maguire as part of the 3 man goal kicks whereas Brighton were clearly instructed to go long to try and get Welbeck in behind - 89% of his in play passes & 100% of his goal kicks were long balls forward.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Just as a side note to claiming replacing DDG will transform us, he had a pass completion rate of around 78%, whereas Sanchez (apparently lauded for his distribution) had a completion rate of 31%.

Both attempted nearly the same amount of passes too.

Pass completion rate for goalkeepers is a poor way of measuring how good they are on the ball.

It's a far bigger concern that DdG tried to go with his feet to deflect the cross for the first goal. Any modern goalkeeper is a yard further out from goal to cover the 6 yard box by diving but DdG's only focus is on shot-stopping - how many times must he show clearly that he can't be arsed to actually command his goalmouth? That's a far greater concern than his passing (which is also woeful).

 

[edcunited1878]

One thing that is getting overlooked is the numerical disadvantage United continue to allow themselves to be in, which is even more compounded by the lack of technical abilities individually and overall by the central midfield.

A center forward closes down the ball, whether it is DDG or the CB. The wide outlets or the fullbacks are marked. The two central midfielders are easily marked as well. That leaves the CB available, but the CB then has to carry the ball into midfield and find a higher level outlet as in the CAM or forward players, but that's a longer pass and losing possession would leave your team in a vulnerable state because the shape is all wrong...which is how McTominay was at direct fault for the first goal.

What one poster correctly identified was that in pre-season, United were much more compact when playing from the back and had more options or clear outlets to get through not only a press, but just be available for passes and move the ball up the pitch. But when the live matches start like against Brighton, the spatial differences were drastic and nothing like pre-season training, but from the previous seasons.

Eriksen has the technical skill to positively influence a midfield when marked or press, but he still needs players around him to show for him and be close to him to play off of.

Overall, not even comparing the technical abilities of the players, City, Liverpool, Chelsea, and Spurs all have 5 players to play a high press against...based on a back 3 (Chelsea and Spurs) or a midfield 3 (City and Liverpool). To that, Chelsea, City, and Liverpool have exceptional fullback outlets or at least one (City - Walker, Cancelo; Liverpool - TAA, Robertson; Chelsea - James). And someone from a higher forward line is able to come deep and facilitate play and help make up the numbers such as Kane or Son at Spurs, City could be Haaland or more likely KDB because he's the best midfielder in the league, Liverpool have Salah.

 

[edcunited1878]

Pass completion rate for goalkeepers is a poor way of measuring how good they are on the ball.

It's a far bigger concern that DdG tried to go with his feet to deflect the cross for the first goal. Any modern goalkeeper is a yard further out from goal to cover the 6 yard box by diving but DdG's only focus is on shot-stopping - how many times must he show clearly that he can't be arsed to actually command his goalmouth? That's a far greater concern than his passing (which is also woeful).

You can't completely abandon the near post and replays showed that Maguire didn't cover the space behind him where the ball eventually went through via cutback, because Maguire turns like an oil tanker and was caught ball watching per usual while not getting back into position covering space behind him...but DDG didn't cover himself in glory either.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

You can't completely abandon the near post and replays showed that Maguire didn't cover the space behind him where the ball eventually went through via cutback, because Maguire turns like an oil tanker and was caught ball watching per usual while not getting back into position covering space behind him...but DDG didn't cover himself in glory either.

True - but a yard shouldn't be the difference between completely abandoning the near post for me. Welbeck was on his weaker foot and had a very poor angle - De Gea has to do a better job of reading the situation and trusting in his own abilities to get down at his near post should it have been necessary. As it was, his positioning made the cross far far too easy. No top class goalkeeper should be allowing that cutback to go through 4 yards from the goalmouth.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Pass the midfield and send long balls down the channels for wingers to run onto...

 

[edcunited1878]

True - but a yard shouldn't be the difference between completely abandoning the near post for me. Welbeck was on his weaker foot and had a very poor angle - De Gea has to do a better job of reading the situation and trusting in his own abilities to get down at his near post should it have been necessary. As it was, his positioning made the cross far far too easy. No top class goalkeeper should be allowing that cutback to go through 4 yards from the goalmouth.

I agree his position could be better, but you'll see very similar goals like that and not much criticism of the GK. As far as DDG is concerned about being a solution to a press, he's adequate and not as bad as people make him out to be. But a GK and players who are forward facing with the ball need outlets. More players involved in the build up and in position to switch the play or go vertical in the channels.

If the press is pushing the ball wide towards the corner, someone has to be available short and then also someone has to be available inside to play an accurate quick pass, while other players are in position to continue the passing or someone is able to dribble and then switch to ball into space.

Using Chelsea as an example, there will always be a free CB who can push the ball up the pitch. James is very wide and a Kante or Jorginho can get a short pass from the open CB and somehow it gets wide quickly.

 

[edcunited1878]

Pass the midfield and send long balls down the channels for wingers to run onto...

You mean bypass the midfield, similar to how Felliani was epic against Liverpool in Juanfield? Only issue is that the current United don't really win a lot of second or third balls, especially when you only have 2 CMs. The most combative and engaging CM United have when it comes to these duels is Fred, but again, he has his inabilities which are very steep. But not having a focal point CF (or target man) on Sunday hurt the team and was super easy for the 3 CBs of Brighton.

 

[Stack]

Width at the back once the ball is won is one way to counter the press. The danger is switching the play across the back. Width makes it difficult for those pressing to cover the whole pitch. Width and switching of play but the important thing is countering the press involves the entire team so while fullbacks provide width at the back the midfield and wide forward players also need to move to give support in advance, to the side and behind the ball carrier. The moment we win the ball it needs to be moved to an opposite flank or if its won in the middle it needs to go wide to then be able to be switched.
The other less attractive way is to play it to the corners and press ourselves. this means that the front players have to know to move as a group to press the ball in the corners. Its dull and unattractive but it also means the opposition have to completely reset each time and they get sick of that after a while.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I agree his position could be better, but you'll see very similar goals like that and not much criticism of the GK. As far as DDG is concerned about being a solution to a press, he's adequate and not as bad as people make him out to be. But a GK and players who are forward facing with the ball need outlets. More players involved in the build up and in position to switch the play or go vertical in the channels.

If the press is pushing the ball wide towards the corner, someone has to be available short and then also someone has to be available inside to play an accurate quick pass, while other players are in position to continue the passing or someone is able to dribble and then switch to ball into space.

Using Chelsea as an example, there will always be a free CB who can push the ball up the pitch. James is very wide and a Kante or Jorginho can get a short pass from the open CB and somehow it gets wide quickly.

True - but it's very rare you see a goalkeeper try to deflect a cross like that out with his legs. That certainly doesn't help his argument.

Re: the press - I completely agree that your buildup structure makes no sense whatsoever, in no small part because of how static it is. Midfielders or defenders showing for the ball and / or making decoy runs doesn't really happen for United at the moment. That said, I do think DDG has serious flaws specifically - he's very very poor at receiving the ball in such a way as to set himself up for an immediate pass, he has no left foot whatsoever, his efforts at lofting passes to his fullbacks are generally a crapshoot, and to top it off his decision-making is often terrible in terms of understanding who is or isn't under pressure and what their options are likely to be.

 

[sglowrider]

It’s based on personnel, we don’t have enough technically proficient players to counter it. DDG, Maguire, McT, Fred, all are easily pressed. Can’t teach ‘em, just need to get better players. Unfortunately they form the defensive spine of our team so we’re slightly fecked.

The whole idea of getting a coach like ETH is so that he can train them. Its unrealistic to just go out and just buy ready-made players. That's why the root & branch re-organising will need to integrate the academy players and coaching more in line with the 1st team's.

Its just too early in the season to expect the current flock of players to have a totally different way of playing ingrained into them. Its just not muscle memory yet. It will take months before they have the tools and then face different scenarios and then apply those tools.

Plus ETH will make mistakes along the way. He failed to react to Potter's change in tactic. I think he under-appreciated the talent and quality of managers within the league. He will get a few more shockers this season.

 

[Red the Bear]

By getting press resistant players, that should do it.

Just look at Madrid and how fecking effortless their geriatric (and goat level) midfield managed to hold itself against world's most renowned pressing teams and they don't exactly play with a counter pressing style.

That's why getting Frenkie is so important and guarantees us jumping up a level and why i definitely think we should work on getting players like Zidane (who showed great potential in this regard in preseason) developed for that rrole.

Players like Modric don't come around often but considering our status we should be able to get the likes of his, just image what a verrati would have done for us.

If we want to play modern attacking football, that's a must.

 

[edcunited1878]

The whole idea of getting a coach like ETH is so that he can train them. Its unrealistic to just go out and just buy ready-made players. That's why the root & branch re-organising will need to integrate the academy players and coaching more in line with the 1st team's.

Its just too early in the season to expect the current flock of players to have a totally different way of playing ingrained into them. Its just not muscle memory yet. It will take months before they have the tools and then face different scenarios and then apply those tools.

Plus ETH will make mistakes along the way. He failed to react to Potter's change in tactic. I think he under-appreciated the talent and quality of managers within the league. He will get a few more shockers this season.

Feel like EtH nor the club and staff should be surprised. McClaren should know this. Ramsey the assistant coach should know the managers and teams. The advanced scouts and team opposition scouts should know these things. A large part of it is the fact that if your players don't have the baseline technical ability, you can't magically train them to do it well. Players who make up the core of your identity, as in the starting XI, have to be phased in and phased out gradually. Only 1 player has been phased in, that's Martinez. Every player is the same from previous years and they have shown that the majority of them, have deep flaws which cannot be ignored for too much longer if United are to progress along the lines of what EtH wants.

When the flaws of your starting XI are very deep, the margin for error is very slim, especially against good opponents who are well drilled and have continuity, such as Brighton. Those errors of McTominay and Fred, plus the weaknesses of DDG and Maguire...that's going to be hard to cover up in the type of football EtH is trying to deploy.

 

[sglowrider]

When the flaws of your starting XI are very deep, the margin for error is very slim, especially against good opponents who are well drilled and have continuity, such as Brighton. Those errors of McTominay and Fred, plus the weaknesses of DDG and Maguire...that's going to be hard to cover up in the type of football EtH is trying to deploy.

Unfortunately, I agree with what you are saying. I know it's unrealistic to change so many players in one window.

But I am surprised that he didn't at least get a ball-playing sweeper/goalie who can play out from the back as a very basic starting point first.

The limitations of McFred -- esp McT was for all to see for years now. So that's a no-brainer. And it looks like he is addressing it soon. There are options or at least 'less bad' options in the back four.

But none of our goalies (incl Heaton) can play the way he wants them to. And yet, no reports of at least getting a young high-potential goalie of his liking.

 

[The_Midfielder]

Replace Mcafred and see how we do

 

[edcunited1878]

Unfortunately, I agree with what you are saying. I know it's unrealistic to change so many players in one window.

But I am surprised that he didn't at least get a ball-playing sweeper/goalie who can play out from the back as a very basic starting point first.

The limitations of McFred -- esp McT was for all to see for years now. So that's a no-brainer. And it looks like he is addressing it soon. There are options or at least 'less bad' options in the back four.

But none of our goalies (incl Heaton) can play the way he wants them to. And yet, no reports of at least getting a young high-potential goalie of his liking.

GK seems to be the last resort, while developing the overall play style and tactical approach. Pep drafted in Bravo, but he wasn't up to it and it took a little more time but then they got Ederson. Klopp obviously persisted with some worse GKs than DDG until they spunked out for Allison. Spurs have a nice GK in Lloris, but he's getting up there. Kepa was a complete failure and the most expensive GK flop, but Chelsea were able to get Mendy for modest spend.

Teams build differently and DDG has an option year after this season...I'd be shocked if he renewed at the same wages. He should be allowed to stay at reduced wages, but with the understanding he's no longer the first choice and United are looking for a new starting GK...whether that is Henderson or from outside the club, don't care.

 

[sglowrider]

GK seems to be the last resort, while developing the overall play style and tactical approach. Pep drafted in Bravo, but he wasn't up to it and it took a little more time but then they got Ederson. Klopp obviously persisted with some worse GKs than DDG until they spunked out for Allison. Spurs have a nice GK in Lloris, but he's getting up there. Kepa was a complete failure and the most expensive GK flop, but Chelsea were able to get Mendy for modest spend.

Teams build differently and DDG has an option year after this season...I'd be shocked if he renewed at the same wages. He should be allowed to stay at reduced wages, but with the understanding he's no longer the first choice and United are looking for a new starting GK...whether that is Henderson or from outside the club, don't care.

Strange but you are right about Klopp's and Pep's low priority on the goalies. I guess I am ol' skool about goalies. If defenders don't have faith/trust in their goalie then they get nervous too and it cuts off one of their options. Then the midfielders get affected and start to over-compensate.

 

[Champ]

Pass completion rate for goalkeepers is a poor way of measuring how good they are on the ball.

It's a far bigger concern that DdG tried to go with his feet to deflect the cross for the first goal. Any modern goalkeeper is a yard further out from goal to cover the 6 yard box by diving but DdG's only focus is on shot-stopping - how many times must he show clearly that he can't be arsed to actually command his goalmouth? That's a far greater concern than his passing (which is also woeful).

Yeah, he should have probably dived towards the ball there, looked like he was worried about getting clattered by the onrushing striker.

But his passing isn't actually that bad, and I don't think changing DDG will suddenly change the way we play, we tried that with Henderson and we looked the same, just with added shakiness!