You're right. The management at this club is a shambles, not the manager's fault alone by any means. That being said, I don't think Ole is, nor ever will be a manager in the elite. He won't ever be able to get us competing with the Pep's and the ilk imo.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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You're right. The management at this club is a shambles, not the manager's fault alone by any means. That being said, I don't think Ole is, nor ever will be a manager in the elite. He won't ever be able to get us competing with the Pep's and the ilk imo.
Seriously? As the great Hitchens once said, "The best way to answer some points is just to underline them".
No, for the last time, YOU ARE defending Ole.
One needs an underlying framework to actually understand what people are trying to tell you.
1. Suitability
The onus is in the applicant to make a case NOT on those who are asking for a case to be made to justify their request. That is pretty standard fare in industry leading corporations. You acknowledged as much when talking about Moyes' appointment but take umbrage when the same is asked of Ole.
2. Risk and Probability
You fail to understand the concepts of probability and likelihood. Whether something worked out in an individual instance or not has no bearing on the probability distribution at the moment when the initial choice was made. You keep pointing to the examples of Klopp and Pep as justification for any such similar appointment and that unfortunately is invalid.
3. Consistency
You contradict yourself and reprimand posters for imagined contraventions which you yourself have committed. You say avoid conjecture yet that is what you routinely do. For example.
4. Invective
"Confused poster"
"Stubborn poster"
"Moralistic poster"
"Nationalistic/Myopic posters"
"Stupid poster"
At some point people just look at the jumbled mess and check-out.
We haven't signed a single world class manager, or a manager that's on top of his game. Mourinho was already seen as a man on the decline when we announced him, in fact the consensus was that both Jose and United were sleeping giants that needed each other to wake back up.
Poch should have been snapped up, but as usual, our board is utterly inept in making the right decision at the right time. Klopp could have also been here had we acted more quickly.
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This is absolutely true. LVG was very much in decline too - in fact it felt like we were wheeling him out of semi-retirement for one last crack at the big-time.
Considering United knew for a long time that we would imminently need to replace such a legendary and long-serving manager, and considering the warning signs were all there...within our own fecking history (I mean, you just need to look at what happened after Sir Matt retired to see that the likes of Moyes and OGS were/are extremely unlikely to work), our managerial appointments have been really poor.
The thing that really concerns me this season (if we do sell Lukaku) is where the feck will the goals come from?
Pogba scored 16, Lukaku 15, Rashford 13, Martial 12, Mata 6 and Lingard 5. Everyone else either on 3 or less.
Pogba - unhappy wants to leave
Lukaku - unhappy wants to leave
Obviously we'll sign players to replace Lukaku (perhaps budget players given our current trend). But are we expecting them to come in and have an immediate effect? If not then we're left with Rashford and Martial leading the line for us. I don't think Pogba will leave this Summer so he'll continue to be penalty taker and chip in. But the rest of the squad simply don't score enough and Rashford/Martial aren't 20 goal a season players. This will be the reason why we're held back next year. Doesn't matter if we improve defensively if we can't score goals.
Pogba scored 16, Lukaku 15, Rashford 13, Martial 12, Mata 6 and Lingard 5. Everyone else either on 3 or less.
Pogba - unhappy wants to leave
Lukaku - unhappy wants to leave
Obviously we'll sign players to replace Lukaku (perhaps budget players given our current trend). But are we expecting them to come in and have an immediate effect? If not then we're left with Rashford and Martial leading the line for us. I don't think Pogba will leave this Summer so he'll continue to be penalty taker and chip in. But the rest of the squad simply don't score enough and Rashford/Martial aren't 20 goal a season players. This will be the reason why we're held back next year. Doesn't matter if we improve defensively if we can't score goals.
I don't think Martial has ever been given a proper crack at leading the line for us, when he was originally brought in as a striker, and is probably the best one on one finisher at the club. So in that regard, I'm happy we have another option in James out on the left and Martial getting more opportunities up top if Lukaku goes. Or at least is used in rotation with whoever we bring in. Of course we have Rashford knocking on that door also.
In all his full seasons, Lukaku has averaged 16 league goals. And that’s including Everton.
Over the past 2 seasons, he has scored 1 goal in 21 games against the top 6.
Last season, he scored 0 goals against the top 10. And that’s including domestic cups.
Over the past 2 seasons, he has scored 1 goal in 21 games against the top 6.
Last season, he scored 0 goals against the top 10. And that’s including domestic cups.
I’m not sure why you are making this personal. It’s all about viewpoints and knowledge about concrete issues. Since you have spent the effort of going through my posts, I’ll try to adress your points one by one.
1) What you felt sufficient to underline, was in response to your post arranging a sarcastic fantasy as means of an answer in stead of answering plainly. You had criticized me for criticizing those who criticize the appointment of Solskjær based on the lack of information available to us. My attempted point regarding your role play is that it misses the point. Woodward is the one who should be able to defend the appointment - he made it, based on a lot of things we don’t know, but hopefully talking to people in or around the club who worked with Solskjær or saw him closely. There are many of them, and they’re not hard to find, and you and I don’t really know much of what they would have said about Solskjær’s suitability for the role. Why should I make a case for Solskjær’s appointment? He’s already appointed, and I’m not trying to convince you to appoint him. I’m just as a fan trying to make sense of what meager accessible knowledge there is about it after the fact. I’m not saying it’s going to work or not, but I feel free to criticize unreasonable statements made by others to the effect that he will or won’t, for example in:
2. In the case that someone writes that the appointments of Guardiola or Zidane is evidence Solskjær will succeed, I would say ‘no, it isn’t’. There are many examples of managers/coaches hired that way who succeeded, there are even more examples of those who didn’t.
However, I haven’t noticed too many posters in this discussion claiming this. In the case someone writes that ‘appointing someone without a long CV of trophies or other impressive managerial feats in the CL/Top 5 leagues, is bound to be very bad idea’, I will say ‘no, it isn’t bound to be that’. There are several examples of such appointments with great success, and Guardiola/Zidane are among the most clearcut evidence of that.
3. When you write that I fail to understand the concepts of probability and likelihood, I do think it borders on what you accuse me of (both regarding invective and self-contradiction). If ‘conjecture’ means ‘drawing conclusions based on insufficient evidence’, I don’t think your two examples are the worst, but I’ll admit to it: I try to reduce my own conjecture, but I often fall short. If I can, though, I’ll try to lean towards getting facts and reducing straight up guesswork. If a Frankfurt poster tells me there is a deeper story about Jovic’s goal rate that I should know about, I tend to listen up and acknowledge that, or at least I hopefully try. Consistency is not a goal for me, though, it would make it hard for me to change my mind.
4. I’ll lay myself flat on this one. Sometimes I do get irritated, frustrated or even angry in a discussion, and use harsher or sharper formulations or a tone that I feel shameful or guilty about afterwards. I appologise for that to the ones who have been recipients of that. I did get irritated with you for dismissing my knowlege about Norwegian football so out of hand, for instance, and it probably showed in my writing. Apologies fot that.
I do want to point out the difference between between ‘abuse’ or labeling people on one hand, and cricizing actions (perhaps in a rude tone) on the other. You’re quoted examples were I think almost all criticizing something someone said, and it is you who generalize them into labels of ‘stupid or moralistic people or posters’. But it is a grey line, not black and white, I’ll admit. Where on that line do you put ‘you fail to understand probability and likelihood’ yourself?
To summarize: I accept some of what you say about my posting in general, I still don’t get the impression you have understood my most recent specific points in this thread, I think probably if you scrutized some of your own posts here you could find signs of some bad form, arrogance or contradiction yourself, and lastly, to return to the topic of this thread:
I really don’t know if Solskjær will turn out to be a good, medium or bad appointment, but I do think he should be assessed on what he actually produces here, and in relation to what he is tasked with. I think it his a rebuild of both club culture and team/squad he should be tasked with, and in that case, it will take at least a couple of seasons before we as fans really unequivocally can see if things are moving in the right direction or not.
I think it’s fair to disagree with this, though I think it’s dragging the forum down disagreeing with it ten times a day, every day, for months on end, for those who chose to do that. I am not saying you are doing that.
Its funny how some are hell bent of wanting Ole to fail. Jeez give the man a chance at least.
I guarantee that no-one that wastes half their life posting on a United forum wants Ole to fail. I think there is just a sense of disbelief cos that is most likely what is going to happen.
Think what you like about Jose, but class is permanent and he is a world class manager.
He was, not when we signed him.
Not world class. Finished.
He was word class though. Lots of talk.
Plenty of managers were world class at some point before their career went down the shitter, it’s nothing new really.
Not only he was world class at some point, he was the best manager around for a couple of years so he definitely deserves respect in that regard, but he’s not a top manager anymore, facts are facts.
That was the point though - since SAF retired we haven't actually appointed a World Class manager at the top of his game. Why not?
If Ole is going to survive next season he needs players who can score goals. Roughly 75 goals in 38 games to finish in top 4, close to 2 goals/game in average. Last season our best goal scorer in the PL was Pogba (13), followed by Rash and Martial (10) and then Lingard (4). That’s a total of 37 goals. Take away Lukaku(12) and Mata (3) and we can all see our weakest area. Last season we scored a total of 65 goals and conceded 54 in the PL. That’s chocking numbers for a top team.
If we sell or loan out Lukaku we need a new forward who can contribute with at least 15-20 goals. Rashford and Martial needs to step up and reach at least 15 goals each, Pogba needs to continue with his contribution. In a best case scenario thats 50-55 goals, then we need other players to contribute with 20-25 goals.
Ole Gunnar needs to be spot on in our transfers. We can’t just counter attack, we must dominate games both home and away against bottom half teams. We must also concede less then 35-40 goals in 38 games. That’s a maximum of 1 goal/game in average. We must improve all over the pitch.
At least two defenders. AWB and a CB. Probably two quality midfielders and at least one more forward if we sell Lukaku. Still I’m not sure that’s enough. Let’s just agree that Ole has a huge challenge in front of him.
If we sell or loan out Lukaku we need a new forward who can contribute with at least 15-20 goals. Rashford and Martial needs to step up and reach at least 15 goals each, Pogba needs to continue with his contribution. In a best case scenario thats 50-55 goals, then we need other players to contribute with 20-25 goals.
Ole Gunnar needs to be spot on in our transfers. We can’t just counter attack, we must dominate games both home and away against bottom half teams. We must also concede less then 35-40 goals in 38 games. That’s a maximum of 1 goal/game in average. We must improve all over the pitch.
At least two defenders. AWB and a CB. Probably two quality midfielders and at least one more forward if we sell Lukaku. Still I’m not sure that’s enough. Let’s just agree that Ole has a huge challenge in front of him.
Good points raised here.
Thats the feeling I get as well - I don't know if Ole will succeed or fail, but I am 100% certain that if he fails - he will have left the club in a much better position than when he arrived. A lot of the youngsters will have been given a lot of gametime, and we will have signed the right kind of players. So even if he fails - he will make the task a lot easier for the next guy - unlike Mourinho who left the club in total chaos.
It's funny how you are hell bent on wanting posters on here to fail (as that is what criticism must imply
). Jeez give them a chance at least.Saw a rumour posted today in Norwegian news that Aubameyang is allegedly positive to a Old Trafford move. Top scorer in EPL last season with Mané and Sala with 22 goals.
Last seasons Top scorer for Manchester United: Romelu Lukaku - 12 goals.
Last seasons Top scorer for Manchester United: Romelu Lukaku - 12 goals.
By posting bs like this you are just proving my point so carry on with your childish posts.It's funny how you are hell bent on wanting posters on here to fail (as that is what criticism must imply
It's funny how you are hell bent on wanting posters on here to fail (as that is what criticism must imply
If they are criticizing the club for appointing Ole the manager you and everyone in this thread should hope they fail. Miserably.
Let me spell it out for you: Criticizing Ole is not, in and of itself, "wanting him to fail".
Are you Norwegian by any chance?
Hey we get it you don't rate Ole but you don't need to go and saying the bs again and again. It comes across as "you want him to fail so that you are proven correct". No one gives a crap about that. You don't need to keep on hounding posters who have different opinions to you. Funny fact is in last 20 pages in this thread I have not seen one person say Ole will be a sure shot success or say he is a top call manager , all people like me are saying is considering he has been given the job and he has not even had a pre season yet why not be a little patient. Again if you think he is shit, that is fine, it is your opinion but do not say the same crap again and again and try to argue with people just because they want some patience to be shown.
Because there aren’t that many around, and they were either unavailable, or already agreed to join other clubs.
We fecked it all up with no “post SAF” planning in place, really amateur stuff.
16 is acceptable for a team which of our calibre (remember we are not a team who can compete for the league), but 0 goals against teams in the top 10 is insanely bad. That tells me that the does not possess the skills necessary to score goals against better quality defenders.
Mourinho, all things considered, is the worst manager the club has ever had. No manager has ripped the soul from the club and created such a chasm between the supporters. To the tune of hundreds of million of pounds, of course.
The soul was ripped from the club a long time before Mourinho came along.
Commercially, yes. As is with all modern clubs. But not at ground level. Mourinho’s performance was abject and it will take us a good while to recover from his tenure.
I'd love him here. I think everyone underestimates the impact of a top striker. We already have quite a few young forwards, and we need a proven goalscorer to take on the responsibility of taking Utd back to the top.
Well, objectively - certainly up until last season - his performance was not abject. Indeed it was superior to the previous 2 managers. So I'm not too sure what you're getting at? If you're referring to stuff like him calling out players in public - that sort of stuff I'd argue that it did nothing to the 'soul of the club' and really only affected his own reputation.
It was so poorly planned. Right in between any good managers looking to move. I don't believe that they didn't want to come to United because of the pressure after Fergie.
Well let's see how long it takes Ole to get us to 2nd place with 81 points then.
And let's see if Ole can win us the Europa League next season.
Would you like to venture a guess or are you just completely blinkered against Jose.
You see. The person who ripped the soul out of this club is non other than Ed Woodward.
I'm hoping that the end of season rubbish we watched was a consequence of fatigue.
Mourinho's style of football has never involved the high energy we showed in the run of 17 games or whatever after Ole took over, hopefully we can sustain that for longer after a full pre-season with Ole... unless it was just new manager syndrome, I'm staying optimistic.
I fully expect a couple of years of rebuilding but as long as we see improvement over those 2 years, in my eyes Ole will have done a good job and can be judged on the 3rd year.
Mourinho's style of football has never involved the high energy we showed in the run of 17 games or whatever after Ole took over, hopefully we can sustain that for longer after a full pre-season with Ole... unless it was just new manager syndrome, I'm staying optimistic.
I fully expect a couple of years of rebuilding but as long as we see improvement over those 2 years, in my eyes Ole will have done a good job and can be judged on the 3rd year.
Like who? Who should we have got right now that was available to us?
We are talking about all 3 managerial appointments since Fergie. During that period City have appointed Guardiola and Liverpool have appointed Klopp.
You seem keen to focus on the most recent appointment - obviously you're of the opinion that there is nobody more qualified and better suited to the job than OGS - you must be feeling really confident about the new season!
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