Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[RUCK4444]

Yeah if a

It does in theory make it tougher (though am not personally convinced Grealish is one of the best in the league just yet, very good player though he is) but that's not how it always turns out and also, Ole's not exactly managing Southampton and expecting to compete is he? He's at the biggest club in England and has just signed Varane and Sancho.

As stated previously it can be done. United bought Veron and Ruud in 01-02 and finished third that season to Arsenal and Liverpool. Jose bought Ballack and Shevchenko in 06-07 and finished second (we bought Carrick). We'll have to wait and see how it turns out but anything less than a decent title challenge and a trophy is a disappointment and questions probably should be asked.

Yeah I think we mostly agree because I’m hoping to see a real challenge and ideally a cup.

I just think we’ve closed the gap on one hand with the signings we’ve made but they’ve gone and opened the gap again with these two.

 

[NZT-One]

More experienced managers than Ole, all of whom many people would argue were more "deserving" of the job haven't done as well as Ole in the role while he was learning on the job.

...

I genuinely have never seen anything like it. Far bigger managers have gotten far more slack than Ole does with some people both on here and on social media.

But isn't that sort of the essence of the conflict? You say, he is the best of what we had since Fergie, lets keep him. Others say, he is the least bad one of the ones we had - lets not stick with him at all costs possible.

Both have their merits but as it has been said, our competitors have great squads and a great manager. That means, if there would be a point in time, where a great manager is available, should we pass, because we have Ole?

For this season, the question is out of the window anyway. I am very happy that he seemingly adressed the issue with lack of organization at set pieces by bringing in a coach. Better late than never.
It also seems that he is trying to release our players a bit more to be more adventurous with quick interplay and more direct passes. Lets see, how it translates to the season.

He’ll go further in the CL and push on in the league but we are still a top class striker and intelligent baller in the middle away from being a really top notch outfit with the tools to go toe to toe with anybody. We will still be playing on the counter against City for example.

Waiting for the perfect squad doesn't make sense. Players age and their form changes, waiting for the perfectly assembled squad is way too risky because great players turn not so great at some point. Apart from that - last seasons bigges failures haven't been because other teams had more perfect teams than we did:

- we crashed UCL because we were not able to get a point out of two games against Leipzig and a Turkish side that finished like 12th in their league...
- we lost top of the league by losing points against bottom of the table teams that we just wasted to much time not attacking them properly...
- we lost out in a European final, because we didn't manage to score more than one goal in 120min against Villareal, when Villareal were dead on their feet after 70min more or less...



Points and league positions and titles, all fine metrics with pros and cons for each. For me,
- I want us to win 90% of the games we are expected to win by squad quality (looking at starting eleven plus players available in context of schedule and meaning of the game)
- I want us to win a at least half of matches against equal opposition (looking at starting eleven plus players available in context of schedule and meaning of the game)
- I want to see some progress regarding the football we play especially the intensity and urgency
- I want to see mistakes or issues being addressed and dealed with as good as possible (in game, between games, taking players out that don't deliver)
- I want to have the feeling that we maximize the ability of the individual players and the team as a whole as much as possible
- I hope, we focus on giving minutes to young players instead of wasting big chunks of them on the elderly

This should result in a trophy and a good league finish at least and even if not, I wouldn't say the bridge is burned as long as I look at my list and have most of them checked.

Preseason made be very optimistic and I am pretty much looking forward to the season. It should be a great campaign, with potentially awesome competition, to achieve something will be great for Uniteds slightly damaged reputation in the world and could be big boost for Ole as a manager. And he will deserve it, if he manages to be successful.

 

[anant]

But isn't that sort of the essence of the conflict? You say, he is the best of what we had since Fergie, lets keep him. Others say, he is the least bad one of the ones we had - lets not stick with him at all costs possible.

Both have their merits but as it has been said, our competitors have great squads and a great manager. That means, if there would be a point in time, where a great manager is available, should we pass, because we have Ole?

For this season, the question is out of the window anyway. I am very happy that he seemingly adressed the issue with lack of organization at set pieces by bringing in a coach. Better late than never.
It also seems that he is trying to release our players a bit more to be more adventurous with quick interplay and more direct passes. Lets see, how it translates to the season.

Because managerial appointments do not all lead to success. A few people on here were rooting for us to lose under LVG so that we can hire Mou - a better manager, and I don't think it took us anywhere.

I'm not saying LVG should have been retained, but firing a manager who's doing a decent job because we think x is a better and can do a better job is a risky proposition. Hell, if we go back 12 months, a lot on here wanted Ole sacked first for Hassenhuttl, then Poch, then Rodgers. Hassenhuttl's stock has never been lower, Poch failed to win Ligue 1 with PSG and Rodgers slipped out of top 4 once again.

Mind, I rate all of these managers, but none of them as good as Pep or Klopp, and caf's argument in 6 months would be "Can they beat Pep/Klopp? If the answer is no, let them go". Hell, we know this right now as well. Why hire another manager, who'd build his side according to his needs, only for us to get bored of him and throw him away.

Secondly, the issue is the scrutiny that we apply on Ole's decisions, if we apply to any other manager, I'm quite certain that every manager in the world bar maybe Pep, will be termed a failure. Conte - his CL record, Klopp- opposition that has defeated Pool in cup competitions, etc.

Waiting for the perfect squad doesn't make sense. Players age and their form changes, waiting for the perfectly assembled squad is way too risky because great players turn not so great at some point. Apart from that - last seasons bigges failures haven't been because other teams had more perfect teams than we did:

- we crashed UCL because we were not able to get a point out of two games against Leipzig and a Turkish side that finished like 12th in their league...
- we lost top of the league by losing points against bottom of the table teams that we just wasted to much time not attacking them properly...
- we lost out in a European final, because we didn't manage to score more than one goal in 120min against Villareal, when Villareal were dead on their feet after 70min more or less...

-The last 2 games were PSG and Leipzig FYI.
-Were we expected to be top of the league in Jan? Were we having a squad that could sustain the level of performances? And before you say, "But we lost to SHU", we weren't the only club that dropped points to a team that would eventually get relegated. Chelsea dropped 4 vs WBA, Fulham beat Pool, WBA drew vs City
- One off game. By that logic, Chelsea fecked up by losing to Leicester in FA Cup final as well.

Points and league positions and titles, all fine metrics with pros and cons for each. For me,
- I want us to win 90% of the games we are expected to win by squad quality (looking at starting eleven plus players available in context of schedule and meaning of the game)
- I want us to win a at least half of matches against equal opposition (looking at starting eleven plus players available in context of schedule and meaning of the game)
- I want to see some progress regarding the football we play especially the intensity and urgency
- I want to see mistakes or issues being addressed and dealed with as good as possible (in game, between games, taking players out that don't deliver)
- I want to have the feeling that we maximize the ability of the individual players and the team as a whole as much as possible
- I hope, we focus on giving minutes to young players instead of wasting big chunks of them on the elderly

This should result in a trophy and a good league finish at least and even if not, I wouldn't say the bridge is burned as long as I look at my list and have most of them checked.

Preseason made be very optimistic and I am pretty much looking forward to the season. It should be a great campaign, with potentially awesome competition, to achieve something will be great for Uniteds slightly damaged reputation in the world and could be big boost for Ole as a manager. And he will deserve it, if he manages to be successful.

WIll just talk about the 1st 2 points here as others are completely subjective and we won't end up anywhere
- So, win 90% of games against all teams bar City, Chelsea and Pool - 29 wins from 32 games
- against big 4, 2 wins out of 6 (Chelsea and Pool being equal and City being better)

That's 93 points (assuming none of our games end in a draw). Do you think your expectations are realistic?

Let's apply the same rule to City. City are better than every side in the league. Maybe, you can say that Chelsea are equal in terms of depth. So, you expect them to win 34/36 games against worse opposition and 1 game vs Chelsea. That's 105 points. How many teams have ever gone on to achieve that points tally?

 

[OleBoiii]

- I want us to win 90% of the games we are expected to win by squad quality
- I want us to win a at least half of matches against equal opposition

It would be nice if people tried to do some quick math before setting these standards.

Like @anant wrote, that means that you expect minimum 93 points! 96 points if you think City are equal to us(some posters in here seem to think that).

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

I have no idea where to make this observation but is anyone concerned or confused why we aren’t lightening the squad numbers a bit more. I don’t think we’ve sold anybody yet and barely done any loans with the season starting tomorrow. Ole has done a good job in his tenure of getting rid of deadwood but starting to feel like we’re bloating out again with players who shouldn’t or will barely get a kick this season still being around. Players like Lingard, Jones, Mata, Diallo, Williams, Mengi, Matic, Pereira. All very odd.

 

[Ole's screen]

Both sides are a cult. Don’t get drawn into it.

Ole has done alright. He’s made the team likeable again, improved league performances & given us our strongest squad post Fergie, whilst also making some baffling decisions & struggling to win when it really matters. I give him a C so far. I will never understand his adoration of McTominay.

C is very harsh indeed. I think he’s done a B+ job at worst. Think where we were when he joined to where we are now. It’s night and day and it’s almost all solely down to him. It’s basically been the next best thing to having SAF back.

 

[Steve 007]

The reason we are 8-1 is because the pundits can’t get their head around Ole, no pedigree bla bla bla.

Tuchel managed in Germany for 7 years and won one cup with Dortmund and finished second one year. He was sacked from PSG as he was second in a one horse race.

Klopp came with great pedigree having won two titles in Germany, his league record at Liverpool is 8th, 4th, 4th, 2nd, 1st, 3rd. 1 championship in 6 years. Though he did win a European cup and finish very close. He has spent £512 million to achieve this. Apart from two seasons where he won 71% of Liverpool’s games, his win percentage is around the same as Ole’s around 55%.
My point is that Ole has done well, Klopp would have got sacked by many on here and Liverpool might still be waited for their first PL title.

If he has a bad season now he’s built this squad then someone should come in and takeover but for the first time since Fergie’s days I’m genuinely intrigued and excited by how far we can go. Come on Ole.

 

[redrobed]

Big Ole fan but I will be needing silverware this season. No ifs, buts or maybes.

 

[soapythecat]

Is it too early for a ‘Sack watch’ thread?

The club’s spending means Ole has to win something this season. The league will be much stronger with Chelsea and Liverpool at full strength from the start. We are still way off City.

 

[justsomebloke]

But isn't that sort of the essence of the conflict? You say, he is the best of what we had since Fergie, lets keep him. Others say, he is the least bad one of the ones we had - lets not stick with him at all costs possible.

Both have their merits but as it has been said, our competitors have great squads and a great manager. That means, if there would be a point in time, where a great manager is available, should we pass, because we have Ole?

I don't think either of them has merit. Because they're both based on the notion that I as a fan should form a judgment on how "good" Ole is, and then ask myself whether that's good enough. Which is a mug's game. What matters is what happens. And what happens is that the club has been getting steadily better and is now much, much closer to being a title contender than it has ever been post-SAF. And this is being accomplished not at the expense of the club's longer term prospects, but in a way that enhances them. A manager who achieves that is doing a good job, regardless of how "good" you or anyone else thinks he is.

 

[romufc]

Is it too early for a ‘Sack watch’ thread?

The club’s spending means Ole has to win something this season. The league will be much stronger with Chelsea and Liverpool at full strength from the start. We are still way off City.

Ole outer's starting early this season.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

The reason we are 8-1 is because the pundits can’t get their head around Ole, no pedigree bla bla bla.

Tuchel managed in Germany for 7 years and won one cup with Dortmund and finished second one year. He was sacked from PSG as he was second in a one horse race.

Klopp came with great pedigree having won two titles in Germany, his league record at Liverpool is 8th, 4th, 4th, 2nd, 1st, 3rd. 1 championship in 6 years. Though he did win a European cup and finish very close. He has spent £512 million to achieve this. Apart from two seasons where he won 71% of Liverpool’s games, his win percentage is around the same as Ole’s around 55%.
My point is that Ole has done well, Klopp would have got sacked by many on here and Liverpool might still be waited for their first PL title.

If he has a bad season now he’s built this squad then someone should come in and takeover but for the first time since Fergie’s days I’m genuinely intrigued and excited by how far we can go. Come on Ole.

The pundits don’t set the odds. The odds follow the punters. The reason we’re still 8-1 is not that many people are betting on us.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

The pundits don’t set the odds. The odds follow the punters. The reason we’re still 8-1 is not that many people are betting on us.

Yup as shown by the fact that a lot of pundits are predicting Chelsea to win the league but yet they are 9/2 as well

 

[altodevil]

I don't think either of them has merit. Because they're both based on the notion that I as a fan should form a judgment on how "good" Ole is, and then ask myself whether that's good enough. Which is a mug's game. What matters is what happens. And what happens is that the club has been getting steadily better and is now much, much closer to being a title contender than it has ever been post-SAF. And this is being accomplished not at the expense of the club's longer term prospects, but in a way that enhances them. A manager who achieves that is doing a good job, regardless of how "good" you or anyone else thinks he is.

What about if I told you I despise with all my heart Manchester united

 

[Ole's screen]

What about if I told you I despise with all my heart Manchester united

Then yeah you should want us to fire Ole and continue the manager merry go round.

 

[Bilbo]

I don't think either of them has merit. Because they're both based on the notion that I as a fan should form a judgment on how "good" Ole is, and then ask myself whether that's good enough. Which is a mug's game. What matters is what happens. And what happens is that the club has been getting steadily better and is now much, much closer to being a title contender than it has ever been post-SAF. And this is being accomplished not at the expense of the club's longer term prospects, but in a way that enhances them. A manager who achieves that is doing a good job, regardless of how "good" you or anyone else thinks he is.

Agree with this, and it reminds me of a post I wrote last season regarding how many people still take for granted most of the good things that Ole has done for the club and can't bring themselves to give him the level of credit he deserves because of who he is and how he is still perceived.

People still look at this and say 'good man manager, good signings have been made, the squad looks several levels above what it did 3 years ago and there is a better mood around the club, but tactically I'm not yet convinced so we should bring in a manager that we think is better tactically'. Its easy to see how people could reach that conclusion, but its far too simplistic. Using that logic it looks like their way cannot lead to anything other than an overall improvement, but where that falls down is in automatically assuming that 'manager X', who they think is better tactically, would also have made the same choices and will continue to make the same choices as our current manager has that has led to improvements in all other departments.

What makes that position so strange is that, as United fans, we've had very recent and very strong exposure to the damage that is caused when managers don't make the right choices. We have had disastrous signings & we have had a bad atmosphere around the club. We've had players who obviously don't want to be here. We've even had managers who obviously don't really want to be here. We've seen how that can negatively affect the club not just during that period but also for the future. Ultimately, its far easier to cock this job up than it is to get it right, and right now we have a manager who is delivering consistent progress in almost every possible way and yet so many people are still looking enviously at other clubs, or the latest flavour of the month manager and they wouldn't hesitate to make that change. Its monstrously short-sighted in my opinion and a reckless gamble that this club simply don't need to take, or even be considering right now.

 

[Andrew7582]

The reason we are 8-1 is because the pundits can’t get their head around Ole, no pedigree bla bla bla.

Tuchel managed in Germany for 7 years and won one cup with Dortmund and finished second one year. He was sacked from PSG as he was second in a one horse race.

Klopp came with great pedigree having won two titles in Germany, his league record at Liverpool is 8th, 4th, 4th, 2nd, 1st, 3rd. 1 championship in 6 years. Though he did win a European cup and finish very close. He has spent £512 million to achieve this. Apart from two seasons where he won 71% of Liverpool’s games, his win percentage is around the same as Ole’s around 55%.
My point is that Ole has done well, Klopp would have got sacked by many on here and Liverpool might still be waited for their first PL title.

If he has a bad season now he’s built this squad then someone should come in and takeover but for the first time since Fergie’s days I’m genuinely intrigued and excited by how far we can go. Come on Ole.

Your assessment of Klopp's time at Liverpool is ridiculous, he has got them to two CL finals, and the season they finished second they achieved 97 points, to not win the league with a points tally like that is absurd. When Ole achieves a 90+ point season like Klopp has done twice, and wins the CL, then you can compare him with Klopp.

 

[Foxbatt]

He has done many positive things. But is that good enough to keep him if he doesn't win the PL or CL?
This is his third year now. This is the biggest club in the world.

 

[OleBoiii]

Your assessment of Klopp's time at Liverpool is ridiculous

Liverpool didn't become competitive until Klopp's 4th season in charge. He took over the team in the beginning of October as well, so he basically spent 3 full seasons building his team.

If Ole hasn't won a major trophy 2 years from now, then I will agree that the comparisons are unfair. But as things stand now, Ole hasn't done a worse job for United than Klopp did for Liverpool at the same stage(2.5 years into the job). And Klopp is considered the best or second best manager in the game who is still managing.

If the (possibly) best manager in the game can spend 4 years before winning a major trophy, despite the PL being in a weak period for the first 2-3 years and the transfer market being significantly less bonkers, then it goes to show that it's not as easy as some posters in here seem to think. Ole inherited chaos mid-season, was very unlucky with injuries in his first full season and joined during a time where confidently breaking 90 points is the new standard for winning the league. Oh, and he had to pay a fortune for players like AWB and Maguire. Had he arrived 2 year earlier then they would have been almost half the price.

 

[JFedic]

He has done many positive things. But is that good enough to keep him if he doesn't win the PL or CL?
This is his third year now. This is the biggest club in the world.

Unfortunately I don't see how we can realistically be expected to compete with Man City. We don't have two elite first 11's to bring out.

 

[U99ted]

But as things stand now, Ole hasn't done a worse job for United than Klopp did for Liverpool at the same stage(2.5 years into the job).

I’m not against Ole, but I have to disagree. Klopp reached the Champions League final in his 2nd full season in charge. And they were an average team at the start of 15/16, having finished 6th under Rodgers in 14/15.

 

[Andrew7582]

Liverpool didn't become competitive until Klopp's 4th season in charge. He took over the team in the beginning of October as well, so he basically spent 3 full seasons building his team.

If Ole hasn't won a major trophy 2 years from now, then I will agree that the comparisons are unfair. But as things stand now, Ole hasn't done a worse job for United than Klopp did for Liverpool at the same stage(2.5 years into the job). And Klopp is considered the best or second best manager in the game who is still managing.

If the (possibly) best manager in the game can spend 4 years before winning a major trophy, despite the PL being in a weak period for the first 2-3 years and the transfer market being significantly less bonkers, then it goes to show that it's not as easy as some posters in here seem to think. Ole inherited chaos mid-season, was very unlucky with injuries in his first full season and joined during a time where confidently breaking 90 points is the new standard for winning the league. Oh, and he had to pay a fortune for players like AWB and Maguire. Had he arrived 2 year earlier then they would have been almost half the price.

Taking over in October when the team is in a mess isn't a full season, you don't get the summer window to sell or buy anyone, and you don't get pre season to work on tactics or team chemistry, please try to be honest in your arguments instead of stretching the truth. Liverpool reached the CL final in Klopp's second full season, Ole failed to get through the group stage in his second season. So yes, Ole has done a worse job at the same stage, reaching the CL final trumps failing to get out of the group stage.

Ole didn't have to spend £50 million on AWB either, that was a very overpriced deal. He could have gone for a more economical alternative, AWB is no world beater and hasn't justified the massive fee. Ole could have got Tripper for half the fee, who he has now decided he does want 2 years later!

 

[OleBoiii]

I’m not against Ole, but I have to disagree. Klopp reached the Champions League final in his 2nd full season in charge.

Ok, I have 3 issues with this:

1. So aggregated cup results matter now, even if they don't lead to trophies? If so, then Ole is a pretty decent cup manager overall.

2. Liverpool had a super-easy group and not a particularly hard route to the final in the knockout stages. City was their biggest challenge, and we all know how Pep's teams do in the CL

3. If I'm not mistaken, Liverpool had played 6 or 7 games when Klopp took over. While I agree that a summer transfer window matters a lot, he still had a lot of time to get to know the team and steady the ship before May. To completely disregard his first season is a bit unfair.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

Not sure how the Klopp comparisons are still a thing, something that doesn't exist in the real world like those Martial over Kane shouts previously

 

[OleBoiii]

Taking over in October when the team is in a mess isn't a full season, you don't get the summer window to sell or buy anyone, and you don't get pre season to work on tactics or team chemistry, please try to be honest in your arguments instead of stretching the truth. Liverpool reached the CL final in Klopp's second full season, Ole failed to get through the group stage in his second season. So yes, Ole has done a worse job at the same stage, reaching the CL final trumps failing to get out of the group stage.

See my reply to the other guy.

Even if we scratch the entirety of his first season, which probably consist of close to 50 games, it still doesn't change the fact that it took him 3 full seasons to win a major trophy(or any trophy for that matter). I know that the Caf has a massive hard-on for finishing 2nd in the CL(see the Pochettino thread for reference), but it doesn't result in a major trophy.

Ole didn't have to spend £50 million on AWB either, that was a very overpriced deal.

Ole doesn't decide the price. AWB is very similar to Shaw in terms of profile(promising young English fullback from a midtable PL team), yet he cost roughly twice as much. Why? Because the market went inside somewhere between 2017 and 2018. It's not "natural inflation" either. Players have been stupidly expensive for the last 3 years.

 

[Matriac]

Not sure how the Klopp comparisons are still a thing, something that doesn't exist in the real world like those Martial over Kane shouts previously

They exist because people keep saying:
"If he isn't as good as Pep or Klopp, then why should we keep him, we need someone as good as them to compete" while then disregarding that there currently isn't anyone else considered on the same level as them. The natural next step is some comparing how Klopp got to the point of being considered one of the best in the world.

 

[OleBoiii]

They exist because people keep saying:
"If he isn't as good as Pep or Klopp, then why should we keep him, we need someone as good as them to compete" while then disregarding that there currently isn't anyone else considered on the same level as them. The natural next step is some comparing how Klopp got to the point of being considered one of the best in the world.

Also, no one is really comparing Ole to Klopp overall. If we were, then it would be the shortest discussion in the world. Klopp has 4 major trophies, Ole has 0. Discussion over.

We're only comparing how they both performed in the beginning of their respective careers for Liverpool and United in roughly the same era. If people think that this is unreasonable, then they are biased beyond hope.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Not sure how the Klopp comparisons are still a thing, something that doesn't exist in the real world like those Martial over Kane shouts previously

They exist because the Ole-in crew have always used the comparison to say that it took Klopp 3 years to really get Liverpool purring. So this is essentially the season things are now expected of Ole - well going by those comparisons anyway - and people are rightfully bringing it up. I'm sure the goalposts will shift again though.

 

[U99ted]

1. So aggregated cup results matter now, even if they don't lead to trophies? If so, then Ole is a pretty decent cup manager overall.

Depends. From what I’ve seen, a lot of people would be happy with a title challenge this season even if we don’t go on to win the league. I’d be inclined to agree, as we’d be in serious contention for one of the biggest prizes. People don’t have a “hard on” for coming 2nd in the CL. They’d just be happy all things considered to be in serious contention for club football’s biggest prize. Much happier than going quite far in League Cup or Europa without winning any of them.

 

[justsomebloke]

He has done many positive things. But is that good enough to keep him if he doesn't win the PL or CL?
This is his third year now. This is the biggest club in the world.

The answer to that is that the view that a manager not winning the PL or CL in his third season is somehow an anomaly that constitutes a sackable offense, which a lot of people think, but which I for my part I think is completely mental. We've not won either of them for a decade. You can say "this is the biggest club in the world" as much as you like, but the reality is that it's a long time since we were a club of that quality. To me it's now about to getting back to being in that picture. Once we are, we can start thinking about how often we should be winning big titles again. The last decade is a write-off, where we didn't win these things and frankly weren't good enough that there was any reason why we would.

 

[HailtotheKing]

This year is going to be the closest in history I think. City and Chelsea are in front and Liverpool will be stronger. All I want from Ole is more points and better football. A trophy would be nice but I want to see a major improvement in how we play. And serious evidence that he has learned. That europa final was a car crash. If possible I would like to see the polar opposite. Real proof that he has a clear idea of how to manage from the touchline and impact games. A good man manager yes. Undoubtedly doing great things internally for the club. What I want to see next is him truly shaping the games from the bench. And that includes him properly using the bench. Regardless of anyone else, now that we have a good squad, he has no excuses in this department. No need to run players into the ground. And every reason to shake things up when his trusted players aren’t performing. Let’s see us properly go at teams, with passion and flair. We have the players. The question is, do we have the manager?

 

[NZT-One]

Because managerial appointments do not all lead to success. A few people on here were rooting for us to lose under LVG so that we can hire Mou - a better manager, and I don't think it took us anywhere.

I'm not saying LVG should have been retained, but firing a manager who's doing a decent job because we think x is a better and can do a better job is a risky proposition. Hell, if we go back 12 months, a lot on here wanted Ole sacked first for Hassenhuttl, then Poch, then Rodgers. Hassenhuttl's stock has never been lower, Poch failed to win Ligue 1 with PSG and Rodgers slipped out of top 4 once again.

Mind, I rate all of these managers, but none of them as good as Pep or Klopp, and caf's argument in 6 months would be "Can they beat Pep/Klopp? If the answer is no, let them go". Hell, we know this right now as well. Why hire another manager, who'd build his side according to his needs, only for us to get bored of him and throw him away.

Secondly, the issue is the scrutiny that we apply on Ole's decisions, if we apply to any other manager, I'm quite certain that every manager in the world bar maybe Pep, will be termed a failure. Conte - his CL record, Klopp- opposition that has defeated Pool in cup competitions, etc.

"A few people on here on here voted" so what? What does that mean? Nothing. I was against Mourinho because it was obvious we would have to face a switch in terms of how we play. So some guys on an internet forum put their money on the wrong horse and now? That means it is automatically the right choice to stick with the current horse? That doesn't seem to be rational to me at all. Mind, I am not asking to sack Ole because he did a good job. But if I want to see United be as competitive as possible, a "good job" might not be good enough.

And of course switching managers is a risky thing, again, thats why I am totally behind Ole as there are no obvious alternatives right now. But on the grand scheme of things, you have to do risky stuff to progress. If you know, something isn't working, it would be mad to stick with it because of being afraid that something else could end up not working is, again, irrational. And again - I am not saying that Ole is something that doesn't work. For me personally, I am still sceptical. If you guys aren't, I am happy for you. And I listen to you listing reasons to not be sceptical. But until today, I didn't find these reasons very convincing.

-The last 2 games were PSG and Leipzig FYI.
-Were we expected to be top of the league in Jan? Were we having a squad that could sustain the level of performances? And before you say, "But we lost to SHU", we weren't the only club that dropped points to a team that would eventually get relegated. Chelsea dropped 4 vs WBA, Fulham beat Pool, WBA drew vs City
- One off game. By that logic, Chelsea fecked up by losing to Leicester in FA Cup final as well.

My mistake. Apologies. But on the core, the point remains valid - we could have booked the progress in the group by beating the Turkish side, at least afaik.
I get somewhat tired of the argument about what we were expecting before the season. That doesn't mean anything. We were top of the table and we lost it due to bad performances against relatively weak teams. There is no denying it. What you expected is fine, but it was just theoretical. Practically, we were top of the table.

WIll just talk about the 1st 2 points here as others are completely subjective and we won't end up anywhere
- So, win 90% of games against all teams bar City, Chelsea and Pool - 29 wins from 32 games
- against big 4, 2 wins out of 6 (Chelsea and Pool being equal and City being better)

That's 93 points (assuming none of our games end in a draw). Do you think your expectations are realistic?

Maybe you misunderstood me and I made it not precise enough. I put this words in:
" (looking at starting eleven plus players available in context of schedule and meaning of the game) "

That includes dynamic changes that a season brings and looks game by game. If some diesease wipes most of the starting eleven away, a match against Everton will not be a match against worse opposition. A match against Watford in the Cup isn't a match against worse opposition, if we have an important league game coming up and rest most of the first team.

Is it still subjective? Of couse, I didn't say it wouldn't be. But to me, it makes way more sense than to decide on a certain league position or points amount because so many factors are involved in that.

 

[NZT-One]

It would be nice if people tried to do some quick math before setting these standards.

Like @anant wrote, that means that you expect minimum 93 points! 96 points if you think City are equal to us(some posters in here seem to think that).

I'd like other people to quote the actual things a person used and not just half of it.

 

[NZT-One]

I don't think either of them has merit. Because they're both based on the notion that I as a fan should form a judgment on how "good" Ole is, and then ask myself whether that's good enough. Which is a mug's game. What matters is what happens. And what happens is that the club has been getting steadily better and is now much, much closer to being a title contender than it has ever been post-SAF. And this is being accomplished not at the expense of the club's longer term prospects, but in a way that enhances them. A manager who achieves that is doing a good job, regardless of how "good" you or anyone else thinks he is.

Fully agree. And I am pretty sure, you will not find quotes where I say, Ole isn't doing a good job. What I say is, "doing a good job" might not be enough when our competitors have coaches who are "doing very good jobs". That shouldn't be debatable in my mind.

And I think our upward trend (I agree with that observation) isn't just connected with having Ole. He obviously has a huge share but we have some damn good players as well and last year, we have had a relatively easy ride in terms of competitors struggling and not a lot of injuries despite the schedule.

 

[Matriac]

I'd like other people to quote the actual things a person used and not just half of it.

it was the post literally above it, and that post also quoted you. Most people would think quoting the post again would be overkill.

 

[NZT-One]

Agree with this, and it reminds me of a post I wrote last season regarding how many people still take for granted most of the good things that Ole has done for the club and can't bring themselves to give him the level of credit he deserves because of who he is and how he is still perceived.

What makes that position so strange is that, as United fans, we've had very recent and very strong exposure to the damage that is caused when managers don't make the right choices. ...
yet so many people are still looking enviously at other clubs, or the latest flavour of the month manager ...

I am a very conservatice person so believe me, I am not wanting change for the sake of changing. But our issues in the past shouldn't stop us to try things. We are doing it for players, looking at Camavinga for example, so why is it so difficult to grasp, that we should at least think in the same direction regarding the manager.

Regarding the flavour of the month thing: you are projecting something, I never said "go for whoever" - obviously there needs to be some proper scouting before and a good hiring process and all. Look at Bayern, they do mostly good decisions while changing managers. So it is possible to do so.

This isn't meant to say, "just get rid of Ole, because he isn't good enough" - this is just me saying lets stop making him bigger than he is and keep our eyes open, who is available or not. And if the right fit is there, make a decision. We all want United to be successful, our competitors combine great squads with great managers. We should strive for this as well. Not at all costs, but we should do it.

Unfortunately I don't see how we can realistically be expected to compete with Man City. We don't have two elite first 11's to bring out.

And still Liverpool were able to win the league and we were able to be top of the table half a year in. It is possible, it is difficult, but it is possible. Writing the season off before is madness and, in my eyes, rightfully perceived as a somewhat unjust defeatism.

 

[NZT-One]

it was the post literally above it, and that post also quoted you. Most people would think quoting the post again would be overkill.

Just have a look...

- I want us to win 90% of the games we are expected to win by squad quality (looking at starting eleven plus players available in context of schedule and meaning of the game)
- I want us to win a at least half of matches against equal opposition (looking at starting eleven plus players available in context of schedule and meaning of the game)

Look at what I said.

WIll just talk about the 1st 2 points here as others are completely subjective and we won't end up anywhere
- So, win 90% of games against all teams bar City, Chelsea and Pool - 29 wins from 32 games
- against big 4, 2 wins out of 6 (Chelsea and Pool being equal and City being better)

Look at what the user perceived from my text. Misunderstandings happen, I tried to be more clear in a response to him

...

Click the link, look at what this user quoted. He changed what I wrote by using only the parts that fitted his argument.

And now you defend him without looking at the case seemingly. The quote function makes total sense as long as we don't change statements. But I forgive you, your words below seem very sincere to me.

I should have had a look about what actually happend before I start jumping in to defend someone just because I felt it would be right thing to do. I was wrongfully self-righteous.

 

[OleBoiii]

(looking at starting eleven plus players available in context of schedule and meaning of the game)

In the PL we almost always play our strongest team possible. Even with 2 or 3 key players out injured, we'll still have a stronger team than 16 out of 20 teams.

I didn't remove this part from the quote to misrepresent your point. I left it out because it hardly makes any difference.

 

[Bilbo]

I am a very conservatice person so believe me, I am not wanting change for the sake of changing. But our issues in the past shouldn't stop us to try things. We are doing it for players, looking at Camavinga for example, so why is it so difficult to grasp, that we should at least think in the same direction regarding the manager.

Regarding the flavour of the month thing: you are projecting something, I never said "go for whoever" - obviously there needs to be some proper scouting before and a good hiring process and all. Look at Bayern, they do mostly good decisions while changing managers. So it is possible to do so.

This isn't meant to say, "just get rid of Ole, because he isn't good enough" - this is just me saying lets stop making him bigger than he is and keep our eyes open, who is available or not. And if the right fit is there, make a decision. We all want United to be successful, our competitors combine great squads with great managers. We should strive for this as well. Not at all costs, but we should do it.

I never replied to your post, so I'm not sure why you've said the bolded part. For what its worth I generally enjoy your posts whether I agree with them or not.

For the second bolded part, the club constantly are making decisions. Poch was available for most of the worst periods of Ole's time here. The likes of Nagelsmann & Tuchel have also changed clubs. We may have moved for the latter two (we obviously didn't move for Poch), but something tells me we didn't and that's because the club are happy with the project and the progress of the project. In these instances not making a decision, or rather not acting on an option, is the same as making one.

Of course that can change, and over a long enough timeline almost certainly will change, but I'm choosing to be satisfied with the present and not feel the need to constantly discuss 'what ifs' or engage in the game by game constantly moving needle on Ole's abilities as has become commonplace on here. Sadly for me that seems to be 90% of the Cafe these days so I'm posting far less frequently.

 

[NZT-One]

I never replied to your post, so I'm not sure why you've said the bolded part. For what its worth I generally enjoy your posts whether I agree with them or not.

For the second bolded part, the club constantly are making decisions. Poch was available for most of the worst periods of Ole's time here. The likes of Nagelsmann & Tuchel have also changed clubs. We may have moved for the latter two (we obviously didn't move for Poch), but something tells me we didn't and that's because the club are happy with the project and the progress of the project. In these instances not making a decision, or rather not acting on an option, is the same as making one.

Of course that can change, and over a long enough timeline almost certainly will change, but I'm choosing to be satisfied with the present and not feel the need to constantly discuss 'what ifs' or engage in the game by game constantly moving needle on Ole's abilities as has become commonplace on here. Sadly for me that seems to be 90% of the Cafe these days so I'm posting far less frequently.

Fair enough, I didn't want to falsely accuse you of something. My apologies.

About the bolded part, I agree with you. It is kinda difficult to discuss some issues, for example not making a sub, when these discussion often dissolve into OleIn or OleOut. Both sides invested a lot of time in fighting for their side, it is natural that the tensity becomes apparent pretty fast. But, for what it is worth, I would confirm that the number of real knuckleheads on the Out-side to be more numerous than the real knuckleheads on the other side. I don't know about you but there are a few people around, you would think Ole could slap them in the head while stealing their phone and fumbling their girlfriend and they would still be the first to find reasons, why that is a good thing ("Good that he shows who is the real alpha"). Hopefully us being as positive and successful as we are, will keep both extremes at bay. I think it did in the last months.