Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[Kelly15]

Ole is a amazing Manger. He really is on another level. The way he handles the press. His tactics. His man management skills. The coaches he has surrounding him. The squad he has assembled. How he handles the pressure being in charge of the biggest club in the world. Where everyone on the planet has a opinion. He has done a fantastic job. And once we get that first trophy under him, the sky's the limit. Haven't been buzzing like this since the day of SAF. Fabulous time to be a supporter.

Glory glory Man United!

 

[pratyush_utd]

Took us 7 games last season to reach 10 points. Ole has shown he can put together winning runs. Hopefully this season we will do it for a loner time

 

[rotherham_red]

Obviously there is no sure fire way to know since of course we aren't involved in any of the training sessions etc. - but I think it comes down to what we are seeing. I'd say a lot of our improvements are purely down to simply just having better players but we still leave a lot to desire in the aspects of the game that are collective - eg. the pressing, passing, movement off the ball, ability to isolate our forwards against defenders etc.

You just need to see how much quicker teams like Liverpool/City etc. move the ball, how much more organised their press is compared to ours.

The young player argument doesn't hold up as much when the young players in and around the squad are some of the best in their position already, as well as already being established players. I also do understand it takes time to implement a system, but this is what, his 4th year now? If we can't start seeing the signs of progressive, sustainable football, when exactly will we?

I also understand that Ole may not be a coach as is usually the argument around here, but as the manager it's still his responsibility to ensure the club is at a place where it can win silverware. If he can't identify/remedy the issues with the coaching staff etc. then he has still failed in my books. I'm not comfortable with the idea of removing all responsibility from the manager of arguably the biggest club on the planet. He needs to start winning silverware now, this team is more than good enough to be winning CL/PL levels of competitions.

I hope he does well and proves us all wrong, but I simply think given how good the squads of our competitors are, that the difference will come down to the minor details - an aspect of management I just think Klopp, Pep and Tuchel are superior to Ole than. He has earnt the ability to have this season to prove me and the others wrong though, so hopefully he does.

He needed and still needs quality players. Klopp was going nowhere but 4th every season, and was looking more like replacing Wenger's Arsenal in the Top 4 hierarchy than being serious title challengers, until he binned Karius, Lovren and Can for Alisson, VVD (both of whom broke their respective transfer fee records for their position) and Fabinho to add to the signings of Salah and Mane at a combined £77m. That happened in his 4th full season. Ole is currently in his 3rd. Likewise, Pep despite having already had the most talented and deepest squad in the league, needed to spend £400m+ across two summers before he won his first trophy.

Good coaches/systems are not the equalisers you think they are, and no matter who is in charge, the prospects of a team is only ever going to be as relevant as the quality of the players at their disposal. Liverpool sunk without a trace when their best CB was out last season.

These teams you highlight as being better than us are there because of their players, not because of the system. If a manager is well liked and respected, then more often than not he will get a tune out of his team. It's what Ancelotti does best. Zizou likewise and Ole is seemingly cut from the same cloth, as was SAF. The reason why Lampard flopped was because he couldn't handle the egos that were brought in and the players lost their belief in him. The one thing Ole has retained, through everything, has been the respect of the players, which should tell you everything. Especially after what transpired under the previous three managers at the club with a large subset of the players being present in all three tenures.

 

[georgipep]

Regarding your first paragraph: that is fair and I don't think my post denies that either.

My issue is with your second paragraph, as the likes of Kees on Twitter do seemingly have an agenda against the manager of the club. They're condescending, bordering on insulting to anyone who disagrees and when they are challenged they obfuscate and go down tangents as well as hide behind technical jargon to try and make it seem like their position and view of how football is to be played is the objectively correct one when in actuality, it's a subjective opinion, just like mine or yours would be. All of which are telltale signs of a bad faith argument.

Let's face it, the only stat that should matter is points on the table. In that regard Ole is comfortably ahead of every manager not named Pep or Jürgen in the league since he first arrived as caretaker, and since Bruno has come in, we're ahead of Jürgen on that count too. Now, with a close to perfect squad the pressure is now on Ole to accelerate the improvement and properly challenge/win. The pressure is increased, but with that pressure, so too have the tools at his disposal been improved at an exponential rate.

It's up to you how you feel he can do on that front, but personally I think he'll be fine considering what he was able to do in 19/20 after having Lingard and Pereira starting week in and week out for half the season, or in 20/21 after having the transfer window from hell and Chelsea having the transfer window of their dreams, Liverpool adding "the best midfielder in the world™" to their all-conquering team, and City splashing £150m+ fleshing out their squad even further. This is the first window of Ole's which is somewhat comparable to Klopp's 2018 summer, literally any of Pep's, or Lampard's 2020, so with it expectations are naturally heightened. Let's see what happens...

I am enjoying every second of Ole's time with the club and am quite happy with the progress made. I also agree that this season he needs to continue showing progress or the tough questions will be asked.

As for the original point, I think we all mostly have trouble with the analysts/pundits/commentators. Not the data. Data is impartial. Interpretations are not. When used in isolation, data can be very misleading, insights can be straight wrong or even dangerous. But that's the human element of it all.

 

[Womp]

He needed and still needs quality players. Klopp was going nowhere but 4th every season, and was looking more like replacing Wenger's Arsenal in the Top 4 hierarchy than being serious title challengers, until he binned Karius, Lovren and Can for Alisson, VVD (both of whom broke their respective transfer fee records for their position) and Fabinho to add to the signings of Salah and Mane at a combined £77m. That happened in his 4th full season. Ole is currently in his 3rd. Likewise, Pep despite having already had the most talented and deepest squad in the league, needed to spend £400m+ across two summers before he won his first trophy.

Good coaches/systems are not the equalisers you think they are, and no matter who is in charge, the prospects of a team is only ever going to be as relevant as the quality of the players at their disposal. Liverpool sunk without a trace when their best CB was out last season.

These teams you highlight as being better than us are there because of their players, not because of the system. If a manager is well liked and respected, then more often than not he will get a tune out of his team. It's what Ancelotti does best. Zizou likewise and Ole is seemingly cut from the same cloth, as was SAF. The reason why Lampard flopped was because he couldn't handle the egos that were brought in and the players lost their belief in him. The one thing Ole has retained, through everything, has been the respect of the players, which should tell you everything. Especially after what transpired under the previous three managers at the club with a large subset of the players being present in all three tenures.

Few issues about this that I need to comment on.

This would be correct if the premise I was presenting was that great players were needed to win trophies, which I wasn't. I agree with you that great players are needed to win silverware but you could see the football that was being played by Liverpool and City before they improved the quality of the squads. That is the point here.

Klopp was going nowhere but 4th every season, and was looking more like replacing Wenger's Arsenal in the Top 4 hierarchy than being serious title challengers, until he binned Karius, Lovren and Can for Alisson, VVD (both of whom broke their respective transfer fee records for their position) and Fabinho to add to the signings of Salah and Mane at a combined £77m. That happened in his 4th full season. Ole is currently in his 3rd. Likewise, Pep despite having already had the most talented and deepest squad in the league, needed to spend £400m+ across two summers before he won his first trophy.

The team Klopp inherited was far worse than the one Ole inherited, to start. Secondly, the football they were going to implement was made evident quite early. Quick ball movements, the high intensity running and pressing etc. Even though he didn't have the players to win silverware - you were seeing what he was trying to implement. He was improving the collective of the squad. Also commenting on his spending considering how wank that Liverpool squad was, especially when Ole has spent more and achieved less in the same time makes no sense to me.

Good coaches/systems are not the equalisers you think they are, and no matter who is in charge, the prospects of a team is only ever going to be as relevant as the quality of the players at their disposal. Liverpool sunk without a trace when their best CB was out last season.

I agree, great players are required to win trophies consistently. Once again though, you don't need a World class player in every position to implement a sustainable and progressive style of football. That level of coaching is what's required in the EPL these days, considering the level of the managers competing. Also Liverpool had more than one injury, they were extremely unlucky with injuries, lost multiple first team players and finished a whole 5 points behind us. Hardly 'falling off without a trace'.

These teams you highlight as being better than us are there because of their players, not because of the system. If a manager is well liked and respected, then more often than not he will get a tune out of his team. It's what Ancelotti does best. Zizou likewise and Ole is seemingly cut from the same cloth, as was SAF. The reason why Lampard flopped was because he couldn't handle the egos that were brought in and the players lost their belief in him. The one thing Ole has retained, through everything, has been the respect of the players, which should tell you everything. Especially after what transpired under the previous three managers at the club with a large subset of the players being present in all three tenures.

Sorry but I think this is rubbish. I agree that managers like Ole, Zidane etc. that are good at man management can get a tune out of a squad - that's never been argued. The difference is with progressive coaches that can improve the collective of the squad. Claiming it's purely down to the players is ridiculous. It's really no surprise that Pep can get players playing to ridiculous levels, that Tuchel improved a defence immensely without signing any players.

If it's purely down to the players, once again, what exactly is the purpose of coaching staff?

Also the word you're probably looking for is pragmatic. That's what Ole, Zizou etc. is. They're very good at it too. Players are on board, I completely agree in that regard. I'm just not convinced like some on here that that's going to be enough. We are competing with teams that are just as talented and probably always will be just as talented given their resources so the difference comes down to how many said managers or coaches can improve their players through the system they implement.

 

[sglowrider]

Ole is re-build a club and not just the team.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Ole is re-build a club and not just the team.

He's managing one of the richest clubs on the planet not Southampton. Done well to improve the squad profile and quality, and now needs to prove he's a top class manager who can win big trophies and turn us into a top team.

 

[lysglimt]

Always nice to make you smile.


It doesn't if you look at one game for itself. When you look over a longer period of time, I think, it is obvious that a well oiled team as big advantages. I think, this is something, that might be overlooked somehow, a lot of the criticism, that comes up (even after games like yesterday) stems from things, that have been criticised for a long time. And the inability to create good chances has prevented us from trashing Villareal whose players were physically done after 60 to 70 minutes. The inability to circulate the ball takes a big share for us not being able to control the match against Leipzig in the CL. These issues are having an effect. They should be engaged with. Pointing that out, should never be seen as negativity.

The problem against Villareal - apart from us not being at our best, was that we had no impact from the bench. We did not have a single creative player on that bench apart from Diallo who is too inexperienced, Mata who is past it and v.d Beek who has never been good enough for us. So whoever we subbed in that game would weaken us.

So even if I generally agree with your point - our main problem over the last 18 months has not been the system - but the players available. We have lacked impact from the bench

 

[sglowrider]

The problem against Villareal - apart from us not being at our best, was that we had no impact from the bench. We did not have a single creative player on that bench apart from Diallo who is too inexperienced, Mata who is past it and v.d Beek who has never been good enough for us. So whoever we subbed in that game would weaken us.
So even if I generally agree with your point - our main problem over the last 18 months has not been the system - but the players available. We have lacked impact from the bench

This. 100%

 

[Bobcat]

No debate about the bold part. Taking these 4 games to draw some conclusions is indeed pretty pointless. Taking the whole of last season as a sample size isn't. You mentioned Liverpool and their inability to score, I haven't checked it but what I talked about their xG so their ability to create goal chances. Liverpool, for all their injuries and other troubles, managed to create more chances than we did. In fact, we are forth behind City, Pool and Chelsea (even though Chelsea just a fraction). We outperformed our xG over the whole season and we are continuing this trend at least until now. That means, our issues weren't that we missed a goal scorer, we were pretty good at that, what we are lacking in comparison to our competitors is the ability to create chances. Again, I am not trying to make that look as a stick to beat Ole with, all I am saying is that our closest competitors have been better at that over a whole season.


I don't understand what you mean with philosophy. If you mean, Ole has to look for players who thrive in a more freedom based system, then yes of course. And he made had one hit by getting Bruno. The rest of the acquisitions are pretty difficult to evaluate in that context, wouldn't you agree?
If you meant, it is next to impossible to create a system or "philosophy" that fits our squad, then I wouldn't agree. Of course, such an approach benefits you more the longer it is applied but it is certainly not impossible. This is something Klopp for example has been really good at.

All in all, I personally am pretty skeptical, that a pure freedom based approach, which is what I am expecting us to do based on last seasons, will be able to reach the highest hights. But looking at our squad, I certainly wouldn't bet against us which is credit to Ole. This season, none of our competitors will take the games against us lightly. And looking at the matches against Wolves and Newcastle, I think, some indicators for a blueprint are already in place. Lets see, how this pans out once we have our usual midfield back.


Well unfortunately, we can't really know that. I'd love to agree with you but to often, I am puzzled how out of sync we look during games. Obviously, this can be caused by an infinite number of reasons but still.

The problem with xG is that in many cases it does not take into account who is taking the shot. Greenwood for example has some pretty wild numbers where his goal/xG ratio is off the charts. Since he plays wide and most of his finishes are him cutting inside, they are going to be low xG because if a right sided attacker, who in 99% of cases is right footed shoots from those positions its going to be much harder to get a good angle

That being said though, i agree that on the whole our xG numbers last season were not great and it shows a picture of us not being as dominant as we would like to be. The high number of close comback wins being a symptom of that.

This years signings will imporve that massively though i think. First of all, Varane adds a whole new level of calmness to our backline that Lindelof does not. This is not a dig at the latter, but Varane is a Rolls Royce of a CB, and there are not many in the world at his level. It also allows us to play Pogba deeper without sacrificing too much defensive security and if he keeps this form up hes going to produce some wild numbers this year. Having Pogba there instead of Fred/McTomminay is also going to be of huge help in our build up play as hes way more comfortable with the ball at his feet than those other two

Secondly, with Sancho we now have a quality wide player that can play on both sides. Considering Rashford was struggling with injuries and niggles pretty much all season, and Martial was complete shit, we always had one side that struggled with creativity last season. Lastly, Ronaldo solves our CF problems as well. As good as Cavani can be, he did not put up crazy numbers in the league last year.

Also, i am not saying that Ole giving the players complete freedom, but certainly less than someone like Pep. The biggest difference is that we are more direct and take more risky passes, where as Pep's teams are always more patient and methodical in their build up.

 

[tomaldinho1]

We've been out of the CL more often than we've been it since SAF left - that's a good 7 year period. If it was as simple as having lower quality opponents then what was LvG and Jose's records to the same extent. And this is before I bring out my favourite stat of Ole's: we've scored 5 or more goals in a game 10 times since Ole got here. The previous three managers combined only did it twice.

It's not a fluke.

You said since 06/07 not 12/13. I can go and work it out if you like?

 

[NZT-One]

The problem against Villareal - apart from us not being at our best, was that we had no impact from the bench. We did not have a single creative player on that bench apart from Diallo who is too inexperienced, Mata who is past it and v.d Beek who has never been good enough for us. So whoever we subbed in that game would weaken us.

So even if I generally agree with your point - our main problem over the last 18 months has not been the system - but the players available. We have lacked impact from the bench.

I guess we will never find a definitive answer on that question. And I think, maybe that is where our biases come into play as well - me seeing other teams and what they do with lesser players and coming to the conclusion it is our "system" and you seeing it as having not the right players while the manager is free of charge. I respect that but it is wildly unconvincing to me.

Regarding EL final: Ole could have had an impact sub, had he decided to not put Pogba and Rashford in the starting eleven. One of them could have been on the bench to make an impact later on. Likewise he could have gone for Villareals throat from the get-go, having all the firepower available on the pitch, blitz them and then defend the rest of the 90min. So there were possibilities, this isn't Real Madrid or Inter Mailand we are talking about - it was Villareal.

Having an impulse is not only getting on a sub, don't get me wrong, I don't even have that big of grudge because of a match lost on penalties. What hurts was us seemingly not even trying to find a way to overcome Emery's game plan. A plan that wasn't unexpected at all but could have been expected and prepared for somehow.

 

[Tom Cato]

I'll never not be amazed that we're having angry discussions about the manager being incompetent while sitting #1 in the Premier League

 

[NZT-One]

The problem with xG is that in many cases it does not take into account who is taking the shot. Greenwood for example has some pretty wild numbers where his goal/xG ratio is off the charts. Since he plays wide and most of his finishes are him cutting inside, they are going to be low xG because if a right sided attacker, who in 99% of cases is right footed shoots from those positions its going to be much harder to get a good angle

I don't think, that is correct. If anything, we could say, that we would have to expect outperforming our xG because this is based on average goal chances by all sorts of players while we have elite players that you would expect be above average. But this Greenwood example doesn't feel right to me. First I'd argue, that a lot of teams play with inverted wingers now so this should be factored in and second a shot like the goal against Wolves and before the first goal against Newcastle are low-chance-shots. A well packed box, a well positioned keeper who easily got the shot in Newcastles case but then having a blunder to let it go. A slight deflection on its way as well. The finish against Wolves was inch perfect, but still needed a bit of a deflection from the keeper to go in.

The xG system has flaws, no doubt about that. For example moves to promising positions where no shot results from or great crosses that just nobody goes for but it is way better than just shots on goal.

This years signings will imporve that massively though i think. First of all, Varane adds a whole new level of calmness to our backline that Lindelof does not. This is not a dig at the latter, but Varane is a Rolls Royce of a CB, and there are not many in the world at his level. It also allows us to play Pogba deeper without sacrificing too much defensive security and if he keeps this form up hes going to produce some wild numbers this year. Having Pogba there instead of Fred/McTomminay is also going to be of huge help in our build up play as hes way more comfortable with the ball at his feet than those other two

Agree with Varane, do not agree with the Pogba thing. Southhampton and Wolves match showed, that the known flaws are still there so he stays a bit of a risk out of possession as long as we don't come up with a way to compensate. His assists tally is awesome, no question about that, but he isn't a winger or offensive midfielder so I think, the number of assist shouldn't be the only thing to evaluate his contribution.

Secondly, with Sancho we now have a quality wide player that can play on both sides. Considering Rashford was struggling with injuries and niggles pretty much all season, and Martial was complete shit, we always had one side that struggled with creativity last season. Lastly, Ronaldo solves our CF problems as well. As good as Cavani can be, he did not put up crazy numbers in the league last year.

Yeah I have high hopes for Sancho as well. Hopefully the focus on Ronaldo can take away a bit of the pressure I feel he plays with. It is early days though, hopefully he will come good. Against Newcastle, he had some good moves with Shaw, we really have to built on that.

Also, i am not saying that Ole giving the players complete freedom, but certainly less than someone like Pep. The biggest difference is that we are more direct and take more risky passes, where as Pep's teams are always more patient and methodical in their build up.

Absolutely and I think, this is absolutely fine in the grand scheme of things. No question about Ole's approach leading to entertaining matches to watch. Maybe, what I said about it sounded more absolute than it should, my main concern is, that in my eyes a top team needs to be able to play to the occasion, meaning go for the throat when opportunity is there but be calm and keep the ball, when you have to. Our "fast-and-direct" approach is nice but when we are struggling in midfield or in controlling the game or when the opponent is building momentum, it would be better to be able to keep the ball for longer periods of time as another tool to get results.

I also think, this is a natural evolution - opponents will approach teams who are good in quick transitions by not giving them opportunities for quick transitions. An evolution is needed to a more possession oriented style while maintaining the ability to transition quickly.

 

[OleBoiii]

Time for an update on how to address the remaining critiques towards Ole. They are luckily getting fewer day by day, so it shouldn't take long:

1. His CV before taking over United isn't very impressive
Irrelevant. Next!

2. I don't like his style of play
Also highly irrelevant, not to mention subjective. There was a sizeable portion of United fans(online) who didn't like our style of play in Fergie's last 3-4 seasons as well.

3. He hasn't won a major trophy yet
Nor should he have. If he had won a major trophy(PL or CL) with any of the teams he's had so far, it would have been sensational. And before you bring up Tuchel, my counter is this: Di Matteo did the same. With a much worse team, nonetheless!

4. He hasn't won a minor trophy either
Minor trophies are always side quests. They're not a great way to judge a manager, as they are never the primary objective. Van Gaal won a minor trophy. Mourinho won two. Hell, even Arteta has won one with Arsenal. These are not sticks to beat Ole with, but rather evidence that these trophies mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. Minor trophies are nice, but they are ultimately just bonuses for a club like United. I'd rather keep moving in the right direction when it comes to the big things, than to stagnate completely and pick up the occasional domestic cup.

 

[Tom Cato]

For my 5000th post - I post this image

 

[crossy1686]

But he didnt, It is not like he has been here for a short time , he is entering his 4th season. He did not take a small team from the 2nd division and try to rebuild it. He took over a squad finished with 82 points 6 months before his arrival. This "process" or "project" or whatever you want to call it must have a time limit.

But you're more than aware that we have a fresh chance to win something every season, so WHEN he does win a trophy in the next season or so how will your argument stack up then? But I guess you'd rather hit eject on the progress made so far if he doesn't win a league cup this season? Take us back to the Jose years where everyone hates the squad, we waste money on shit players and the club's a mess after two windows.

 

[Womp]

I'll never not be amazed that we're having angry discussions about the manager being incompetent while sitting #1 in the Premier League

What is so hard to understand about this? We were first for a while last season too but the concerns many of us had - that the football being played wasn't sustainable to maintain a proper challenge, turned out to be true. Are we just supposed to shove our heads in the sand and pretend that everything is all good purely based on our position in the league a whole 4 games into the season?

He's obviously started the season well results wise, but some of us are still seeing the same issues that have plagued the team since he has come in. Whether or not he can figure it out as the season goes is anyone's guess, but suggesting we shouldn't be critical of him purely because of the position in the league at this stage of the season is silly.

 

[Tom Cato]

What is so hard to understand about this? We were first for a while last season too but the concerns many of us had - that the football being played wasn't sustainable to maintain a proper challenge, turned out to be true. Are we just supposed to shove our heads in the sand and pretend that everything is all good purely based on our position in the league a whole 4 games into the season?

He's obviously started the season well results wise, but some of us are still seeing the same issues that have plagued the team since he has come in. Whether or not he can figure it out as the season goes is anyone's guess, but suggesting we shouldn't be critical of him purely because of the position in the league at this stage of the season is silly.

 

[anant]

What is so hard to understand about this? We were first for a while last season too but the concerns many of us had - that the football being played wasn't sustainable to maintain a proper challenge, turned out to be true. Are we just supposed to shove our heads in the sand and pretend that everything is all good purely based on our position in the league a whole 4 games into the season?

He's obviously started the season well results wise, but some of us are still seeing the same issues that have plagued the team since he has come in. Whether or not he can figure it out as the season goes is anyone's guess, but suggesting we shouldn't be critical of him purely because of the position in the league at this stage of the season is silly.

True, but remind me again were people expecting us to finish 1st last season? Hell, I'd say we had done pretty well to even be in that position as I doubt even the most optimistic of supporters here expected us to be 1st in January

 

[Bilbo]

What is so hard to understand about this? We were first for a while last season too but the concerns many of us had - that the football being played wasn't sustainable to maintain a proper challenge, turned out to be true. Are we just supposed to shove our heads in the sand and pretend that everything is all good purely based on our position in the league a whole 4 games into the season?

He's obviously started the season well results wise, but some of us are still seeing the same issues that have plagued the team since he has come in. Whether or not he can figure it out as the season goes is anyone's guess, but suggesting we shouldn't be critical of him purely because of the position in the league at this stage of the season is silly.

Critical is fine, but the general tone of this forum is vastly over-critical. It borders on a witch-hunt at times. Its possible to not be 100% happy with our style of play but still have a positive feeling about the clubs direction.

 

[Rojofiam]

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1436022154148073479.html

 

[Womp]

True, but remind me again were people expecting us to finish 1st last season? Hell, I'd say we had done pretty well to even be in that position as I doubt even the most optimistic of supporters here expected us to be 1st in January

I'm just saying - we've been in a similar position before and the same issues that I saw with the side are still prevalent, so the idea that just cause we are currently 1st, means he is exempt from criticism is ridiculous to me. There is still very much an argument to be made about whether or not the football we are playing is of a good enough standard to sustain a title challenge, so therefore people will continue to voice their concerns regardless of our position in the table a whole 4 games into the season.

 

[Womp]

Critical is fine, but the general tone of this forum is vastly over-critical. It borders on a witch-hunt at times. Its possible to not be 100% happy with our style of play but still have a positive feeling about the clubs direction.

I agree, even though I personally have wanted him gone, I do think the good he has done for the club isn't brought up enough. He's completely changed the level of the squad and made some very good signings. That being said though, I think both sides of the fence can be completely dismissive at times.

You have the people who want him gone at times refusing to acknowledge the positives and you have the ones who want him in refusing to acknowledge/being dismissive of the concerns. It just is what it is, I guess.

 

[Bilbo]

I agree, even though I personally have wanted him gone, I do think the good he has done for the club isn't brought up enough. He's completely changed the level of the squad and made some very good signings. That being said though, I think both sides of the fence can be completely dismissive at times.

You have the people who want him gone at times refusing to acknowledge the positives and you have the ones who want him in refusing to acknowledge/being dismissive of the concerns. It just is what it is, I guess.

You're right. Extremes on both sides. My biggest gripe is always the reaction after games. Win or lose its a bit of a sh*tshow and best avoided. Things tend to calm down after 24 hours

 

[Bobcat]

I don't think, that is correct. If anything, we could say, that we would have to expect outperforming our xG because this is based on average goal chances by all sorts of players while we have elite players that you would expect be above average. But this Greenwood example doesn't feel right to me. First I'd argue, that a lot of teams play with inverted wingers now so this should be factored in and second a shot like the goal against Wolves and before the first goal against Newcastle are low-chance-shots. A well packed box, a well positioned keeper who easily got the shot in Newcastles case but then having a blunder to let it go. A slight deflection on its way as well. The finish against Wolves was inch perfect, but still needed a bit of a deflection from the keeper to go in.

The xG system has flaws, no doubt about that. For example moves to promising positions where no shot results from or great crosses that just nobody goes for but it is way better than just shots on goal.


Agree with Varane, do not agree with the Pogba thing. Southhampton and Wolves match showed, that the known flaws are still there so he stays a bit of a risk out of possession as long as we don't come up with a way to compensate. His assists tally is awesome, no question about that, but he isn't a winger or offensive midfielder so I think, the number of assist shouldn't be the only thing to evaluate his contribution.


Yeah I have high hopes for Sancho as well. Hopefully the focus on Ronaldo can take away a bit of the pressure I feel he plays with. It is early days though, hopefully he will come good. Against Newcastle, he had some good moves with Shaw, we really have to built on that.


Absolutely and I think, this is absolutely fine in the grand scheme of things. No question about Ole's approach leading to entertaining matches to watch. Maybe, what I said about it sounded more absolute than it should, my main concern is, that in my eyes a top team needs to be able to play to the occasion, meaning go for the throat when opportunity is there but be calm and keep the ball, when you have to. Our "fast-and-direct" approach is nice but when we are struggling in midfield or in controlling the game or when the opponent is building momentum, it would be better to be able to keep the ball for longer periods of time as another tool to get results.

I also think, this is a natural evolution - opponents will approach teams who are good in quick transitions by not giving them opportunities for quick transitions. An evolution is needed to a more possession oriented style while maintaining the ability to transition quickly.

Very few players are as two footed as Greenwood is though. Inverted wingers are indeed more popular than they were 20 years ago, but i still maintin that as far as xG goes, Greenwood is going to keep having a unaturally high ratio there because of his ability to finish so well with both feet

Regarding Pogba i think he has all the tools to be an excellent deep playmaker, he just lacks a bit of positional discipline and experience. Also keep in mind that large parts of last season he was in terrible form, so it does not paint a fair picture imo of his ability to play that position. Also, vs Wolves he wanst the big problem, the problem was Fred who got absoloutely bullied by Traore and who's had a rotten start to the season. Right now i'd say McTomminay/Fred adds more defensive security than Pogba does, no doubt, but at the same time Pogba has shown on several occations he can be solid defensively if he wants to. Very few midfielder posess as much speed and upper body strength as he does, so if he uses it correctly hes going to be really hard to get past

Sancho and Ronaldo are also going to help us beat low blocks. Sancho brings a bit more trickery and finesse than Rashford does, who is much better against teams who press high and Ronaldo will no doubt add a big threat inside the box which we have been lacking

Theres been a lot of talk about Ole needing to do something different regarding tactics and the coaches not doing a good enough job. And there is merit to that, i just think that additonally we've been lacking the personel to play they way we want, but with this years window we are much closer to that goal

 

[Bebestation]

Very few players are as two footed as Greenwood is though. Inverted wingers are indeed more popular than they were 20 years ago, but i still maintin that as far as xG goes, Greenwood is going to keep having a unaturally high ratio there because of his ability to finish so well with both feet

Regarding Pogba i think he has all the tools to be an excellent deep playmaker, he just lacks a bit of positional discipline and experience. Also keep in mind that large parts of last season he was in terrible form, so it does not paint a fair picture imo of his ability to play that position. Also, vs Wolves he wanst the big problem, the problem was Fred who got absoloutely bullied by Traore and who's had a rotten start to the season. Right now i'd say McTomminay/Fred adds more defensive security than Pogba does, no doubt, but at the same time Pogba has shown on several occations he can be solid defensively if he wants to. Very few midfielder posess as much speed and upper body strength as he does, so if he uses it correctly hes going to be really hard to get past

Sancho and Ronaldo are also going to help us beat low blocks. Sancho brings a bit more trickery and finesse than Rashford does, who is much better against teams who press high and Ronaldo will no doubt add a big threat inside the box which we have been lacking

Theres been a lot of talk about Ole needing to do something different regarding tactics and the coaches not doing a good enough job. And there is merit to that, i just think that additonally we've been lacking the personel to play they way we want, but with this years window we are much closer to that goal

Hmm.

You have me wondering now what Pogba might play like when he looses a bit of pace or power in his game.

He might have to play a bit deeper and slower and have to play more intelligently almost by force.

 

[Giggsyking]

But you're more than aware that we have a fresh chance to win something every season, so WHEN he does win a trophy in the next season or so how will your argument stack up then? But I guess you'd rather hit eject on the progress made so far if he doesn't win a league cup this season? Take us back to the Jose years where everyone hates the squad, we waste money on shit players and the club's a mess after two windows.

I would never want a Jose personality in our team. I hated every minute under Jose's time. The team is more enjoyable now and Ole has built a team that looks like a real Manchester united team. Ole is the perfect personality for the team, his problem is his coaching knowledge and achievements. If he fails to win a big trophy this season, questions must be asked.

 

[lysglimt]

I guess we will never find a definitive answer on that question. And I think, maybe that is where our biases come into play as well - me seeing other teams and what they do with lesser players and coming to the conclusion it is our "system" and you seeing it as having not the right players while the manager is free of charge. I respect that but it is wildly unconvincing to me.

Regarding EL final: Ole could have had an impact sub, had he decided to not put Pogba and Rashford in the starting eleven. One of them could have been on the bench to make an impact later on. Likewise he could have gone for Villareals throat from the get-go, having all the firepower available on the pitch, blitz them and then defend the rest of the 90min. So there were possibilities, this isn't Real Madrid or Inter Mailand we are talking about - it was Villareal.

Having an impulse is not only getting on a sub, don't get me wrong, I don't even have that big of grudge because of a match lost on penalties. What hurts was us seemingly not even trying to find a way to overcome Emery's game plan. A plan that wasn't unexpected at all but could have been expected and prepared for somehow.

United made errors tactically against Villareal - no doubt. But when you look at our bench in that game - there really wasnt anything there. Maguire was injured. Williams, Grant, Henderson, Mata, Fred, Diallo, James, Telles, Matic. v.d Beek and Tuanzebe.

Yes he could have left Pogba and Rashford - but what should we have used instead ? Matic and James. Imagine the criticism if we started with those two rather than Pogba and Rashford. But regardless - we wont have this problem this season because now we have 2-3 very good back-ups

 

[Mickson]

United made errors tactically against Villareal - no doubt. But when you look at our bench in that game - there really wasnt anything there. Maguire was injured. Williams, Grant, Henderson, Mata, Fred, Diallo, James, Telles, Matic. v.d Beek and Tuanzebe.

Yes he could have left Pogba and Rashford - but what should we have used instead ? Matic and James. Imagine the criticism if we started with those two rather than Pogba and Rashford. But regardless - we wont have this problem this season because now we have 2-3 very good back-ups

Did Villarreal have a better bench? Not sure why this is a discussion. I remember reading afterward that our bench cost more than their whole squad. We had no excuses in that game, even though I agree that our bench wasn't great, I'm sure Emery didn't think his bench was exceptional either.

 

[OleBoiii]

It's not like Villarreal outplayed us or anything. They parked the bus for 120 minutes and we still failed to score more goals than them. The loss is easily as much down to the players as the coach. The same thing(90 minutes instead of 120) happens on a monthly basis to at least one other top team. It's not crazy to lose to an experienced cup team and coach from La Liga. It's not like we played a Championship side that had miraculously fought their way to a final through an underdog story of the ages. Villarreal were probably expected to minimum reach the semi-finals.

 

[AjaxCunian]

It's not like Villarreal outplayed us or anything. They parked the bus for 120 minutes and we still failed to score more goals than them. The loss is easily as much down to the players as the coach. The same thing(90 minutes instead of 120) happens on a monthly basis to at least one other top team. It's not crazy to lose to an experienced cup team and coach from La Liga. It's not like we played a Championship side that had miraculously fought their way to a final through an underdog story of the ages. Villarreal were probably expected to minimum reach the semi-finals.

Is this true? Our expected goals were very similar, similar number of shots and similar number of (big) chances created. We had 60% to their 40.

We were the side that were on the ball more but we barely did anything with it and were very poor, Ole didnt make substitutions early enough and he didnt make the substitution he should have, that was to take de Gea off.

A healthy Bayern, City, Liverpool definitely do win these matches more than we do, it wasnt bad luck. Their pressing game is much better, they dare to have players high on the pitch and players play between the lines all the time.

 

[OleBoiii]

@AjaxCunian

I didn't claim that we dominated them. We were the better team(ever so slightly), though. Our main issue, as you said, was to break through their defensive wall. That stuff happens to good teams all the time. We usually win these games. It didn't happen this time, just as it doesn't always happen for Klopp or Pep.

But I've had this discussion a million times before, so I'm not gonna fall down this particular rabbit hole again. I'll summarise by saying what I've always said: it was a disappointing game and arguably the biggest stain on Ole's United career so far. But people in here also overreacted. They're desperately clinging to that one game as evidence that Ole isn't good enough and also severely underrating Villarreal, which I think is ridiculous.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Fair point. Overall I like the job Ole has done, but the collapse of Martial is a mystery.

A real mystery. Makes me think that he can turn it around... But we have such strong options that it might not be worth giving him those opportunities

 

[Strelok]

A healthy Bayern, City, Liverpool definitely do win these matches more than we do

This is a bit of assumption imo. I was of the opinion that we lost to an average team that match. But after watching them against Chelsea I know I was wrong. They're no joke.

 

[AjaxCunian]

@AjaxCunian

I didn't claim that we dominated them. We were the better team(ever so slightly), though. Our main issue, as you said, was to break through their defensive wall. That stuff happens to good teams all the time. We usually win these games. It didn't happen this time, just as it doesn't always happen for Klopp or Pep.

But I've had this discussion a million times before, so I'm not gonna fall down this particular rabbit hole again. I'll summarise by saying what I've always said: it was a disappointing game and arguably the biggest stain on Ole's United career so far. But people in here also overreacted. They're desperately clinging to that one game as evidence that Ole isn't good enough and also severely underrating Villarreal, which I think is ridiculous.

But those team that we are competing with, handle these games significantly better than we do is the argument I think most people make. Hence why they have been winning titles and CL's, accumulating higher point tallies etc. It happens more often for Pep and Klopp typically than Ole, they also have coached a much better answer for it than we have I'd say.

I agree with you, but it was also after a shocking series of semi final losses, which makes it not seem so much as a one off. We have been on the losing end of far too many important matches (not big but important as in CL knockout, semi finals, finals, qualifying to the knock outs).We've had some good ones too, PSG away was the absolute high, clinching 3rd in 2020/2021 for example, but Leipzig and Istanbul were complete downs for examples. Ole has actually been here for some time now to not reduce these things as one-offs.

Villareal is a good side but nothing great, we have a much stronger bench, a stronger XI, far more budget and their manager was only the failed Emery. United were heavy heavy favourites and gave it away, by a poor performance from the players, some poor in-game decisions from Ole too.

Chelsea had their hands full with them though, Tuchel made a good decision to take off his keeper that is poor with penalties, that probably made it worse.

 

[AjaxCunian]

This is a bit of assumption imo. I was of the opinion that we lost to an average team that match. But after watching them against Chelsea I know I was wrong. They're no joke.

It's an assumption that those teams win more matches than us vs teams that park the bus under normal circumstances?

The fact that we have not come close to their best seasons kinda shows it doesnt it.

Personally I dont think Chelsea is that great, really our level. I think a fit and healthy Liverpool and City are much better, City does miss a striker.

 

[Raven]

Few issues about this that I need to comment on.

This would be correct if the premise I was presenting was that great players were needed to win trophies, which I wasn't. I agree with you that great players are needed to win silverware but you could see the football that was being played by Liverpool and City before they improved the quality of the squads. That is the point here.



The team Klopp inherited was far worse than the one Ole inherited, to start. Secondly, the football they were going to implement was made evident quite early. Quick ball movements, the high intensity running and pressing etc. Even though he didn't have the players to win silverware - you were seeing what he was trying to implement. He was improving the collective of the squad. Also commenting on his spending considering how wank that Liverpool squad was, especially when Ole has spent more and achieved less in the same time makes no sense to me.



I agree, great players are required to win trophies consistently. Once again though, you don't need a World class player in every position to implement a sustainable and progressive style of football. That level of coaching is what's required in the EPL these days, considering the level of the managers competing. Also Liverpool had more than one injury, they were extremely unlucky with injuries, lost multiple first team players and finished a whole 5 points behind us. Hardly 'falling off without a trace'.



Sorry but I think this is rubbish. I agree that managers like Ole, Zidane etc. that are good at man management can get a tune out of a squad - that's never been argued. The difference is with progressive coaches that can improve the collective of the squad. Claiming it's purely down to the players is ridiculous. It's really no surprise that Pep can get players playing to ridiculous levels, that Tuchel improved a defence immensely without signing any players.

If it's purely down to the players, once again, what exactly is the purpose of coaching staff?

Also the word you're probably looking for is pragmatic. That's what Ole, Zizou etc. is. They're very good at it too. Players are on board, I completely agree in that regard. I'm just not convinced like some on here that that's going to be enough. We are competing with teams that are just as talented and probably always will be just as talented given their resources so the difference comes down to how many said managers or coaches can improve their players through the system they implement.

Didn't Brendan Rodgers only bottle the league by a whisker like a year before Klopp came in?

 

[Strelok]

It's an assumption that those teams win more matches than us vs teams that park the bus under normal circumstances?

The fact that we have not come close to their best seasons kinda shows it doesnt it.

Personally I dont think Chelsea is that great, really our level. I think a fit and healthy Liverpool and City are much better, City does miss a striker.

My bad. I thought you were saying such teams would win against Villarreal by default.

 

[Womp]

Didn't Brendan Rodgers only bottle the league by a whisker like a year before Klopp came in?

The team he inherited had lost Suarez, Sterling etc. It was an extremely underwhelming squad. Players like Mignolet, Clyne, Skrtel, Sakho, Moreno, Lucas and Origi were all first 11 or regulars in the side.