Jurgen Klopp's first game as Liverpool boss was just under 18 months after Gerrard's slip against Chelsea.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Jurgen Klopp's first game as Liverpool boss was just under 18 months after Gerrard's slip against Chelsea.
As toxic as Jose was he's the only manager since SAF left that's hit 80+ points in the league. If we're to win a title in the next season or two Ole will have to turn us into a machine because Pep and Kloop when their teams are really flying can amass 80-90 points easily. Being a nice guy is all well and good but the reality is that he's up against two of the best managers in the game along with Tuchel. This season is make or break to see if he can lock horns with them or if we need to move onto someone who can because the squad is more than good enough now.
He's up against recent champion Klopp, Tuchel with oil and gas money, and arguably the best current coach in the world, Pep with Oil-state backing.
But, apparently, if he fails to prevail this year, he should be sacked.
What's your suggestion? Keep coming 2-4 or bringing in a manager who can outwit Pep and Klopp?
He shouldn't be sacked if he fails, however surely he should be be at least locking horns with them in terms of points tally with this squad? If we're miles off that's surely a sign that he's not up to delivering a title unless Klopp, Pep and Tuchel all collectively bugger off and are replaced with managers several levels below them. United shouldn't have to wait or hope for that we should have a manager that's up to the challenge regardless of his competition.
What annoy me the most is the most ruthless critics here said Ole will never win anything.
They don't know that, nobody knows that.
This year is the year when we can know that, because with that squad he should be winning something, no excuses.
They don't know that, nobody knows that.
This year is the year when we can know that, because with that squad he should be winning something, no excuses.
Not that Ole seems to be under any pressure at all at the moment, but should this season fall apart and we need to replace him we are going to have a very difficult decision to make. There really isn't an outstanding & attractive candidate in my view. Conte looks to be the best option in terms of competing with the rest but the thought of him here leaves me very uneasy. Nagelsmann is tied up for the foreseeable future and Pochettino has already been ignored when available. Zidane......maybe. Potter seems destined for bigger things but its a huge leap to make for him.
Point being, not one of those candidates is without risk and I think our fans should be very careful about demanding change as quickly as they are while this team is still on an upward trajectory. We don't HAVE to win titles this season to demonstrate progress, but this whole situation will be a lot smoother if we do.
There are a lot of variables that can impact the course of any team's season.
Instead of setting criteria that may end up looking unreasonable (injuries, suspensions, legal cases etc. and Covid isn't over yet), just watch how it plays out. Try to enjoy it.
If the last 7 years has taught us anything, it is, this could be as good as it gets for us, for a long while.
Conversely, it may be the start of a new dynasty.
Do you want to look back in decades to come and think, "I wish I had just enjoyed it while it was so good"?
Instead of setting criteria that may end up looking unreasonable (injuries, suspensions, legal cases etc. and Covid isn't over yet), just watch how it plays out. Try to enjoy it.
If the last 7 years has taught us anything, it is, this could be as good as it gets for us, for a long while.
Conversely, it may be the start of a new dynasty.
Do you want to look back in decades to come and think, "I wish I had just enjoyed it while it was so good"?
+1 but I think the nuance here will be lost on the Caf
Huge fan of what Potter does but I think it might be too big a step up right now. Last season was the time to get on the managerial merry-go-round.
With Ronaldo and Varane here, Zidane would be a no brainer especially if we want to keep Pogba.
+1 but I think the nuance here will be lost on the Caf
Huge fan of what Potter does but I think it might be too big a step up right now. Last season was the time to get on the managerial merry-go-round.
I'm really surprised that Spurs didn't go for Potter. He was the first person I thought of when they sacked Jose, and there were stories so maybe something happened, but to go for Nuno over him was for me another bad managerial decision by Levy
I am asking the following question(s) out of genuine curiosity, not with any snark or anything like that.
Since your discussion was around "systems" and you describe Liverpool/Kloop's system in the bolded bit above, in your opinion how would you similarly and briefly describe
- Pep's system
- Fergie's system say around 2008.
- Tuchel's system
- Ole's system (assuming you believe Ole has one)
Thanks in advance.
Replacing Ole would be tricky, so I think we would need to be clear about who we would want before we start thinking about replacing him. Ole's biggest weakness is, in my view, his coaching of the first team, where I think he's comfortably the weakest among the managers of the big 4 teams. However, his ability to create a positive football culture has been second only to Klopp, and in terms of squad building, I think he's been better than anyone in the last few years. We've gone from a bit of a rabble when he arrived, to a squad that is as good as anything in the league. If you switched him for, say, Conte, you would get a manager who was much better at coaching a team. On the other hand, you'd have a manager who was less concerned with club values and who buys for the short term. So maybe an improvement in one area, but overall not necessarily an improvement overall. I think you can look across a lot of managers and see the same issue - some are good in certain areas, but no one ticks every box.
For me, the best outcome is simply that Ole improves his coaching this season. Everything else about the guy is exactly what we want. However, my worry is that, if he still comes up short after almost 4 seasons, it may just be that he's hit his ceiling.
I agree and I can totally understand your reservations around the coaching or the in game management aspect, we all see things that could be better but we trust his judgement and hope that if he is making mistakes, he's learning from them, like everyone does in any job.
What I don't agree with is the achievements thing. A good CV doesn't guarantee future success, same for players. We've had big names come here in the last few years and stink the place out, same for managers. We're a unique club with a different identity. We will never be a Madrid or a Chelsea so there's no point in trying to replicate anything they're doing. It's all about being the right fit for a club like Manchester United.
Also, when Solskajer does win a trophy, your argument is no longer valid so it doesn't make sense to use that as a reason to potentially sack someone, in what is the most competitive league we've probably ever seen in the PL era.
I agree regarding Conte. The guy is a winner and knows how to put a football team together. I think that's beyond question at this point. Even so he's not someone I would be excited about as a replacement for Ole.
Regarding the ceiling for what we can achieve as it is now - as a disclaimer I'm not going to be that guy who constantly makes excuses for anyone, and we obviously have a marvellous squad of players, but there is no doubt a conversation to be had around whether we can claim that we've reached a ceiling when so many people consider our squad, or more specifically our midfield, to be incomplete. On one hand we need to make do with what we have and on the other its quite possible that this team still has another gear if we can recruit the right players there.
Ole doesn't coach, because that's not his strength, and outsources coaching to Carrick, McKenna et al. It is unclear as of yet if our first team coaches are as good as Tuchel, Klopp, and Guardiola, who do coach their respective teams. Ole is a manager in the Ancelotti mold (as people have pointed out in this thread), but better fit for us because he has been a player at the club. Furthermore, likely due to assurances about his longer-term future from the club hierarchy, and his love for the club, his decisions take in to account both the short- and longer-term view of the club.
The media in the UK has always been enamored with tacticians from continental Europe. It was the same with Jose's first stint at Chelsea. However, I would argue that United, at least since Busby, have always had managers and not tacticians leading the club. It suits us better, because our players are always encouraged to play with flair and take risks - relying on individual brilliance rather than tactical genius to win. That's how we have always won/lost. That's why we create 'superstars' out of footballers more than any other team in the league.
The media in the UK has always been enamored with tacticians from continental Europe. It was the same with Jose's first stint at Chelsea. However, I would argue that United, at least since Busby, have always had managers and not tacticians leading the club. It suits us better, because our players are always encouraged to play with flair and take risks - relying on individual brilliance rather than tactical genius to win. That's how we have always won/lost. That's why we create 'superstars' out of footballers more than any other team in the league.
This reads like an O-Level theory question... I'll bite
1. Pep's system: going forward, monopolize possession. Use DB and CBs as primary means of switching play and advancing the ball, as advanced midfielders sit deep in opposition territory pinning down opposition players. Look to create localized mismatches (1 vs 1 or 3 vs 2 or...) that can create a high quality chance by getting to the byline. In defense, limit transition opportunities for the opposition. Shown to be effective in terms of goals scored and goals conceded.
2. SAF's system in 2008: attack: have players very competent in counter-attacking (Ronaldo, Rooney, Carrick, Evra, etc) to capitalize on transition opportunities presented by the opposition. In addition (and this is a very ignored aspect of SAF's tactics), the ability to overload and overwhelm the opposition on the wings, taking advantage of Scholes and Carrick's ability to rapidly switch play, constantly providing our wingers/fullbacks with 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 1 situations. In defense: having Rooney and Tevez defend from the front. Having Carrick shadow and mop up in defense (and quickly flipping the switch). Very competent sweeper in Rio and man defender in Vidic. Broke records for goals conceded, and we scored enough to win stuff.
3. Tuchel's system: not as clear on this as I didn't really watch him at PSG. At Chelsea, it looks like he is more comfortable at using transition play to generate attacking opportunities for his team. I'm not sure/have not yet seen his team take the initiative and impose their will on a match against quality opposition. He can coach an effective defense but it's kind of cheating with 3 CBs and Kante and Kovacic providing muscle in the middle of the pitch. Again, still room for me to understand better. In my opinion they still have it all to prove over a league campaign.
4: Ole's system: vibes and inshallah? Just joking but seriously, I've watched for a while but it is really hard for me to identify key patterns of play that our team has automated. Apart from maybe Shaw's role in our team, he was probably our most important player coming into this season going both ways. But otherwise we rely on improvisation a lot more than the 3 examples mentioned above. It relies a lot on results for validation... If results go south it's hard to say "we did everything but score" in most examples with Ole. I'm still hoping he makes this leap, or the coaching staff at least. I'd love for someone to point this out to me if I'm missing something.
I expect a B+ at least.
This arguments gets under my skin all the time. Who cares, what somebody expected, wouldn't you have celebrated a league title because nobody was expecting it?! What have expectations to do with us objectively being top of the table and then letting it go in a pretty disappointing fashion? Exactly, it has nothing to do with it. As I said, a 2nd place is a great achievement and before the season, no one would have expected it. But also most people wouldn't have expected Chelsea to crumble with all the new signings, Liverpool to dissolve due to injuries and bad decisions by Klopp and us staying mostly injury free (especially considering the schedule).
No one wants you to cry about a 2nd place, but dismissing that we have been in a promising position and then gave it away without a fight is disingenious. I am not trying to blame Ole, of course the players are just as much to blame, but acting as if everything went great seems weird to me.
This is certainly true if we would still be in 2019 or early 2020. But now, I absolutely don't see it. "The forum" is certainly not overcritical, just have a look at the number of critical and supportive posts and posters in this thread, the overwhelming majority is supportive, a few are critical and even fewer are overcritical. A witch-hunt is happening, but the ones hunted I feel are the ones who are critical.
Has he? I am not so sure about this. I mean, it isn't like Ole is the first one to try him in midfield, Jose did as well. Next to Matic. And I have not many fond memories about it. Pogba just isn't great at spacial awareness, he lacks the aggressiveness and workrate to work in midfield two that is needed to give defensive stability to our team. Just blaming Fred seems wrong to me, Fred is part of a team, and if he is alone against one of the best dribblers in the league more than once in a game, then I know there are few things to adress after talking to Fred about his (undenied) lapsus.
Most of our issues stem from us not being great as a collective, I hope, this will change, but only switching a player here and there will not make up for it.
I agree with the conclusion, but I think, it is highly speculative to say we missed players to "play the way we want" because it is difficult to say, if there even is such a way. Plus I always have a feeling that a very fundamental part is missing in such thinking: the opponent. The opponent has at least as much influence in how we play as our own players do. And our opponents will continue to react on our strengths, therefor the manager isn't needed to come up with the golden formula once in his tenure, it is a constant job to adjust it once he may have found it.
That wasn't what I meant. I meant Ole could have made the decision between Pogba and Rashford and leave one of them on the bench for later impact. It was mostly consensus in the Caf that Matic would be alright for matches that are supposed to be against a deep block, Donny for all his nothingness, would have been a player that might have found some space, same with Mata. Of course this isn't like bringing on Neymar and Mane, but it would have been at least a try to force something. For not being passive.
I am not even saying starting with Rash and Pogs is Oles mistake, it would have made sense to bring them both onto the pitch from the start but then go offensive, go for the kill as soon as possible. But we didn't. We just played the same stuff for 120 minutes. Managers can influence so much without bringing in new personal, neglecting that part of the game is no deadly sin of course, but it leaves one of the tools our competitors make use of, unused.
Wtf are you on about? If you are 1st at a point and lose the position, you can't really be disappointed because it wasn't unexpected. We came 2nd to a better team at the end of the day. It's like saying Klopp bottled the title in 18/19 because they were leading for most part and then finished 2nd to City, or like saying Conte bottled the title 2 seasons ago and I can go on.
And as far as other teams collapsing is concerned, we finished ahead of them. So, what's your point? We finished ahead of teams that were struggling, and that should happen as well.
Just like in 19/20, we should have probably acknowledged good work by the team for finishing 3rd despite an injury crisis - which I don't think a lot of posters gave.
I'll have to play the experience card on this one. Having been a member for nearly 20 years I would hope to be able to offer a somewhat informed opinion on things now compared to how they used to be. Yes I'm aware that times have changed and a lot of my time here was during Fergusons successful years, but even so I don't believe this forum has ever been split the way it is since Ole started and its certainly never been so dramatic after a match. The matchday forum has always been a notorious shitshow but now its better simply to avoid anything United related here after a game. Its probably slightly better than last season to be fair, but considering we have made three massive signings and are currently top of the league its expected to be. Wait for the next defeat.....
1. Pep is about possession as a way of attacking and defending. He uses pressing to take away room for opposition and force mistakes, plays usually a high line and makes use of tactical fouls against counters. His city side uses its fullbacks to support center midfield, so their two playmakers (D. Silva and De Bruyne, now Grealish, Bernado etc) can join the attack in the half spaces while their wingers hold width. They are very structured, and have set moves to attack, leading to many tap ins. They play without a real number 9 - it is all about moving the ball fast to create openings and easy chances. They are very very good in stopping opposition chances, mostly by keeping the ball for long periods of the match. They are also very productive in chance creation but usually lacking the top conversion rate a top striker would give them (thank god, they didn't get Kane, he could have been awesome for them based on him being a top striker and a very good creator as well).
2. In 2008 Fergies United was a very solid team with great transitional play. Quick attacks with exceptional talent coupled with a next to impenetrable defense. This team was very versatile, was able to hold possession when needed or wait patiently for counters. Based on fergies book, he created his squads around players with the right characters, he encouraged them to come up with something on their own and made sure, he had always great talent in attack. Seemingly like Ole does these days. In the big games especially in 2008 and 2009, Fergie often went 4-5-1 to stay defensively sound in the middle of the park. To the end of his tenure, Fergies teams also weren't famous for playing the greatest to watch football and for constant creation of chances.
3. Tuchels system: Based on Dortmund, PSG and Chelsea Tuchel is using a possession based style to control the game. The team moves as a unit, his Chelsea side uses 3 CBs to have one free to support midfield which is a bit lightweight but has a great ball carrier in Kovacic and a great passer in Jorginho.
Offensively he has no real trademark things, I guess, he encourages his players to come up with solutions while maintaining a constant structure so they are always in control. (There is a good interview with him, where he talks about it). Looking at the individual games of Chelsea last season, it is remarkable how well his team works to stop opposition chances and to create more than enough for his own.
4. Ole: Based on what we see, Ole wants us to be as direct, fast and vertical as possible. surpassing midfield by launching attacks with long through balls after winning the ball at best relative high up the field. It is easy to see, that Ole wants his offensive players to switch positions with each other. Last match (first with Ronaldo) we have seen quite a few crosses, something that was relatively new.
Defensively he uses a for the most part more deep line and a compact setup with a double pivot, in big games he mostly goes for counter tactics and sometimes for a bit of midfield pressing (usually not the most coordinated though).
And still, here we are and a few people are disappointed. Lets not go deeper into it, I understand, you are very sure about your stance, but I don't get it at all. We were top of the table despite the other team being a great team and we gave the spot away with lazy performances against Sheffield and Westbrom. I would get your point, if we missed out because we were not able to overcome the bigger teams, losing to many big points but we were alright in that respect.
I understand your point. But I really don't see the big split. The overwhelming majority isn't unreasonable, mostly supportive and celebrates the great achievements of the manager. After bad performances it isn't great, I agree with you. But I really think, this is due to high levels of tension on both sides. The more smug the supporters are in times of success the more vile the critics will be in times of failure. And on a personal note: today somebody posted he/she would find it weird, that there are angry discussions after a victory - I really don't think, there were any angry discussions in this thread at all.
Very good post. You are very correct about Fergie overloading on wings, something I think we should've done more against Newcastle because we have great wingers, to create space. I don't see many patterns with Ole either, I got more and more the feeling, and I think it has been clear this season too, that he relies very much on that our attackers will find a way, which of course often works because we have so many match-winners but I don't think our play is sustainable over a season against great teams. We have only met 10-20 teams and they have all really punished us on the counter. If we don't improve, we will find it difficult against better teams, although I think we will improve slightly.
Well this is largely my point. The split has created agendas, the agendas are affecting people's opinions and these views are leading to an increase in extreme posting. Ultimately the cost of that is a lot of people choosing not to come here at times.
Are you referring to what I wrote ?
Have you ever considered the slight possibility that big teams quite often drop points to poor opposition?
We were top of the table because City had a poor start, poorer than us as well, and then they managed to use the depth of the squad in a congested season to win the title. There's a reason why most sides that won their leagues either had the deepest squads or were knocked out of other competitions quite early.
And lastly, if we are to use your logic, then I don't think you can even use the injury argument. Van Dijk or No Van Dijk, Pool should be beating Burnley and Southampton. They didn't drop a lot of points to bigger sides as well, so if we are to use that logic, I'd then say that "Pool's injury record shouldn't matter". A side with TAA, Allison, Robertson, Salah, Mane, Fabinho, Thiago, Wijnaldum is good enough to beat bottom 12 sides of the league day in day out
Bilbo, just keep posting when you can and try not to let the idiotic posters put you off. There’s still plenty of good posters here and it’s great to see some old names!
Winning the PL or CL will be extremely difficult tbf. We should certainly be challenging for the PL and reaching the QF of the CL.
Winning the FA Cup would be nice but it wouldn't be huge for me. The League Cup is irrelevant and should be used to give fringe players/youngsters minutes.
I think Ole will be judged this season on how close we look to our competitors. No one is reslly expecting the league or CL.
I think it's hard to say that we should expect to win, but surely we are expected to... challenge for the title and if we don't win it we should be disappointed? (Not like last season where 2nd place was good). We have the squad to win it and we are currently top of the league.
I really mean him having a personal ceiling in terms of how good he can be at coaching. I can accept that a shortfall of quality in midfield could scupper our chances this season, but I think you can differentiate between a performance by a team where the individuals are well coached but limited, and a performance by a team that lacks a clear structure for how it operates.
Ole has a winning record again Pep.
My expectations in relation to the PL is that we challenge. What that looks like is very subjective, but for me, it would be to be finishing within 6 to 8 points of the leaders and being right in it up until the final weeks. Obviously my numbers aren't an absolute by any means, as there are plenty of variables that could change my outlook, over the course of the season.
I don't think any stock can be placed into being top of the league after 4 games. Spurs were there before us and Brighton are currently 5th; it means feck all. I agree we have the squad to win it, and for me, we have the second best starting 11 behind City. But then again, us, Chelsea, City and Liverpool could all conceivably win it, so 3 teams are going to be left disappointed. Progress for me is a proper challenge, so I would be satisfied with that. I would obviously be disappointed if we come extremely close to winning it and miss out, naturally enough.
Ole seems like the type of guy who is very careful about who he surrounds himself with. We had issues with set pieces and he's made moves to address that on the coaching staff with (IMO) some early signs of success.
I dont think we will ever be this team that has the clear structure that so many crave - though I do also feel that it's massively overstated on here - but I'm fine with that and I don't believe that it will hamper us. I think we have improved immensely at controlling matches and playing them on our terms, and I don't see Ole being either (a) too stubborn to shake things up if needed or (b) not smart enough to identify that need if its there.
No, I was referring to post #62,493.
You wouldn't need to ask me if I considered this or that if you would stop being so defensive! I have no issues with dropping points from time to time. I have issues with playing shit and not creating anything of note against shit teams over and over again. In some games it hurt us, in some games it fortunately didn't. We were shit in creating chances and we did nothing against it - for quite a long time. Same as we have been shit at set pieces for at least 2 years. It is great to have added somebody to the coaching team, but I can still be puzzled why it took us so long.
Liverpool not only lost Van Dijk, they lost all their senior defenders and then made the mistake, to disrupt their team even more by putting their midfielders at CB only to have two problematic areas. And they still were able to create more chances than us.
Seriously mate, lets cut it here. It is obvious that you have not even the slightest intention of finding a middle ground. You are set that we achieved the maximum last season, I am set that we didn't. Lets leave it at that.
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How am I being defensive by asking a question for which everyone knows what the answer is? Here's the thing - we dropped points to WBA, SHU but City dropped points to WBA and other unfancied opposition as well. And how many points did we drop against "low block" teams? It's one of those assumptions that people have embedded in their minds that we haven't played well against low blocks.
Assuming last season, the low block teams were Burnley, Newcastle, SHU, CP, Wolves - our record was P10 W7 D1 L2 GF:21 GA:12. Not great, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be.
Sure, they didn't have Matip and VVD, but if I'm using your logic that top teams need to beat botom teams consistently, I'd say even without those 2, Pool is better than Newcastle, Burnley, Southampton, Fulham. See, I'm just using your argument against you. Nothing more. I agree btw that losing those defenders is a blow. But then, you need to acknowledge that playing every 3rd day and not showing fatigue is impossible as well.
And yeah, if you think we should have won the title, then I'm not sure what to say there.
need to pinch myself.. I love this squad, love this team, first time in ages I have felt like this.
cheers ole!
supporting united is exciting again!
cheers ole!
supporting united is exciting again!
An Arsenal supporter calling United "his" team - impersonation automatically carries an F
Thank you to both for your posts.
Non-rhetorical follow-ups:
- So is it generally correct to summarize that apart from Pep, you think no one else in the above list REALLY has had "key patterns of play that are automated" (@adexkola) or "have set moves to attack" (@NZT-One)?
- Do you think Pep would have been able to achieve his success if he didn't have the right players to consistently execute these "set moves"? I see a lot of player names thrown around to describe how/why a system works.
- Is that your gripe with Ole - that there are no easily identifiable repetitive patterns as opposed to not having a system? Because there is a description that can be attributed to how Ole plays - can we call that a system? @NZT-One even describes it to some extent using his/her viewpoint.
- Do you honestly think Ole, McKenna, Carrick, Phelan (from our coaching staff), Fergie, Tuchel couldn't implement "set moves" if they had the players and that philosophy?
Why are you asking if you know the answer in the first place? I don't know how to be more clear, I have no issues with us dropping points, not even to relegation fodder. My issue is that we did so plus not even being able to create a chance to score. We drawed to Westbrom having an xG of 0.4 and xGA of 1.1, when City drawed them, they had an xG of 1.9 and xGA of 0.3 . One team failed doing nothing, the other team failed but created something while stopping the opponent. Both matches ended 1:1 btw.
Plus:
City lost points against Leicester, Leeds, Westham, Liverpool, Spurs, ManUtd, Westbrom, ManUtd, Leeds, Chelsea, Brighton - in only 7 of these 11 matches they had the better xG value.
United lost points to Palace, Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, Westham, ManCity, Leicester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Arsenal, Everton, Westbrom, Chelsea, Crystal Palace, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, Fulham - in 8 of these 19 matches, United had the better xG value.
I didn't talk about low blocks, don't know why you mention this.
Maybe we have a misunderstanding, I have no idea, why somebody wouldn't confirm we had an issue here.
Again, haven't talked about low block, I know, we didn't overly bad against these, we struggled against all sorts of teams except for the ones, that gave us room.
All you can do, is try to create goal chances and try to stop the opponent to create some. The end result is effected by so many factors. If you want to see Liverpools struggles as something they just should shrug of, alright. Imagine we would have to play McTominay and Fred in Defense while Shaw is completely out of form. I am sure, many would have adjusted their season expectations very fast.
I didn't say we "should have won". I tried to say, we might have been as close as it gets for a while, as you said City took time to get into gear, we were relatively lucky with injuries, Chelsea having problems, we out of the CL after the group stages - you can't tell me that this isn't a pretty good setup for a serious challenge. And even though I didn't expect us to get the title, I would have hoped to give City a nice run for their money. But we didn't. If you've seen that as City being overly great, then ok. I've seen that as United been unnecessarily bad*. (Bad on a title contender level, not bad in absolute terms at all).
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