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Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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I get that, we just aren't good enough to finish them then. The xG against, what does that tell you though?
We cannot even keep a clean sheet at home to palace, are teams more clinical against Manutd than the rest?
So frustrating, I have watched Liverpool play 2/3 times this season. First 20 minutes V Norwich, Arsenal, Southampton they should all have been 1-0 or 2-0 and then the score ends up being 3-0 to Liverpool.
You can't use stats as a basis when it limits the comprehension between clear cut chances and half chances. This entire season we have had half chances, either where our players need a spectacular effort or individual piece of brilliance to amass the space to score.
The biggest issue Ole has is creativity, we struggle to break teams down. Mourinho's comments about low block defences seem like a prophecy to the assessment of our current issues. Jenas despite being a useless pundit did highlight this on MOTD that we are a team full of half chances. Ole has all the right intentions, but he needs transition his ideals to success by coaching those implementations. He's supposedly frustrated at Rashford for not running inward of the 6 yard box, but it's one thing telling Marcus to do so and another aspect coaching it on the training ground to resemble the feeling of a fixture accurately.
Including out post-Paris form from last season is a slimy thing to do. The team performances are miles better than they were last season, and for a journalist to suggest that we haven't made any progress since then is one of several reasons I hate them so much.
I agree, we need a manager who will improve the players and get us back to winning ways. How no one at the club can see this is beyond me!
Ole might have been the man to get us to the end of season but that was it. As a club, we need to be a little bit more ruthless.
This goes with players too, so many players have stole a living in this club.
The issues surrounding our inability to beat teams ON THE PITCH where we have a distinct advantage, on paper at least.
Yes. The board are not guilt free but that's a different argument. United should be competing much better against the mid-table teams and at the moment and for the last 15 PL matches we haven't been either.
If we were getting hammered by Liverpool, City, Tottenham etc every match then I can accept but I can't accept us struggling to even compete against much much weaker teams. You can argue that the board didn't back OGS with ebough reinforcements this year but it's clear to see that our tactics are crap at the moment.
Of course we haven't. Still enough for any team to pack their defense well against us and they'll be sure to get something out of the game. Nothing changed this season. It's more of the same. Some are just trying to convince themselves otherwise.
I've already said, we have created 9 big chances (chances which would ordinarily be taken, and DON'T include penalties) across the 4 games in the league this season. We've only taken 3 of them. Look at the chance map in the Palace and Southampton games, we had plenty of shots in the box across both games which indicates that we do seem to be getting past the low block but not doing enough once we get in those positions. That's not to say that it can't get better. Someone with more incision than Lingard, and a more consistent presence and influence on games than Mata in the 10 role would be most gratefully received and would go a long way towards getting us across this particular rubicon, but until Gomes gets his chance (or someone like Maddison is bought) we have to make do with what we have.
Look also at the crosses James provided on Saturday. There were at least three from my recollection which were just begging for a touch in the 6 yard box which never came.
We're doing more than enough to win these games but lacking the finishing touch. It's understandable that this would be the case considering how young the forward line is. It'll get better as the season progresses and the likes of Rashford, James, and Martial settle down in to their roles and the system.
Also, if you read the Crafton piece in the Athletic he's been doing exactly that which you said. He's been recreating match situations in training and getting those movements in the box coached in to Rashford. It'll take time. Sterling was even worse at this aspect of the game only two years ago and he wasn't much older than Rashford is now.
Only, Ole isn’t playing. And frankly I think he is to old to do anything about it. But seriously. The team I think average 70ish possession, mostly in the 2/3 and 3/3. Getting loads of shots, although not that many on target yet.
Do people actually think there would br a higher converting rate if change in formation? Different personnel perhaps? It’s all small margins, so have some patience with the players.
Then someone should probably tell you that you are making a lot of idiotic points in this thread.
xG against is the reverse of xG for. It basically tells you how good the defence is at stopping high probability chances. In this regard, we are doing very well but individual errors (DDG, Lindelof x2) and a worldie from Neves have prevented us from getting the clean sheets in games that we should have.
If these errors continue then we can definitely point to it being a quality issue as opposed to a systemic one and the answer would be to replace the players who are causing these issues. It's still early days though, so we can only wait and see what the future brings.
I think you'll find they have. Repeatedly.
Why not add to the debate instead of the passive aggressive posting like an incel?
And quelle surprise, another newbie(!)
It can be a coaching thing too. We concede way too many chances from corners.
They must have been working on set pieces in training, we are one of the worst teams when it comes to attacking or defending them.
I agree you cannot do anything with Lindelof or DDG making mistakes, but you can surely improve the strikers finishing.
He's been doing that though. Read the Crafton piece in the Athletic. It'll take time to change a player's game, especially one that is as instinctive as Rashford is.
Defending set pieces haven't been the issue. We defended the first ball perfectly fine on Saturday but they picked the ball up again and AWB was too slow in stopping the cross coming in. Palace's goals were two breakaways which had nothing to do with set pieces either, and we defended the Wolves set piece fine, with Neves scoring a worldie which no keeper would have saved.
Attacking wise, we don't have players who are particularly strong in the air, with the exception of Maguire, making it easy for the opposition to deal with. It's hardly terminal, but something that we should improve on in time.
Why people saying that we need creative players to break down teams? Ffs if you aren't creative you won't be named as a football players. It is Ole's fault why the team does not know to break down the opponent.
It is not rocket science for the coaches. I also do wonder if there are good analysts at United? surely if we all can see then they should be able to see that there are crosses being made and no one is getting at the end of it?
Surely these are all grown up men with lots of years experience in football and they of all people should know that it is more easy to defend a corner when it is played to the far post than a flick at a near post? So why don't they practice till they get it right? At this level all players should be able to put in a corner somewhere in the middle of the box? If not get them to practice till they get it right. No point in trying to make them do the Cruijff turn if they can't even get a throw in right.
I think they are a bunch of clowns, the whole coaching staff taking the piss out of us and also the club.
You can improve DDG's mistakes by telling him not to dive at the near post shots but to keep them out with his feet. 9 times out of 10 in the past he would have used his feet to keep it out. His mistake was to dive for it and he got beaten by the pace. It is also a basic mistake.
As for the Lindelof mistake it is a defence mistake. They all teach you to be diagonal when defending and for the life of me I do not understand what Maguire was doing so far away from Lindelof and also letting Ayew free while Lindelof went for the header with Schlupp.
Surely these are all grown up men with lots of years experience in football and they of all people should know that it is more easy to defend a corner when it is played to the far post than a flick at a near post? So why don't they practice till they get it right? At this level all players should be able to put in a corner somewhere in the middle of the box? If not get them to practice till they get it right. No point in trying to make them do the Cruijff turn if they can't even get a throw in right.
I think they are a bunch of clowns, the whole coaching staff taking the piss out of us and also the club.
You can improve DDG's mistakes by telling him not to dive at the near post shots but to keep them out with his feet. 9 times out of 10 in the past he would have used his feet to keep it out. His mistake was to dive for it and he got beaten by the pace. It is also a basic mistake.
As for the Lindelof mistake it is a defence mistake. They all teach you to be diagonal when defending and for the life of me I do not understand what Maguire was doing so far away from Lindelof and also letting Ayew free while Lindelof went for the header with Schlupp.
You have too much patience for this thread if anything... I doubt anything productive will come from debating with the modern day 'internet fans'.
I'd like to think if the fine margins had gone our way and a couple of penalties had hit the back of the net, this place would be fairly upbeat now. I think some people don't even have a glass to be half empty though, never mind half full.
Actually the goal came from the ball being won by Southampton player which DDG made a good save.
Neves set piece was not defended fine, not having someone at the edge of the box is criminal.
Agreed. All of it.
I understand the logic behind your reasons but largely I think your disregarding elements of play which influence a teams potency in front of goal. If we have had 9 clear cut chances over 4 games, that's averaging around 2 chances per game that are worth mentioning. That additionally highlights the stem of the issue of why we are a team unable to put 3 / 4 past opponents. We are relying too much on individual players being extremely clinical as opposed to creating a higher ratio of chances which betters the percentages of goals being scored. City and Liverpool have clinical players but it's the foundation that Pep and Jürgen give them to score goals that counts. It's for this very reason that we could have Mane / Salah playing for us and they would score less than half the goals they do for their clubs.
I wouldn't be too bewildered by Sterling's development especially in contribution to Guardiola's team. Much of Raheem's success comes in the way that Pep has adopted his system to cater movement for his wide players. Sterling is still a fairly wasteful player, stats are decieving because they will indicate Sterling as a clinical forward but if you compare him to Kane or Aubameyang for example when it comes to instincts / temperament to finish the latter two are clearly far more polished.
The balance of play has a massive contribution to our chances created additionally, if we have averaged 65% possession in all 4 games this season but have only created 9 clear chances in 360 mins that is a coaching issue. For a team that is as fringe as ours upfront Solskjaer needs to average 9 clear chances per game to give the players the grounds to win games. We cannot have the odd chance here and there then blast the likes of Rashford, Martial and co for missing. If Marcus / Anthony score all the half chances we create over a full season, they will have conversion percentages in the mid 70's which is a ridiculous ask.
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I haven't seen any strategy or coaching from Ole and his coaching staff. Identifying weak areas and Buying good players in those position shouldn't be the benchmark of a manager, this is min requirement. A good manager's true quality is determined by how well he can coach players and get the better out of them. This is not just Ole but our previous mangers have been guilty as well. But ole seem's to be tactically not so sound as well which is a disaster!
If you look at top 4 teams in PL, yes they have spent a lot but you can see a clear style of playing. You can also see players have developed well and continue to develop in an upward trajectory. We don't seem to have one single player who you can say that is true of!
Giving players the freedom ( read as unshackling the chains) is well and good if those players are smart enough to make decisions on their own, which apart from 1-2 players in our team none of them do. If a Manager is only picking 11 players + subs in a squad then we don't need a manger do we?
If you look at top 4 teams in PL, yes they have spent a lot but you can see a clear style of playing. You can also see players have developed well and continue to develop in an upward trajectory. We don't seem to have one single player who you can say that is true of!
Giving players the freedom ( read as unshackling the chains) is well and good if those players are smart enough to make decisions on their own, which apart from 1-2 players in our team none of them do. If a Manager is only picking 11 players + subs in a squad then we don't need a manger do we?
One thing I will say about Ole is he needs to be a lot more thorough than he's being in order to make it as a top manager nowadays.
Some of the things I'm seeing on the pitch sometimes makes me question whether he does have as much control over the players as I'd like to believe.
Things like Rashford's freekicks, Rashford's shooting, our set pieces in general, Pogba's dallying on the ball, our loose touches, our multiple touches per pass, no proper overlap of fullbacks, etc. all need to be worked out soon. Those are the worrying signs for me.
Some of the things I'm seeing on the pitch sometimes makes me question whether he does have as much control over the players as I'd like to believe.
Things like Rashford's freekicks, Rashford's shooting, our set pieces in general, Pogba's dallying on the ball, our loose touches, our multiple touches per pass, no proper overlap of fullbacks, etc. all need to be worked out soon. Those are the worrying signs for me.
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I have a question. During the great run from December to February, we were quite well rewarded in comparison with the Expected goals stats, and this was discussed quite a bit, and some reasoned that we should expect a dip in the results then based on EG. Now we have ‘won’ four straight games comfortably on Expected goals stats. Whereas for instance Liverpool lost the EG away to Southampton but won the endlessly more useful Actual Goals stat, we won the EG but drew on goals. My question is: What does this mean?
Both LVG and Mourinho had a clear strategy and philosophy, and look how that turned out. Our players ended up looking scared to make mistakes and it was painful to watch. Ole's style is more hands off which reminds me of the Fergie days, where he did not like to over coach his players and later on left most of the tactical side to his assistants like Queiroz. Specific tactics and strategy are for certain opponents, such as a weakness they can exploit, but not for every single match.
True. After 4 games, over here you d think end of the world is around the corner.
To agree with a poster who criticizes modern day “internet fans” when you at the same time have a grand total of
99000 + messages on your account made me smile.
I support the transition but I’m 100% sure that Solksjaer is a much better DoF then a manager. Move Pogba further up ASAP and next summer do the same with Ole Gunnar. Win and win situation.
LVG and Jose had strategies but they didn't coach anyone! name 2 players since SAF to have been 'coached' by a manager into doing well?
I did say Ole and his coaching staff. What tactics did you see in the first 4 games? Yes Queiroz was a good assistant, i am afraid Phelan is not and Carrick and McKenna might be good but they are inexperienced at this level. Don't get me wrong i want ole to succeed but i don't think he will. The whole 'getting the club' and 'playing the united way' doesn't seem to be working.
Personally don’t see what else he could do, he’s not an elite manager like Klopp or Pep or even same standard as managers at teams like Leicester and Everton. The squad isn’t fit for purpose and is closer to those teams just mentioned than the top sides. He can make a few tweaks or throw in youngsters that’s about it.
We could easily have won all 4 games so far or come away with even less points, that’s kind of team we are. Will be lots of fine margins this season and can see us finishing anywhere from 5th-8th.
Until there is a proper plan and structure in place at the club (which still no signs of), whoever the manager is almost irrelevant now.
We could easily have won all 4 games so far or come away with even less points, that’s kind of team we are. Will be lots of fine margins this season and can see us finishing anywhere from 5th-8th.
Until there is a proper plan and structure in place at the club (which still no signs of), whoever the manager is almost irrelevant now.
Thanks guys. I think I've said what I needed to say. These arguments have taken up the best part of my working day! So I think now is the time to finish, but not before elaborating on where I have an issue with these internet fans.
I don't have an issue with anyone thinking that Ole might not be the right man for the job, but at least wait until he's done something that deserves criticism. The disrespect of someone who gave me the most enjoyable moment of my united supporting life, is astounding. So much so, that I wonder how many of them were even alive at that point in time.
As far as I can see, he's done the best anyone could have realistically hoped for (in terms of performances) with the squad we have. Like you say, the fine margins have prevented us from getting more points than we should have done and I feel that we have much more room to grow with the clear weaknesses in the squad waiting to be rectified, either with the addition of homegrown prospects or January incomings. For instance, I think Gomes and Greenwood have the attributes to transform the way we play in a couple of those key positions that we're lacking in. That's not to say he hasn't made mistakes, but the mistakes he's making are so relatively minor (playing Lingard ahead of an unproven kid in Gomes, or substitutions - which, as it turns out, are no later than other managers'). His tactical progression has been clear to see, with the Wolves game being just one example, and he's managed the difficult situation with Pogba fantastically well to keep him this season.
Now, under normal circumstances and with the squad we have, we'd be cut far adrift of the top 4 race but the other teams in and around us are just as inconsistent and liable to dropping points that we will still be in the race. Consider this: last season, Arsenal went on a long unbeaten run at the start, Liverpool, City, and Chelsea were on a 7-odd game winning run which lasted til October, and Spurs also had a great start to the season. What ended up happening was one of the most farcical and comical endings to a season from the supposed top clubs I've ever seen. So much so, that we were still in with a shout of getting top 4 two games from the end of the season.
The way some people are going, you'd think that it was a carbon copy of last season's start and that we have no chance. The man has the club's best interests at heart in a way that no manager since Fergie has had. We still might not have a chance, but the least we could do is support him.
I go home and away to watch the team, and the disconnect between the people on fora like this one, and the matchgoing guys is stark to say the least. It seems some people are more concerned with being right in an internet forum argument than actually supporting the club, the team, and the manager. Which is a little sad, if I'm being honest.
I saw both Newcastle and Palace play and no way are Newcastle worse than Palace. Palace were absolutely woeful. As for creativity and chance creation, what saves did the Soton keeper have to make which were top notch, apart from that attempt from Greenwood. We didn't really create clear chances even with a man advantage.
We'll have a better idea after the next 3 games which are difficult on paper. Can we outplay Leicester, Wham and Arsenal?
Some just want to remain miserable for whatever reason.
Most of them can't see the fine margins (or refuse to see them because it wouldn't suit their agenda). Their opinions are based purely on the final score.
In short, no, we probably can't. I think we'll be lucky to come away with 1-3 pts at West Ham, a point at home to Arsenal. Leicester will probably beat us.
It's not clear who is short-sighted now. The pessimists expect a bad season, say 6th-8th, the optimists expect 3rd/4th or say 5th with good performances involving youngsters. What do you expect personally?
Sorry, just wanted to confirm; are we talking about Crystal Palace who are currently 4th, and Newcastle who are currently 14th? Palace, who had a draw on the opening day v Everton, an admittedly bad loss to Sheffield Utd, beaten us and now beaten Villa? As opposed to Newcastle, who got beaten by Arsenal, battered by newly promoted Norwich (whose defence is like a sieve), and were lucky to draw against Watford who have been without doubt, THE worst team in the league thus far?
There were enough shots on target in the Southampton game - 8 in fact, and Gunn made a few good saves at close range from chances that Rashford in particular should have done a lot better with. We were also a whisker away from winning with Young's shot beating Gunn and the post - which doesn't really count, but it's a moment I remember. We also had plenty of chances to hit them on the break, especially when Lingard came on, but messed it up with the final pass (Greenwood being twice wide open, and Lingard electing to shoot once and having the shot blocked, and cocking up the pass the other time)
I wouldn't predict outcomes but I'd be surprised if we looked like the clearly better team in those games. Maybe we are too pessimistic though.
Imo from those 3 games, the highest chance of us winning is vs Arsenal. West ham and Leicester look more solid imo
Why? Believe it or not, my support for this club predates my membership of redcafe.
Blame Ole all you want, he was not backed sufficiently during the summer. 2 defenders and a championship winger (i like James but we needed experience) is just not good enough. A net spend of 70ish million from a club that has the top 3 net revenue in the world. Why did we not sign a midfielder to take the burden off Pogba? Why did we not replace Lukaku or find a natural right winger? The board are bleeding the club dry, they have turned one of the biggest clubs in the world to a big sham. What's more, the new generation of fans will choose other clubs to support so as long as this continues, what is our future recruitment model?
I actually think we have done better than the end of last season. We look more sturdy, get into the oppositions half much more but we lack that clincial finish. I do not seeing it getting better overnight but Ole has cleared out the bugs who rotted the wood, there are a few more turmites and then the glue will start to set. We should of been finishing 4th this year but I do not think we will. That is down to the board, not Ed ot Ole. We should of spent another 130million net refreshing. Pep did it wil City, Klopp did it with Liverpool, we think it takes 3 years is just how we are run, no knowledge,no strategy, just money suckers.
I actually think we have done better than the end of last season. We look more sturdy, get into the oppositions half much more but we lack that clincial finish. I do not seeing it getting better overnight but Ole has cleared out the bugs who rotted the wood, there are a few more turmites and then the glue will start to set. We should of been finishing 4th this year but I do not think we will. That is down to the board, not Ed ot Ole. We should of spent another 130million net refreshing. Pep did it wil City, Klopp did it with Liverpool, we think it takes 3 years is just how we are run, no knowledge,no strategy, just money suckers.
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