Why not?.
So when we don't score against so called lesser sides, fans are out here saying Ole out because we cannot break down smaller teams and a low block. Our team isnt good enough.
When we score 4 against a smaller team, its only Norwich?
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Why not?.
So when we don't score against so called lesser sides, fans are out here saying Ole out because we cannot break down smaller teams and a low block. Our team isnt good enough.
When we score 4 against a smaller team, its only Norwich?
Still some people on here don't see that progress have actually been made since the start of the season. "Not been able to beat the shit teams" has been a stick to beat Ole with. The long winded article shows that the problem is getting solved.
You’ve litterally bastardised my post & then reiterated the exact point I made about the OgS in & OgS out crowds.
What a terrible level of shithousery.
Also to add context [2 days after the fact] the post I responded to was one made minutes after we went 1-0 up.
Unsure what your point is. . . Posting what they did after going 1-0 up against Norwich was an overreaction, you know what my top 2 lines you edited out say.
Yes, these are welcome observations... but I disagree that this is some sort of special management style. The Prem League, in terms of quality, is the most average it has been for some time. Liverpool are miles ahead, with only City close by in terms of consistency and quality. My point being is that 'average' almost seems to be the new 'very good'. Fred still, in my opinion, isn't even close to what I want from a Manchester United first XI centre midfielder. But yes he is better than he was. McTominay is getting better.. but to me, he should still be fighting for his place, alongside other players. He isn't that good, and I like him very, very much. Martial is still Martial, no change there. Still not a leader. Not a match-winner.. not an inspiration. Rashford, McTominay.. these are players that have stepped up a gear. Martial hasn't. Greenwood is a v good footballer, and is emerging as our key talent. Daniel James has been steady following a great start. Williams.. still too early, but he seems ok.
But none of this equates to some fantastic coaching. Rashford held out for a new contract remember, and has had to show a little humility if anything....
Sorry, no OGS 'magic' here. We are 5th, in an average league. I could not say we are 'better'.
When someone claims there's a progress since we beat the worst PL's team by far this season I be like you gotta be kidding, bro. Moreover, using it to justify our current table position or such a fanatic credit to Ole looks ridiculous. Previous managers were slaughtered by fans for even less. Not that I'm so against Ole because I don't see any sense to sack him and replace him with another one unlucky guy to struggle once more under Glazers, but some people give an enormous credit to Ole, although his results are nearly same as they were under Mourinho his last season.
I wouldn't say that this is an average league at all. There are two great teams in this league right now. Those aside there isn't ever a fixture where you can't foresee an unusual result. I haven't bothered doing any PL accumulators this season because its just bad value. All 7 clubs made it though their respective European groups and an English team is favourite to win both tournaments as of right now. That doesn't strike me as anything like an average league, but each to their own on that one.
As for Ole's role in all this - its also open to interpretation. We don't see enough of what goes on at Carrington to say 'I'm right', but we can see that all of those players have improved, and are improving. If I was manager I would want credit for that, and if he had a sexier CV I'm certain we wouldn't even be questioning it - none of us.
Thats what makes it more difficult to be a defender of this manager than the opposite. We have real life issues to discuss. We know what has happened. We know the results & performances, and we know who has improved and who hasn't etc etc. Its all out there to be defended or shot down depending on how you feel. What we don't have is an alternate timeline to judge the other views. Its so easy to say 'we would be better under X' or 'we should have spent our money on the midfield' or whatever else because nobody has to justify that with reality. Its all just opinion - and lets be honest most people think they know more about football than the average guy, and that they see things that others don't. How can you argue against that?
We don't know if Poch would make us better. We don't know if this team would have been better with a different summer recruitment strategy. We don't know if Greenwood or Williams would have emerged the way that they have, or whether Rashford would have scored 10 goals more or 10 goals less. Its just an endless series of 'we don't knows' which creates unlimited bullets for those who just don't fancy this management team. Ultimately all we have to do is decide on what has happened. I think a lot of players have improved. I think our transfer strategy is sound and I'm confident it will continue to be. I think the team are moving in the right direction and could be really excellent in 2 seasons time, and I also think that being in 5th and doing okay so far in the cups is a better achievement that is given credit for. Many disagree.
i mean not sure how previous managers would get the boot for not finishing 4th yet Ole is getting a huge pass it seems if we can't snag that 4th spot at the worst, especially considering how this has to be one of the poorest top 4 races in a long time. Spurs and arsenal are in shambles, chelsea are pretty young and inconsistent it seems as well. Currently 11 points back of freaking leicester FFS. Need to get some sort of midfield signing n and then if Ole can't show signs of actual coaching and get top 4 bin him off and find a real manager.
Again what are you actually talking about............its like some sort of pseudo football psychology theory you just plucked out based on nothing
Jim you bugger! It’s been a while man. Good post.
Again what are you actually talking about............its like some sort of pseudo football psychology theory you just plucked out based on nothing
Agree to disagree, please sir!
You do know that the majority of Ole’s goals and his best games to goals ratio came from matches he started? He was a really good option from the bench, but it’s been overstated how specialised he was when it came to that.
Appreciate the balanced response, so thanks for that. But I disgaree with a number of points. Firstly, to suggest that this Prem is anything but average actually surprises me. Look at us, and we are one place outside a CL place!!!!! Is there much difference between us, and say Everton? Arsenal? Sheff Utd? Wolves? Please don't state that these are great teams.. and we certainly are not... it's all much-of-a-muchness. This is not neccesarily unique to the Prem... La Liga, Bundesliga, Ligue 1.. all I feel are in a state of 'transition', with clubs building up capacity and quality again.. Serie A is interesting right now, as the likes of Napoli, Roma, Lazio, Inter all pushing Juve closer than usual... Tottenham reached the CL final, and look at them, so what does that tell you? Re OGS on the training ground, well, I cannot see any real tactic apart from playing on the break. We don't seek to out play, out fight, play direct, set-pieces... we don't have flying full-backs etc... other managers define their teams with a plan, and I do not see an OGS 'style' of play.
All we've seen is inconsistency. I don't think I'd call that as player improvement.
A competent board would do anything to sign Poch. He's miles better than Ole and has proven he can improve players at several clubs while playing attacking football. But sadly we don't have a competent board and he'll get snapped up by someone else as we will meddle in mediocrity for the next few years.
And even if you did, you surely see the sillyness of using the last day of a managers 27 year spell (9681 days to be exact) at a club to include him as part of post condemning the club for going through managers too fast and being a shambles? I mean, some common sense please man.
I have no idea why you've focused on that anyway rather than the rest of my post, on average here our mangers since Fergie have been given 20 months. I won't be as silly as to include SAF in my post to make it look like we give everyone of our past 5 managers 6.8 years on average
7th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 6th.
Let's be honest, the answer is none. United are still one of the most patient clubs around, the most patient top club for sure. All that is expected is a basic standard and you keep the job.
Also Doug... since June 2013 the following clubs and their managers:
Madrid x 6 (Zidane is 2 of the 6)
Bayern x 5
Chelsea x 5
United x 4
PSG x 3
Barcelona x 3
Juventus x 3
And all of those clubs have been winning titles during that spell.
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RAB I believe we are talking at cross purposes because we are looking at two different things.
My overall point is that over six years and seven months United will have had six different managers if they fire and replace Ole now. To me that creates an unstable environment at a time when United are going through a difficult and lengthy period of rebuilding from ground zero.
You, on the other hand, are looking at how much time clubs give managers before replacing them. Your point is that there are top clubs in the world that turn over their managers on a short-term basis and do quite well. It's a good point but five of the 7 clubs you list, don't have to and didn't have to rebuild. They play in leagues where they or at most along with one other team dominate their league year-end year out. They really don't seem to be comparable to United in terms of today's difficult and lengthy rebuilding.
Of the seven you list only Chelsea is in a league where not even a top four position is guaranteed. My opinion is the Chelsea are not facing a rebuilding job like United but reasonable people could differ.
The type of rebuilding United has undertaken, whether by choice or financial necessity, is developing its young players. They are not engaged in the type of rebuilding undertaken by Manchester City who simply outspent everybody and bought the top players in the world. My bias is for a United manager with expertise in developing young players which is a long term process. I'm not sure that hiring a tactical wizard to direct a team with zero depth and a partial midfield would be the answer. Maybe if United was going to spend like City did, this would be feasible but there's no sign that I can see that United are going to do that.
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People like you guys focusing on the irrelevant things like these man.
That's pretty interesting. Thank you for posting that.
To be fair, it'd be even better if one could compare it with league avg. against placement by season (i.e. if the fifth/sixth place team tends to go through an uptick such as this every seasons)
I jumped on the 'Ole out' bandwagon after Arsenal. A young, developing side we may well be, but i had strong reservations about tactics, (or lack of), personnel and mentality/motivation.
Anyhow, to remind me just how bleak things were under DM and to act as a comparison to those who have fallen since with OGS' first full season at the helm, I've had a look back through Moyes, LVG and Jose's starts to their first (or only) season in charge:
1. JM (16-17)
P22 W11 D8 L3 F34 A21 PTS 41
2. LVG (14-15)
P22 W11 D7 L4 F36 A21 PTS 40
3. DM (13-14)
P22 W11 D4 L7 F34 A27 PTS 37
4. OGS (19-20)
P22 W9 D7 L6 F36 A25 PTS 34
Now, personally, I'd argue the squad we have now is just as underwhelming as that DM inherited from Sir Alex. Obviously there were a couple of 'World-Class' operators in Rooney and RVP, both of whom largely under performed under Moyes.
LVG's signings largely flopped but he still managed a respectable start after 22 games and Jose continued on the theme of making United harder to beat to lead us to 41 points after the same number of games.
A lot has been talked about in terms of the EPL being in transition and i would agree that with the exception of Liverpool, it's the weakest it's been for some time.
So if you consider the above, do the facts state the obvious in the Ole is inherently weaker than his predecessors or at least underperforming with the tools at his disposal (I'm not claiming this is a great United side by any stretch...merely playing devil's advocate) or do those who are still on board Ole's juggernaut or indeed entirely neutral have some points to put to the floor..
Anyhow, to remind me just how bleak things were under DM and to act as a comparison to those who have fallen since with OGS' first full season at the helm, I've had a look back through Moyes, LVG and Jose's starts to their first (or only) season in charge:
1. JM (16-17)
P22 W11 D8 L3 F34 A21 PTS 41
2. LVG (14-15)
P22 W11 D7 L4 F36 A21 PTS 40
3. DM (13-14)
P22 W11 D4 L7 F34 A27 PTS 37
4. OGS (19-20)
P22 W9 D7 L6 F36 A25 PTS 34
Now, personally, I'd argue the squad we have now is just as underwhelming as that DM inherited from Sir Alex. Obviously there were a couple of 'World-Class' operators in Rooney and RVP, both of whom largely under performed under Moyes.
LVG's signings largely flopped but he still managed a respectable start after 22 games and Jose continued on the theme of making United harder to beat to lead us to 41 points after the same number of games.
A lot has been talked about in terms of the EPL being in transition and i would agree that with the exception of Liverpool, it's the weakest it's been for some time.
So if you consider the above, do the facts state the obvious in the Ole is inherently weaker than his predecessors or at least underperforming with the tools at his disposal (I'm not claiming this is a great United side by any stretch...merely playing devil's advocate) or do those who are still on board Ole's juggernaut or indeed entirely neutral have some points to put to the floor..
How anyone can look at the premier league at the moment and think it is average is utterly beyond me.
The correct word is competitive. People say it's average because of the points gap and you see "big" teams losing to smaller teams, but that's not the whole story as of now.
Just take a look at the Champions league. And how well the english teams has been doing there recently.
Last season it was Spurs and Liverpool in the final. And 4 teams in the quarter finals.
Season before that, english team in the final
So far in the current one, 4 teams in the quarters..
English teams has been really really good in Europe lately. Its by far the most challenging league.
As underwhelming? Moyes inherited a squad of serial winners, reigning league champions. Most of the integral components were past their best days, sure, but do you not think Rio, Vidic, Carrick, Rooney, RvP, etc. would walk right into our line-up these days?
Rooney, possibly RVP yes. But based on that season, the other's wouldn't have walked in, no, as you rightly point out, most if not all were well past their peaks.
I watch a lot of EPL games. It might be unfair to make this statement after coming out of a festive period that invariably leads to a drop in quality, but in my opinion, just because the League is competitive, doesn't mean to say its strong. The football league is competitive..
Again as has been alluded to elsewhere, a lot of Europe's top leagues/teams appear to be in transition. I feel this slightly skews the argument when it comes to English teams in Europe.
OK. Two questions:
OK, I have two questions :
1: Do you think we are an average team, our current team, squad, etc?
2: Aside from Liverpool and Man City, who the teams that are not average (in your opinion). I could concede Leicester as being a good side this season.
The Prem is competitive, for sure. But the quality is average.
I know, it’s pathetic, complain about something and then rectify it and then make an excuse for rectifying it to simply continue a narrative.
I’ve soon found out that you can never win on the CAF and someone will always have a moan.
If Ole won the treble again, people would still complain.
Welcome to the ligical world of the Ole-out brigade.
Nothing he does will ever satisfy them, you only have to read threads after a win, it's like we've been beaten again or, as you said, moan we don't win against lower teams and then moan when we do.
I'd say he is doing as well as expected with the players he has available. This team, although very young, has the potential to get much better as the players gain experience but, unfortunately, is not yet at the same level as previous managers had. Moyes especially, should have done much better with the players he had.
It will now take time to rebuild the squad left from the mish mash of manager philosophies that have gone before and, imo, Ole has made a good start on that aspect.
You don't think Rio or Vida would be an improvement on Lindelöf? You don't think Carrick in 2013, having come off his best season for us, would be of tremendous use to our midfield?
To me you are either underrating them, or you are overrating our current squad... or both. At any rate I reckon the gap in our viewpoints can't be bridged, so I'll leave it at that.
Did you see Rio at QPR the season after? Vidic lasted half a season like the poster said these guys were finished. It’s just a credit to Fergie if anything. I mean would you swap Welbeck for Rashford or Martial?
Thing is, Moyes did not clear the squad and rebuild. Had he done that, he probably would hva fared better.
If you go back seven years SAF was manager and therefore you have to count him in the number of managers we have had in the last seven years or else it would be factually incorrect.
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Yep, the thing is nothing Ole will do will satisfy the caf.
Even though alot of us feel he is not the right man, sometimes credit is due.
I agree the players have loads of potential and there are still some very promising youth players at the club who haven't made the jump to the first team yet but I for one like seeing a young team being developed instead of very expansive players being bought just to flop. At the minute we can't buy a winning team anyway. Let's keep improving our homegrown talent and if a really great player is available and the deal makes financial sense buy him to improve areas where the talent isn't quite where we want it to be.
You can't have it both ways. You could say we've had 4 permanent managers after SAF or we've had 5 managers in the last 34 years. Counting SAF as if he only managed us for a year isn't logical.
Good on you editing in a new article, adds much more depth to your argument
But you forgot to edit them fan quotes(And the other posters pointing it out). Two posters who know Cardiff very well have given you some pretty detailed info, but you refuse to take anything on board. If you still want to say Ole failed massively in the championship with only two losses, that is fine.
So no one need to discredit anything..
I know of Abanndonato very well. Listen to his podcast every week (Not his, but he is on there every time). As much as i like him, he dosen`t know the difference between inside forward and wingers. But lets leave it there, shall we?
Great idea. One problem. We aren’t Ajax and we don’t play in the Eriderverse... enough with the mid table ambitions.
Good on you editing in a new article, adds much more depth to your argument
(And the other posters pointing it out). Two posters who know Cardiff very well have given you some pretty detailed info, but you refuse to take anything on board. If you still want to say Ole failed massively in the championship with only two losses, that is fine.
So no one need to discredit anything..
I know of Abanndonato very well. Listen to his podcast every week (Not his, but he is on there every time). As much as i like him, he dosen`t know the difference between inside forward and wingers. But lets leave it there, shall we?
You’d hadn’t heard of Abanndonato before I mentioned it so please stop with your lies.
No, i know all that of Cardiff. But i have never heard of Paul. Or even his mate Steve Tucker(Dead now) who was his compadre at WOL at the time.Just leave it mate. Feckin hell
You google’d Wales Online paper. Bravo to you. That’s the dangerous thing about google, I can do a few searches and go on nuclear physics forum and imply that I’m well versed in nuclear physics .
Just leave it mate. Feckin hell
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