433 especially if Matic isn’t in the lineup. It’s getting far too easy for opposing teams to cut Fernandes off from the rest of the midfield, and it results in Martial and Rashford being isolated and having limited touches in the box.
Ole has no system that I can see ..... or do I just need better glasses?
- Thread starter The Boy
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433 especially if Matic isn’t in the lineup. It’s getting far too easy for opposing teams to cut Fernandes off from the rest of the midfield, and it results in Martial and Rashford being isolated and having limited touches in the box.
I think the issue is slightly nuanced in my opinion.
1. Ole is not this tactical dinosaur who just pats his players on the back when they head out asking them to enjoy the game. He's managed to win a lot of games against some of the more experienced and/or tactical managers (Nuno, Pep, Lampard, Mourinho etc) and that cannot be purely down to better motivation. In my mind, he often gets his tactics in the big games right.
2. However, the managers who are a step above, have a system in place that works for every type of game (slight tweaking from game to game of course) and this speaks to the ability to get your team to play in a set style (high pressing, fast transition, low block etc). I don't think Ole has the nous to put such a system in place and keep at it game after game.
And the more we play in a set system, the players get used to the same types of runs etc and we can perhaps see a lot more cohesion in our play, which is sadly lacking today when we come across a deep defending team.
1. Ole is not this tactical dinosaur who just pats his players on the back when they head out asking them to enjoy the game. He's managed to win a lot of games against some of the more experienced and/or tactical managers (Nuno, Pep, Lampard, Mourinho etc) and that cannot be purely down to better motivation. In my mind, he often gets his tactics in the big games right.
2. However, the managers who are a step above, have a system in place that works for every type of game (slight tweaking from game to game of course) and this speaks to the ability to get your team to play in a set style (high pressing, fast transition, low block etc). I don't think Ole has the nous to put such a system in place and keep at it game after game.
And the more we play in a set system, the players get used to the same types of runs etc and we can perhaps see a lot more cohesion in our play, which is sadly lacking today when we come across a deep defending team.
I'm not saying he needs 8 or 14, but what he does need is the right players to come in, in the right positions. He's obviously identified those players and his track record in his first two windows show enough that he should be backed to at least the same extent that LvG and Jose were (and that's despite both of them proving very little in the success of their transfers). One midfielder in a non-priority position is not showing backing. And that's before we consider that he had to get rid of all the players that he had to get rid of with no external replacements coming in, including our most consistent midfielder, our £70m striker and Sanchez. All of whom could easily have done a job in the short term and turned some of those losses into draws and wins early last season He more than did his end of the bargain. The board, haven't.
Jose got 6th in his first year and only got the most important of those trophies because he sacked off the league. And even then had to rely on John Guidetti to miss an open goal at the last minute.
It’s not exactly the same system is it. Bayern’s is much more fluid and aggressive. The striker isn’t the issue with United, it’s the ease with which the 10 is cut off from the two midfielders. Plus their midfielders aren’t always stuck in a double pivot and have more freedom.
It leaves their defensive shape non-existent but when they have the collection of talent that they have in the wide and forward positions, it doesn't matter. It helps that they play in a league where pretty much every game is a foregone conclusion and can cherry pick the best talents for next to nothing.
Unfortunately Utd doesn't enjoy such privileges in the Prem.
Opposing defenses definitely have a lot more to worry about, whereas James and TFM were essentially marked by Palaces left back alone for the majority of the match.
Yeah, the quality disparity between the two teams makes it an unfair comparison.
It was shit yesterday but the on the bright side it seems to be more of an issue regarding the execution of the tactics, rather than the tactics themselves. That execution issue is partly down to a lack of quality in certain areas like James and TFM, or because our best players all collectively shat the bed. On the latter, we know how they can play, and yesterday was not that.
Playing Fernandes as a 10 is a disservice to the player, we should be playing a 4-3-3 with Pogba operating on the left inner channel & Bruno the opposite.
It’s becoming far too easy to isolate him, it’s genuinely staggering we show no other plan b than 3-5-2; we have some poor players but are woefully under coached.
It’s becoming far too easy to isolate him, it’s genuinely staggering we show no other plan b than 3-5-2; we have some poor players but are woefully under coached.
4231 is basically just a variation of 433. Plus 433 can be set up lots of different ways.
The players didn’t look match fit today and played poorly into the bargain. I don’t think a simple change of system would have made much difference.
Most United fans will agree United won't be good if first 11 not started. Vdb the only player you added in the squad and he performed well in his cameo.
Thought ole underestimated palace pace or overestimated his defense.Deployed highline defense with slow defenders against Zaha and co always a recipe for disaster.
It's good for ole to understand his fringe players. It's better he should not trust them any more.Start vdb and Greenwood clearly a way forward.
Thought ole underestimated palace pace or overestimated his defense.Deployed highline defense with slow defenders against Zaha and co always a recipe for disaster.
It's good for ole to understand his fringe players. It's better he should not trust them any more.Start vdb and Greenwood clearly a way forward.
A good team that has an actual system should be able to handle a couple of changes even if the players coming in are not so great. It certainly should beat Palace (Who I think were missing players themselves) at home even with a less than perfect lineup.
You have to wonder. Yeah, of course you'd like to add more quality and depth. But isn't the urgency of the matter partly because we need to carry the manager?
You have to wonder. Yeah, of course you'd like to add more quality and depth. But isn't the urgency of the matter partly because we need to carry the manager?
Precisely.
I think we can also safely say Ole was headed for the sack last season until Bruno came and single-handedly dragged us to third. Again, his reliance on individual brilliance saved his job temporarily. Surely if we don't get top four this season (which looks very likely with or without Sancho), he's gone.
He's served up just too many shambolic displays to really tolerate anymore, and each one has the main theme of disjointedness and general cluelessness.
By now if he had an effective system it wouldn't suddenly go out the window at a moment's notice.
By now if he had an effective system it wouldn't suddenly go out the window at a moment's notice.
Think it was weird he moved away from the system he had used with great success post lockdown, he changed the tactics completely or the players just couldn’t execute them as well as they were. Pushing Shaw and Fosu up was a stupid decision for me.
You need better glasses.
Owners and board will be loving this narrative. Blame yet another manager to deflect from their shite ownership.
So true
All 'systems' rely on the players understanding that system and playing their part accordingly. I do think Ole has a system, but its pretty simple and breaks down easily when players are not thinking things through.
Or, as yesterday he had only a partially fit team who seemed to be half asleep especially in the first 15 -20 mins, and they didn't try things or when they did it was half-hearted. I lost count of the number of time our players, especially in one-on-one situations were physically moved off the ball, legally I mean, not unfairly, and quite easily; men playing boys was the impression it gave!
Yesterday, except for Donny when he came on there was little if any attempt at first touch movement, as might be expected what little there was came from Bruno and his colleagues unfortunately were still not his wave-length. Donny's first six or seven touches were all first touch movements (including the goal). For me the main faults are:
*When we don't have a proper DM (Matic) playing we are open to counter acts and the back four become vulnerable.
*We have not had, for some time, regular midfielders who go on runs that break beyond the front two into the box. Both Pogba and Bruno are more then capable of this but then one has to find the other, and that sort of understanding will take time to develop and require having a proper DM backing them up so they can risk this.
*Watching us try to play out from the back is either 'close your eyes time/heart in mouth time/ or "what the f**k time! and even when we do get it out of the box and or out of the first third of the pitch we then nine times out of ten start to move it sideways instead of forward.
*Although he's out of favor now, Lingard is our only player who regularly moves about without the ball, all the others wait until it looks like its coming to them until they move, or they want it to feet. Bruno's arrival has made this situation a bit better, but we need at least two players one up front one midfield who can become 'perpetual- motion' players, constantly running pulling defenses this way and that, or at least providing defenders with decisions to make, either to stay with the man with the ball, or follow the runner.
* Please, please, lets get someone who can take effective corner-kicks, that can vary them at least, etc. ...I notice nobody taking corners holds up their hands now before kicks!!
Or, as yesterday he had only a partially fit team who seemed to be half asleep especially in the first 15 -20 mins, and they didn't try things or when they did it was half-hearted. I lost count of the number of time our players, especially in one-on-one situations were physically moved off the ball, legally I mean, not unfairly, and quite easily; men playing boys was the impression it gave!
Yesterday, except for Donny when he came on there was little if any attempt at first touch movement, as might be expected what little there was came from Bruno and his colleagues unfortunately were still not his wave-length. Donny's first six or seven touches were all first touch movements (including the goal). For me the main faults are:
*When we don't have a proper DM (Matic) playing we are open to counter acts and the back four become vulnerable.
*We have not had, for some time, regular midfielders who go on runs that break beyond the front two into the box. Both Pogba and Bruno are more then capable of this but then one has to find the other, and that sort of understanding will take time to develop and require having a proper DM backing them up so they can risk this.
*Watching us try to play out from the back is either 'close your eyes time/heart in mouth time/ or "what the f**k time! and even when we do get it out of the box and or out of the first third of the pitch we then nine times out of ten start to move it sideways instead of forward.
*Although he's out of favor now, Lingard is our only player who regularly moves about without the ball, all the others wait until it looks like its coming to them until they move, or they want it to feet. Bruno's arrival has made this situation a bit better, but we need at least two players one up front one midfield who can become 'perpetual- motion' players, constantly running pulling defenses this way and that, or at least providing defenders with decisions to make, either to stay with the man with the ball, or follow the runner.
* Please, please, lets get someone who can take effective corner-kicks, that can vary them at least, etc. ...I notice nobody taking corners holds up their hands now before kicks!!
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Ole really is out of his depth, I don't think we will win anything with Ole as a manager. Just look at it, Rushford's form has been bad since he came back from injury and week in week out he is in the starting XI. Martial on his day will create trouble for any defence but he is not a reliable goal scorer, I rather take Danny Ings over Martial. James will be going back to championship in the next 1-2 years. He refuse to drop De Gea even he is no longer at the top of his game. Pogba is a luxury players, ask Klopp if he prefer Pogba or Henderson, I guess it would be the latter. How about tactics?
I am watching Tottenham, Son is playing so narrow supporting Harry Kane scoring 2 goals while Rushford and James stay out in the wide spaces. Watching Martial goes against 2-3 defenders. Obviously, manager decide how we play. Here we have 2 full back told to defend while our 3 forward struggle in the game. Well done Ole and all the assistant coaches.
I am watching Tottenham, Son is playing so narrow supporting Harry Kane scoring 2 goals while Rushford and James stay out in the wide spaces. Watching Martial goes against 2-3 defenders. Obviously, manager decide how we play. Here we have 2 full back told to defend while our 3 forward struggle in the game. Well done Ole and all the assistant coaches.
Any idea what was the thought process behind starting Mctominay rather than Matic or even Fred?
Mctominay is good when he plays with Matic or Fred next to him. He doesn't have the discipline or vision to play the holding role and that forced Bruno and Pogba to keep coming deep.
We need Fred or Matic to play the holding role with Bruno and Pogba given the license to alternate between staying back and making the forward runs as both are capable of playing from the deep or making the killer pass closer to the opposition D.
Mctominay is good when he plays with Matic or Fred next to him. He doesn't have the discipline or vision to play the holding role and that forced Bruno and Pogba to keep coming deep.
We need Fred or Matic to play the holding role with Bruno and Pogba given the license to alternate between staying back and making the forward runs as both are capable of playing from the deep or making the killer pass closer to the opposition D.
This is the point I have been making since he got appointed. We should play a bigger CF with Martial alongside him and dropping deeper. And play a 4 man midfield. No, Ole cannot change his system because he does not know anything else.
If Ole weren't a fan favourite from his playing days, he would have been sacked a long time ago.
For over achieving by coming 3rd last year?
Yep. Some of our fans are so gullible or blind or both!
So shambolic and clueless that he massively over achieved last season by coming 3rd, despite virtually every fan predicting we’d finish outside top 4?
Honestly do you even think about what you write?
What you wrote makes no sense, it has nothing to do with what I said.So shambolic and clueless that he massively over achieved last season by coming 3rd, despite virtually every fan predicting we’d finish outside top 4?
Honestly do you even think about what you write?
I said Ole served up too many shambolic displays in the time period ranging from him first being appointed manager, up until the last season. I didn't say anything about our final finishing position.
If you need to spend 200m every season just to get to beat CP at home i think you have a problem.
Look at CP squad. They have 1-2 star players and the rest of the cannon fodder were given tactics to make them solid.
You dont need 11 superstar. You need 6 functioning midfielder and defender with a system and the rest can worry about scoring goals. Our style of play have no cohesion, no unity, disjointed passing.
Playing high defensive line and exposing your CB is not a good man management. It's Lindelof fault but probably a better manager would not put him in that situation to make that error.
Look at CP squad. They have 1-2 star players and the rest of the cannon fodder were given tactics to make them solid.
You dont need 11 superstar. You need 6 functioning midfielder and defender with a system and the rest can worry about scoring goals. Our style of play have no cohesion, no unity, disjointed passing.
Playing high defensive line and exposing your CB is not a good man management. It's Lindelof fault but probably a better manager would not put him in that situation to make that error.
System under Moyes, cross it to Fellaini
System under Van Gaal retain the ball and bore them into submission
System under Jose, rely on a moment of magic
System under Ole, rely on a moment of magic.
4 managers who’ve all failed to implement an effective system. Obviously this all goes deeper than the bloke who sits and covers the players arses in pressers.
Ole has thus far been the only 1 to get us playing some decent football in his purple patches here, then it tends to revert back to tumescent shite after 10 or so games. Maybe we need to take a serious look at the coaching staff, as drills and patterns of play are where?
This ain't going to be fixed by sacking the manager. Your right that Ole may not be the right person. But in my eyes the board and owners need to change. They are the ones that should be held accountable. Otherwise it's just the same cycle repeating. Once there is change above the manager we can then sack Ole if he isn't the right guy.
Unpopular opinion but LVG had the best purple patches. When his football worked, man did it look good. Problem was what it looked like when it didn't work, which was a lot
If his team was so shamblic they wouldn’t have come 3rd and got to semi finals for fun. Any shambolic performances were because he didnt have enough quality players for his chosen tactics and then didn’t have the bench strength once he’d plugged some gaps.
OleOut crew will twist and agitate from every angle to score some internet points. Isn’t it exhausting to sabotage your manager every time you can? I don’t understand how you get any joy from this.
Lvg fecked himself by buying poor players and hamstringing himself with Rooney (we were playing with 10 men essentially as he made him undroppable)
Had he been more sensible with his signings, he would've done fine. You plug Pogba and Bruno into his team and they wouldn't have much problems with creativity.
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His football for me really started clicking right at the last third of the 2nd season but by then the damage had been done and many people had made minds about him no matter what he was doing. I think Giggs and Rooney had also felt that the team had got going right at the end and it possibly took that much time because his he has so many tactics to use and its complex so it took alot of time.
Giggs was talking about how they were using diamonds, 3 at the back and all sorts throughout the game.
Run to the box to get a penalty or bore the opponent passing backwards and sideways, then hope Pogba (playing too deep), Fernandes (too high), Rashford (rarity), Greenwood and Martial can create something quick and special while they're unaware and the FB's are not ruining it.
Opening day of the season against a team we are heavily favoured to win and I've felt so defeated even just going down by a goal down in the 7th minute. The players never look up for it and never look like they were going to equalize. No game-plan, no grit, no fight at all. Truly horrific. Our purple patch seem to come from just motivation and this is why the whole team's structure is questionable now as long as Ole is in charge. As long as he is our manager, we will never achieve anything great.
So judging by the bolded you do agree with me that those shambolic displays did happen. Great.What we disagree on is the reason why.
I remember the reason being that he needs a preseason with the team, but then it's changed so much over the months that I'm not keeping track anymore and I don't care too much for the excuses. As long as we both agree that he's served up quite a few shocking performances I'm fine leaving it there.
I agree, but it's up to Ole to do that. And if he can't or unwilling to, and these sorts of displays continue, he will eventually have to leave.
Nah, he would have been sacked the year before after that long winless run.
He has no backup plan when any of his starters aren't available and it's telling that we keep dropping points against the lousier teams.
And yet we all seem to agree that all the back up players are all deadwood or unreliable, the ‘drop off’ in quality is too big for them to be trusted.
So how do you make a back up plan when that’s the case? Honestly I’d love to know