Confused. One of the main points from Ole in people to give him more time is that he made great signings. Now you say this which basically means our signings are not so good, which is true if you think without rose-tinted glasses. So which one is it?
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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7 out 3 in, so he's significantly short in numbers.
Who knows what went on behind the scenes but it's pretty well accepted that the club were in for Dybala and Eriksen so they wanted a number 10.
It's generally accepted they wanted Longstaff - so they were in for a central midfield player and if Mandzukic was true a striker.
Add a central midfield player, number 10 and striker to this squad and it would make a massive difference.
If you think Ole was happy losing Lukaku, Sanchez, Herrera and Fellaini with just Dan James coming in, I really question your common sense.
I guessing it’s both, simultaneously.
Serious @POF how can you be pleased with the rebuilding job Ole is currently doing yet post this as a response to me?
These quotes apparently from Ole today about Lingard:
"Of course we want him back, scoring goals, making assists," Solskjaer said.
"There’s no one who runs as much as Jesse. He’s great in pressing, he’s a lively, bubbly character.
"You don’t see as much in the social media as you used to with Jesse, he’s got his head down and working hard. I’ve known him for many years, he’s getting back to the Jesse I knew."
"Of course we want him back, scoring goals, making assists," Solskjaer said.
"There’s no one who runs as much as Jesse. He’s great in pressing, he’s a lively, bubbly character.
"You don’t see as much in the social media as you used to with Jesse, he’s got his head down and working hard. I’ve known him for many years, he’s getting back to the Jesse I knew."
You think I have the exact same opinion of all members of the mythical "Ole in" club?
The point is that these are signings chosen by Ole. It's a stupid structure where the manager (now with an extremely short job expectancy tenure) chooses the signings. If you are going to persist with this structure where the manager manages the rebuild, you need to at least let him do it before sacking him.
I believe the club’s transfer board ok’d all 3 transfers actually.
They were club signings, not Ole signings and that was my point earlier.
From my understanding the committee is made up of:
Head Coach, Assistant Manager, Technical Chief Scout (currently Mick Court), Head of Global Scouting (currently Marcel Bout) and Chief Scout (currently Jim Lawlor).
Each man has a vote, each man has a veto.
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We know you are
What about that is clueless?
Genuine question, who is on the transfer board, who heads it up and who has overall responsibility for managing the recruitment strategy?
Are they different from those involved while Jose was manager? Because it was well documented that it was up to the manager to provide a "list of targets" prior to each window.
Even if these signings were ok'd by a transfer board, the manager still makes the choice (according to Ole). If he's driving that rebuild, he needs to be allowed to finish it.
I think it's a terrible strategy but while this is the strategy, sticking with Ole is the club's best chance of success.
I agree that his coaching stuff is pretty shit but isn't much easier and logical for top club like us to hire manager who is at top in his job? This is not coaching academy where you learn how to be a manager ffs.
From my understanding the committee is made up of:
Head Coach, Assistant Manager, Technical Chief Scout (currently Mick Court), Head of Global Scouting (currently Marcel Bout) and Chief Scout (currently Jim Lawlor).
Each man has a vote, each man has a veto. That stops anyone having full control. Any of them can add a name to the list.
Yes Ole has a final say on who comes in (as he said), but the same is true for Jim or Mick.
Why on Earth do you think this strategy means sticking with a poor coach is the club’s best chance of success
That makes absolutely no sense.Is the reason loads back Ole because they don’t understand that Mourinho lost his shit and his job because the club made these changes? Do they not realise the club hired Ole because the entire club had decided to go with this vision, it’s not Ole’s vision, it’s first and foremost the clubs and this time it will continue to the next manager and will be the most important criteria in picking a new manager.
We finally (no doubt thanks to Fergie & Gill on the advisory board) have gotten this bit in order.
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We weren't in for Dybala. I don't know why people keep saying this. The player was offered to us by Juve because they wanted to hijack Romelu deal to Inter. That's about it regarding this transfer. Nothing more. A player offered to us in a swap deal, not us that moved in for him.
As for Eriksen, we though of him as a panic buy in the last few days of the market and ended up not moving for him iirc. We also rejected signing Bruno because apparently he has a low passing range, something only the manager can evaluate, if the reports are correct. Also all these aren't strikers anyway.
The only 2 players we were strongly linked with and arguably Ole wanted than our other 3 players we signed were Longstaff and Mandzukic. The first one would have costed 50m and we backed off from the deal and decided to splash the cash on Maguire instead. I don't think that would have been done without Ole's permission. Of course he was asked about that and I bet he thought a CB was more important, considering he said after we signed Maguire that he was his "top target" this summer. As for Mandzukic as I said would have been a short term backup option at best not a starting player, a type of signing that indicates Ole just wanted him to replace Lukaku on the bench while depending on Martial and Rashford. Hardly that effective of a loss.
Finally, we were never going to buy anything more than 3-4 players, especially after blasting 80m on a defender. With Maguire deal we had spent 150m in summer. Best we would have done after that was spending another 40-50m on a 4th player and that's about it. Anything more than that is day dreaming for us with how each player costs nowadays. Mourinho himself couldn't saction more than 4 players in any of his 3 markets even in his first one and the 4th signing this summer was a free one (Zlatan) . Ole should have known that better and not go mass selling before getting replacements.
Another point is Lukaku was sold in the last day of the market so since we failed to sign a striker we could have refused to sell him and forced him to stay for now. It's not like we weren't under control. He was still under contract and we had the final decision, could have kept him for a season even as a bench option only and he wouldn't have been able to do anything other than shutting up and playing. I mean we literally have a player currently that doesn't want to stay (Pogba) and he has shut up after the summer market closed.
Another option would have been to postpone Maguire deal till Jan and spend these 80m on Longstaff and a striker while keeping Smalling for now. Not like anyone was interested in Maguire anyway and City backed off from the deal because he thought he was overpriced.
Some say it was our fault that we sold Lukaku late so we couldn't get a replacement. I mean every sense of logic says as long we have Lukaku we can enter a negotiation with another club wanting their striker without being afraid of getting bullied because we aren't that desperate to buy and we can always tell them we will keep Lukaku and won't pay that much for their player. Buying after selling your main striker puts you in weak position in any negotiation. Each club will know you are desperate to get their player and will bully you into the price they want.
Ultimately, Ole was in position for all these decisions regarding whom we signed and whom we sold and he needs to take responsibility for his choices of preferring a CB on a midfielder or preferring to sign backup options in striker position rather than targeting top player for that position etc. Ed doesn't have much say in which targets we are seeking, at the end of the day. It's the responsibility of the manager. He also should know quite well we don't have an open cheque book for any upcoming manager based on what the previous ones had spent here (whom they never exceeded 150m in a summer, similar to what Ole had spent last summer as well).
Can already see the future complaints about Poch now should we hire him:
- Won nothing at Spurs with a strong squad
- Choked in the biggest game of his career, which they were lucky to reach
- Lost the last dressing room he managed
- Signings he made were nothing to be excited about
Not my views on him, but these will replace the recurring posts of 'out of his depth' 'clueless' 'nice guy that wont rock the boat' that populate this board currently, and they will all be from the same crowd that were so desperate to get him in and Ole out
Based on nothing more than inference and intuition, I’m not convinced that either managerial planning or club scouting form major parts of our recruitment process.
It looks to me like we sign players because their agents approach Ed and make him believe what a good idea it would be.
From my understanding the committee is made up of:
Head Coach, Assistant Manager, Technical Chief Scout (currently Mick Court), Head of Global Scouting (currently Marcel Bout) and Chief Scout (currently Jim Lawlor).
Each man has a vote, each man has a veto. That stops anyone having full control. Any of them can add a name to the list.
Yes Ole has a final say on who comes in (as he said), but the same is true for Jim or Mick.
Why on Earth do you think this strategy means sticking with a poor coach is the club’s best chance of success
Is the reason loads back Ole because they don’t understand that Mourinho lost his shit and his job because the club made these changes? Do they not realise the club hired Ole because the entire club had decided to go with this vision, it’s not Ole’s vision, it’s first and foremost the clubs and this time it will continue to the next manager and will be the most important criteria in picking a new manager.
We finally (no doubt thanks to Fergie & Gill on the advisory board) have gotten this bit in order.
I think Ole is key to the success of this approach because his role in it is so much more than just his coaching abilities.
You hear players like Rashford talk about the club feeling like United again. It's players like Rashford, McTominay, Greenwood, Brandon Williams that have been the success story this season and are the reasons for optimism.
Buying young English players selected by Marcel Bout and Mick Court isn't going to re-establish a Manchester United culture within the club.
I'm not saying it's a great strategy or it's bound to succeed, but the culture element is as important (if not moreso) as the recruitment side and Ole is critical to that.
The recruitment committee you mention actually seems like a poor structure. It seems overly beurocratic and lacks agility and it's little wonder signing more than 3 players in 3 months is a challenge. I'd much rather a figure head with overall responsibility of the playing staff (recruitment and retention) who works closely with the head coach and Nicky Butt on integration of players from the academy.
So we have the following:
Technical Chief Scout
Head of Global Scouting
Chief Scout
It’s hardly surprising we are where we are with such a Byzantine structure. We were better off when it was just SAF’s brother...
Has someone seen that latest Lingard quote? Absolute bonkers. I wondered how some posters are so deluded regarding Lingard, then I read what our manager says while being paid a fortune to run this football team, Christ we are in big trouble.
One person? How is that different to Mourinho or LvG then?
And what happens if Bayern Munich poach him?
So we have the following:
Technical Chief Scout
Head of Global Scouting
Chief Scout
It’s hardly surprising we are where we are with such a Byzantine structure. We were better off when it was just SAF’s brother...
You have no idea how a Worldwide scouting system for a billion dollar football club works in fairness or how many of these positions exists at all clubs (I’d imagine most).
So if you know so little, why comment? Do I try to pass criticism to the London Ballet?
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. United didn't want a striker but you claim they were in for Mandzukic. What position does he play?
As for Dybala, United were willing to pay £75m for him (or forego the £75m Inter paid for Lukaku) but they weren't interested in a number 10 and only wanted him because Juve offered him? Sure it's only £75m!
So it's Ole's fault they didn't add more quality in attack. Are you suggesting when the club went in for Mandzukic and Longstaff or accepted the deal for Dybala, they did that without Ole's say so?
Great lad, runs a lot
If I am to create a platform for success, following are the parameters needed:
This is all in theory right now.
Evaluating the situation right now, we have a (let’s say) 6/10 squad but a 3/10 manager. No matter how much time we give him, there is only going to so much of output. Adding in subjective factors like brand degradation, we need to realize that we’re in a crisis. There is no magic wand which can be twirled by a potential new manager which will make us win the Premier League any time soon. But our rebuilding needs to be in the hands of someone who we know is or can be capable. And results don’t lie. We have shown midtable form for a year and our proximity to the top 4 is more as a factor of other teams like Chelsea, Spurs and even Arsenal becoming worse than us growing as a club. Which is why the likes of Leicester and Wolves have closed the gap or even overtaken us. Leicester have shown the change a quality manager can bring. I’m unable to understand how fans can perceive us to be in a more unfixable position than what Leicester were when Rodgers was brought in, who were in the bottom half if I remember correctly. There is loyalty and then there is blatant ignorance.
Trusting Ole to be that manager is like trusting Lingard to become a 25 goal midfielder.
- Quality Squad
- Tactically Robust Manager
- Time: For the squad to showcase its quality and the manager to implement his ideas
This is all in theory right now.
Evaluating the situation right now, we have a (let’s say) 6/10 squad but a 3/10 manager. No matter how much time we give him, there is only going to so much of output. Adding in subjective factors like brand degradation, we need to realize that we’re in a crisis. There is no magic wand which can be twirled by a potential new manager which will make us win the Premier League any time soon. But our rebuilding needs to be in the hands of someone who we know is or can be capable. And results don’t lie. We have shown midtable form for a year and our proximity to the top 4 is more as a factor of other teams like Chelsea, Spurs and even Arsenal becoming worse than us growing as a club. Which is why the likes of Leicester and Wolves have closed the gap or even overtaken us. Leicester have shown the change a quality manager can bring. I’m unable to understand how fans can perceive us to be in a more unfixable position than what Leicester were when Rodgers was brought in, who were in the bottom half if I remember correctly. There is loyalty and then there is blatant ignorance.
Trusting Ole to be that manager is like trusting Lingard to become a 25 goal midfielder.
Completely different and the complete opposite of what you're arguing. Mourinho and LVG were the manager/first team coach.
I'm not arguing Ole should be that person. He should work with that person but ultimately, the roles of coaching the first team and recruitment/retention of the first team squad are two different roles.
But the club doesn't want to go that way. So, if the existing structure is what they're stuck with, Ole is the best chance of that being successful.
Sounds better already. We would be back to have elite club problems. Instead of these basic arguments like can’t coach.
A lot of our players have low footballing IQ or play like they do. Pereira Rashford Mcctominay AWB James Lingard shit even De Gea. It's why we only look dangerous on the most basic tactic that does not rely on intelligence which is counter attack. This doesn't mean they are bad players, they are just not intelligent on the pitch
But It's up to Ole to set up this side to play intelligently because most of them can't do it on their own since they just don't have the footballing IQ necessary (eg Rashford and Pereira constantly shooting when there are options to pass) . People will say that getting creative and better players will make us play better. I agree. But I believe what separates the best coaches from the rest is the ability to make average players and unintelligent players play intelligently and better than their ability suggests. It's why Ferguson is the greatest and why Klopp is rated more than Guardiola.
Like I said I wouldn't say our players are all average. But most of them have low footballing IQ. And what they need is a coach that is tactically sound to guide them to play intelligently
But It's up to Ole to set up this side to play intelligently because most of them can't do it on their own since they just don't have the footballing IQ necessary (eg Rashford and Pereira constantly shooting when there are options to pass) . People will say that getting creative and better players will make us play better. I agree. But I believe what separates the best coaches from the rest is the ability to make average players and unintelligent players play intelligently and better than their ability suggests. It's why Ferguson is the greatest and why Klopp is rated more than Guardiola.
Like I said I wouldn't say our players are all average. But most of them have low footballing IQ. And what they need is a coach that is tactically sound to guide them to play intelligently
Your argument is just completely illogical so I’ve absolutely no response.
God forbid he try to encourage a struggling player. Should have taken a page out of Jose's book and called him a pile of dung running around in a human skeleton.
So what the hell is the manager doing. For instance... Schneiderlin’s agent approaches Ed and says you can have my client. He tells LVG.. does he just say, never heard of him but yes than you Mr Woodward.
You can use that example with any player and manager over the last 6 years you will see how stupid it sounds.
I have been saying from the start that the only striker we were in was a cheap backup for short term like Mandzukic but were never in at any point interested in bringing a top striker to fill the position of Lukaku. Ole just wanted a backup option on the bench for Martial and Rashford and that's about it. Otherwise what were the top striker options that were going to take the main spot upfront we were interested in during the entire 3 months of the summer? Answer is simply none.
As for Dybala, all the links with him were when Juve wanted to hijack the Inter deal with Lukaku and wanted to sign him. They didn't want Dybala so decided to offer him to us in a swap deal. Of course we were willing to go on with it till the player rejected us, however, not at any point we approached Juve to sign the player. What's our problem in that, why should we blame the board for a player that another club offered to us, the player found himself forced in a deal that he didn't want and rejected us? What is the mistake the board did here exactly?
https://www.skysports.com/football/...nchester-united-as-part-of-romelu-lukaku-deal
https://www.espn.com/soccer/soccer-...ources-juve-to-offer-united-dybala-for-lukaku
Yes, it's ultimately Ole's fault because his planning for the market was to prioritize the defense over other positions. We decided to not spend 50m on Longstaff then splashed the cash on Maguire instead, and all our interest in any other midfielder died after Maguire's deal. We decided to not chase a top striker and were fine trying to get a backup option for the bench only as Mandzukic, or are you suggesting these two weren't the manager's decisions? It was his decision that defense was the most important priority of the summer and the position we should splash the majority of the budget on it and spend in it before thinking about spending in other positions, considering how he labeled Maguire his top target of the summer :
https://www.manutd.com/en/news/deta...ry-maguire-was-his-number-one-transfer-target
So he has to live or die with his own decisions I guess. As I said in the previous post we could have approached the summer and spent those 150m in different ways than we did, but we ultimately decided that defense is the biggest priority for us, far more important than a top midfielder or a top striker.
True. I haven’t a clue. Though it does seem odd that so many people have Chief or Head in their job titles.
This normally only happens in Sales, where loads of people are Sales Directors despite doing absolutely no directing; the titles are merely ceremonial and ego-massaging.
Who knows; maybe these three have clearly distinct roles. There does seem to be a consensus that our youth scouting and recruitment has improved at least.
Never ever compare gegenpressing to what United do. There's much more pressing by the midfield in Klopp and Pep's system. And the passing is light years faster. Liverpool extensively use their full backs to switch play, both as outlets etc...It's about as close in tempo and intent as a panenka is to a bicycle kick.
I don't agree with the strategy or the execution. United were way down last year in % of possession won in the final third. With the ball, you have to develop relationships on the training ground for combination play. The only two who have it on the level you need to be elite are Martial and Pogba. Liverpool's reserves looked 100 times more cohesive against Everton than United's starting XI.
I'm looking at the total picture, not a game against City with a depleted back 4. I'm not saying they don't actually train with a game plan. I'm saying the system is inadequate and many players are not improving or look worse. In the last 10 seasons, 31 points is about 8th at this stage in the season.
United are 9th in shots from inside the penalty area. 8th in passes completed within 20 yards of goal. (City and Liv are 1 and 2). Sorry, it's pathetic. And most importantly it's not even remotely on a trajectory to being competitive in the next few seasons.
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Doesn't Bout supposedly spend most of his time insulting the relatives of potential signings. How long has Lawlor been there and is he scouting and looking at players attributes for the modern game or still stuck in the past? Just asking.So we have the following:
Technical Chief Scout
Head of Global Scouting
Chief Scout
It’s hardly surprising we are where we are with such a Byzantine structure. We were better off when it was just SAF’s brother...
Except without good protection in midfield the defence will always struggle no matter who is in there.
Don’t ask me - I’ve already been taken to task for wondering why so many have Chief or Head in their title!
Pogba? And the full package of Raiola clients that came along with him?
I always thought Chief and Head were the same thing.
Dybala never rejected us. The player was willing to move but conditions of which neither Inter, Dybala or MUFC had any control made the deal impossible. Dybala was very public about not wanting to leave Juve, but understood that he was being forced out and serious talks aboutt he transfer were conduced over 2 days I believe it was.
Lukaku went to Ole and told him that he did not want to be int he club any longer, given his perceived role in the team, so they went out and looked at option for the player, that' how the Dybala stunt ultimately came to pass.
I'm sorry but your impression of the transfer market and the clubs business is just factually incorrect.
Look at your previous posts saying our squad isn't even top10 before season, suddenly it's "Give this squad to anyone and they do better than 5th"
It's Haaland and he didn't refuse to come to United, United refuse to sign someone just for quick fix and include buyout clause and 40% profit from sale, similar with Dybala. We don't know if Ole had been talking about future transfer after next or in 2 seasons, by using buyout clause in current Dortmund contract and when Haaland is actually ready for EPL.
We don't need superstars, not even Messi would be a fix to this side, because all our squad is no where near their prime and it will take at least 1-2 more seasons before more than half of our long-term players will actually become top level.
We need to have good English core, tough players who can play throughout season with more stability, no point in signing some superstar names that will be unsatisfied with not fighting for EPL title or will be here to collect paycheck and not give his 100% each game.
Feel free to quote me in 2 seasons time, but I'm pretty sure you'll have changed sides since then.
Ole was the one who came out and said that his transfer targets were not available. We can blame Woodward for many things but not for the football we play. He may have not agreed to pay a lot of money for players but he paid 80million for Maguire. So it is the manager's decision to select the players he wants. Leicester for Tielemans and Soyuncu for only 64 million. Now they play better than anyone at Manchester United. They still have 16 million from the sale of Maguire to us.
Wouldn't it have been better to get two players or someone of that calibre instead of spending a lump sum on Maguire?
Ole is making the same mistake Moyes made. That the name of Manchester United alone is not enough attraction. No it was the name of the club plus the name of the best manager that got the big name players to United.
Ask yourself? take the United fan hat off. Would you as a professional football player , play for Pep, Klopp or Ole Gunnar? The first two will get you trophies and and more name and more commercial deals while the third has no guarantee at all of getting you a trophy and play for a mid table club. Just like Liverpool was before Klopp took over. A club with a history only. They kept changing managers and big name managers till they got the right one who has won the Bundesliga and took Dortmund to the CL Finals.
Wouldn't it have been better to get two players or someone of that calibre instead of spending a lump sum on Maguire?
Ole is making the same mistake Moyes made. That the name of Manchester United alone is not enough attraction. No it was the name of the club plus the name of the best manager that got the big name players to United.
Ask yourself? take the United fan hat off. Would you as a professional football player , play for Pep, Klopp or Ole Gunnar? The first two will get you trophies and and more name and more commercial deals while the third has no guarantee at all of getting you a trophy and play for a mid table club. Just like Liverpool was before Klopp took over. A club with a history only. They kept changing managers and big name managers till they got the right one who has won the Bundesliga and took Dortmund to the CL Finals.
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