Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

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Skåre Willoch said:
Not at all what I’m saying, but sure. Question him as much as you like. Revoke his immunity. Beat him to a pulp with a DVB shaped stick for all I care.

I’m just saying bad signings happen. Of course it’s on Ole that it didn’t work out as planned, but I don’t really think it’s that big of a deal. Again. It happens. And it will happen on a relatively regular basis no matter who’s in charge.
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It might not even be a bad signing.

I think most of the problem seems to be that DvB gets gassed quickly. Seeing as it's a pandemic season, with no preseason, games every three days, and the Eredivisie finishing early, so months off, it's kinda understandable he hasn't been used a huge amount.

He's also just moved to a new division, known for its physicality, and if I remember correctly, the Dutch youth are all trained in a specific system, across all clubs, so this might also be the first time he's seen a significant difference in training. We've been fighting on all fronts as much as we can for most of the season, so blooding in new players was always going to be hard.

I don't see how any of that is Ole's fault
 
Peter van der Gea said:
It might not even be a bad signing.

I think most of the problem seems to be that DvB gets gassed quickly. Seeing as it's a pandemic season, with no preseason, games every three days, and the Eredivisie finishing early, so months off, it's kinda understandable he hasn't been used a huge amount.

He's also just moved to a new division, known for its physicality, and if I remember correctly, the Dutch youth are all trained in a specific system, across all clubs, so this might also be the first time he's seen a significant difference in training. We've been fighting on all fronts as much as we can for most of the season, so blooding in new players was always going to be hard.

I don't see how any of that is Ole's fault
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All fair points. But then again. “I have a lot of questions, and I demand answers! It’s my right to question things I don’t like. I have to blame someone for something!!!”
 
Skåre Willoch said:
All fair points. But then again. “I have a lot of questions, and I demand answers! It’s my right to question things I don’t like. I have to blame someone for something!!!”
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I can't give you answers, but I did just get in a wonderful delivery of alternative facts, if that would be of interest. I'm sure we could work something out
 
BFernandes said:
Hard a brain fart there. However the point still stands. They did us on a set-piece. The same phase of play that we have struggled on for the entire season. So what's your point exactly?

As for the original plan working, do you deliberately wash over a point to suit your narrative? That wasn't my point and you know it. So let me spell it out for you. He seems completely unable to a stem a tide when it's going against us.

When his first 11 haven't been able to get the job done, how many times has he rung the changes and it's had any kind of sizeable impact? That's even if he does it at all, of course. Cavani against Southampton of course, but whenever we've really needed to turn something around (such as Turkey away, Europa final) he's not been able to conjure anything up.
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https://futaa.com/article/222729/manchester-united-are-the-official-comeback-kings

According to this, there's no better manager in Premier League history to stem the tide when it's going against us.

You know, on the pitch there are a bunch of guys, who are handsomely rewarded to play professional sports. They should have won the game before we got to extra time, comfortably.

I get that you're currently the foreman of the salt mine, but if there's anything we have done this season, it's stem a tide.

Remember, until the very tail end of the season we went what, 30 gameweeks without being beaten in the Premier League. Hard to be upset about that.

I'm happy where the team is headed. I'm also patient and trust in the process. Try it.
 
BFernandes said:
Hard a brain fart there. However the point still stands. They did us on a set-piece. The same phase of play that we have struggled on for the entire season. So what's your point exactly?
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Ok, I may have been a bit of a dick and going for the punctual meaning of what you said. I agree that our (by far) weakest area is defending set pieces. It's even a bigger problem than not breaking down organized defences. I truly hope that with more time on the training pitch it will get better next season, because it is also the one thing in football that is most dependant on actual time training it.
BFernandes said:
As for the original plan working, do you deliberately wash over a point to suit your narrative? That wasn't my point and you know it. So let me spell it out for you. He seems completely unable to a stem a tide when it's going against us.

When his first 11 haven't been able to get the job done, how many times has he rung the changes and it's had any kind of sizeable impact? That's even if he does it at all, of course. Cavani against Southampton of course, but whenever we've really needed to turn something around (such as Turkey away, Europa final) he's not been able to conjure anything up.
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I think we're looking at this from very different perspectives. First, I recommend reading this: https://kwestthoughts.substack.com/p/for-manchester-united-its-work-smarter

Then, I think a manager whose team turns games around after half time is a manager who can influence a lot when things are not going great for them.

And finally, what are the bench options that Ole has? Mata, Donny, Amad (who only arrived in Jan and was part of the first team since Feb) and James. Do you honestly believe they are game-changers?

As for Turkey away, there weren't one or two players to throw in and turn that game around. Villareal...who would you sub on to increase our chances to score a goal? When you best options are already on the pitch, why make a sub if it is most likely going to decrease the quality and chances of scoring a goal (and not conceding more)?
 
Peter van der Gea said:
I can't give you answers, but I did just get in a wonderful delivery of alternative facts, if that would be of interest. I'm sure we could work something out
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Just how alternative are we talking, here? Do they involve a bunch of positives about the guy who just finished second in League 1, for example? Or how a formerly bald Italian would walk the league?
 
el3mel said:
And that's what I do. I give him credit for deals like Bruno, as much as I criticize him for deals like VDB. Meanwhile some here are trying to act as if any good signing is his and every bad wasn't "his player". Several times people criticized a deal like Daniel James here and the response was "blame the board, they don't always sign the manager's player".

I mean at the start of the season people were saying he will get chances along the road. Now the season has ended and we are talking about him getting chances next year? The problem is we signed a player for such sum of fee and we seem to not even know which position we should play him in on the pitch. We don't know if he's a number 8 or 10. We are absolutely clueless about one of our transfers that costed us 45m.

Of course people are right to question everything about this deal.
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Well, sometimes it just takes time with some players, and lots of things can play into that. We'll just have to wait and see I think. I'd be more worried if the club wasn't so categorical about him not being up for sale or loan.

Otherwise, total agreement. What we know about the club's transfer system is that there are several people involved in choosing a player, but that the manager has a veto. That means you can't really hold Ole solely responsible for things like a certain player being chosen over another player, but it's perfectly reasonable to hold him accountable for the decision to sign a given player. He could have said no, and didn't.
 
Shark said:
It's just that the consensus when VDB was signed, was that he'd cover for Bruno in that number ten position, but aside from a couple of cameos I'm not sure that was even tested fully. Lingard seemed to get more opportunities in that role so we were probably better off keeping him around of Ole didn't want to use VDB.
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The consensus among fans. Who, generally, know little to nothing about football (in the professional level required for Premier League clubs) ;)
 
UDontMessWith24 said:
I don't know how to explain "half of the people on that list" and "before they played for Poch" in simpler terms. Would you like me to draw you a picture?
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This pretty much sums it up. The fact that you try to paint them as nobodies is laughable
anant said:
Who are you referring to in this half btw? Pre -Poch
Lloris had been French #1 for 4-5 years I believe. He'd been at Spurs for 2 seasons as well by then.
Walker had been part of PL team of the year before Poch
Vertonghen had also been part of PL team of the year pre-Poch
Alderweireld - maybe I can give it to you, although he was rated pretty highly and had featured in CL final
Dembele- Was a regular at Spurs before Poch came in, and was pretty highly rated
Eriksen- Came pre-Poch and was doing well then as well. Also was incredibly highly rated as a youngster
Son- Very highly rated (I remember RVN speaking highly of him as well), won Asian player of the year the year before he signed, but I can understand if someone says they cant recognize him because not everyone follows Asian football and BuLi
Kane- I can give that to you.

At best it'd be 3/8 but were assuming someone doesnt watch CL finals, and has no idea about Asian football or BuLi at all.

I agree Poch was excellent for Spurs and made the side a lot better, but you can't really credit Poch for making these players household names
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Skåre Willoch said:
Just how alternative are we talking, here? Do they involve a bunch of positives about the guy who just finished second in League 1, for example? Or how a formerly bald Italian would walk the league?
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I can offer a "playing style" that doesn't involve quick breaks, or perhaps a foreign epitheted "philosophy" if you're looking for something more cultured. There is also a fancy dressed German if you like to mix flair with efficiency
 
Peter van der Gea said:
I can offer a "playing style" that doesn't involve quick breaks, or perhaps a foreign epitheted "philosophy" if you're looking for something more cultured. There is also a fancy dressed German if you like to mix flair with efficiency
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DM. Hope you can include some «patterns of play» as well.
 
Skåre Willoch said:
DM. Hope you can include some «patterns of play» as well.
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Patterns of play are extra. As are throw-in coaches.

If you are serious, I can send you over a binding-non-binding proforma and details for where you can deposit the introduction fee and we can take it from there
 
Dve said:
Yet, ending second. Well done.
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Still have no idea of the point you're making? I'm really only saying Ole needs backing in the window. There is no evidence to suggest we can win a major trophy (CL/PL) with the current setup. I think Ole has done a good job and deserves to be backed. Think most people agree that unless there is major investment, this season will be as good as it gets. No contradiction there. And if the others improve and we don't, United will finish outside the top 4 and Ole will be sacked.
 
United Irishman said:
Still have no idea of the point you're making? I'm really only saying Ole needs backing in the window. There is no evidence to suggest we can win a major trophy (CL/PL) with the current setup. I think Ole has done a good job and deserves to be backed. Think most people agree that unless there is major investment, this season will be as good as it gets. No contradiction there. And if the others improve and we don't, United will finish outside the top 4 and Ole will be sacked.
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Considering our league position, it´s hard to accept that he´s the most inexperienced manager (or the one with the most underwhelming CV, as you say) and at same time, by far the least talented one. What do you base "least talented" on? Your own expectations for next season?

And since I´m in a grumpy mood, how can you say that we have by far the worst manager among the teams we are competing with, and still wanting to keep him? Which of the 4 are you?

1. someone who likes to eat your cake, and have it too?
2. someone shitting your pants and insisting on keeping them on?
3. a Liverpool supporter?
4. Mark Goldbridge?
 
Dve said:
Considering our league position, it´s hard to accept that he´s the most inexperienced manager (or the one with the most underwhelming CV, as you say) and at same time, by far the least talented one. What do you base "least talented" on? Your own expectations for next season?

And since I´m in a grumpy mood, how can you say that we have by far the worst manager among the teams we are competing with, and still wanting to keep him? Which of the 4 are you?

1. someone who likes to eat your cake, and have it too?
2. someone shitting your pants and insisting on keeping them on?
3. a Liverpool supporter?
4. Mark Goldbridge?
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Don't really know where to begin with this... What are you talking about? Are you 12?

1) League position and experience are different things.
2) Which other manager in the top 4 does Ole have a better CV than? It's not even a debate. It's based on fact. All the others have won league titles and CLs. Guardiola, Klopp, Tuchel have far better CVs than Ole. I genuinely don't know how you can be offended by that? Ole wouldn't even be...
3) I'd say Ole is the least talented because those other managers are at the pinnacle of the sport. They have an identity, style of play and they've won major trophies. Ole hasn't. What evidence do we have that Ole is more talented than any of those coaches?
4) None of the above means that I think Ole is useless. His devolpment of players has been very good. I think he's a good man manager. He has done very well with this squad, held up his end. Made good progress. Now he must be backed in the transfer market or he will fail. 99.9% of managers would. He's not a miracle worker. You're only as good as the players you've got. Ole needs to be given better players. I honestly don't know any United fan who disagrees with that.
5) My criticism is of the Glazers/board who want to talk about being the biggest club in the world but never act like it. No coherent strategy for improving the football team. So, to reiterate my original point, if you don't have a genius as manager (like SAF was), then you must give the manager a squad that can compete. That's really not a controversial opinion.

We can agree on one thing though, you are grumpy.
 
Dve said:
Considering our league position, it´s hard to accept that he´s the most inexperienced manager (or the one with the most underwhelming CV, as you say) and at same time, by far the least talented one. What do you base "least talented" on? Your own expectations for next season?

And since I´m in a grumpy mood, how can you say that we have by far the worst manager among the teams we are competing with, and still wanting to keep him? Which of the 4 are you?

1. someone who likes to eat your cake, and have it too?
2. someone shitting your pants and insisting on keeping them on?
3. a Liverpool supporter?
4. Mark Goldbridge?
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My money is on Mark.
 
The only things Ole needs to do is encourage better play across and varied over the top of opponents backlines.
The sheer amount of times a clear set of options over the top are on when we have deep possession and under pressure to spot runners making moves in to space behind is astounding.

The balls are never played
 
Hypothetical question

So, if Ole gets backed and we finally get Varane and Sancho. If Sancho (who would cost around 90m) or Varane don't hit the ground running as Havertz and Werner did this season. And we are where Chelsea were before Lampard getting the sack.
Do we still hang with Ole even though he couldn't utilize his players? Or we stick with him because "there isn't anyone better available", "brought great atmosphere in the dressing room", "he earned his 3rd year" and so on?
 
Karlos PFC said:
Hypothetical question

So, if Ole gets backed and we finally get Varane and Sancho. If Sancho (who would cost around 90m) or Varane don't hit the ground running as Havertz and Werner did this season. And we are where Chelsea were before Lampard getting the sack.
Do we still hang with Ole even though he couldn't utilize his players? Or we stick with him because "there isn't anyone better available", "brought great atmosphere in the dressing room", "he earned his 3rd year" and so on?
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All of these points are a result of overused clichés that, while inevitable in a never ending argument, don't really mean anything.

Ole getting backed is just good news all round. For him, for the club, for the fans & for the team. We should all simply be able to hope that this happens without already looking ahead at 'what ifs' because ultimately we all want whats best for this team, don't we?
 
Karlos PFC said:
Hypothetical question

So, if Ole gets backed and we finally get Varane and Sancho. If Sancho (who would cost around 90m) or Varane don't hit the ground running as Havertz and Werner did this season. And we are where Chelsea were before Lampard getting the sack.
Do we still hang with Ole even though he couldn't utilize his players? Or we stick with him because "there isn't anyone better available", "brought great atmosphere in the dressing room", "he earned his 3rd year" and so on?
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Depends doesn’t it. If the wheels come off and we’re 7th in the league at Christmas after several defeats then yeah, his position would appear untenable. But he’s gone through a few rough patches as manager and up to now managed to steer us out of them. No reason that couldn’t happen again.
 
Insulting another member
United Irishman said:
Don't really know where to begin with this... What are you talking about? Are you 12?

1) League position and experience are different things.
2) Which other manager in the top 4 does Ole have a better CV than? It's not even a debate. It's based on fact. All the others have won league titles and CLs. Guardiola, Klopp, Tuchel have far better CVs than Ole. I genuinely don't know how you can be offended by that? Ole wouldn't even be...
3) I'd say Ole is the least talented because those other managers are at the pinnacle of the sport. They have an identity, style of play and they've won major trophies. Ole hasn't. What evidence do we have that Ole is more talented than any of those coaches?
4) None of the above means that I think Ole is useless. His devolpment of players has been very good. I think he's a good man manager. He has done very well with this squad, held up his end. Made good progress. Now he must be backed in the transfer market or he will fail. 99.9% of managers would. He's not a miracle worker. You're only as good as the players you've got. Ole needs to be given better players. I honestly don't know any United fan who disagrees with that.
5) My criticism is of the Glazers/board who want to talk about being the biggest club in the world but never act like it. No coherent strategy for improving the football team. So, to reiterate my original point, if you don't have a genius as manager (like SAF was), then you must give the manager a squad that can compete. That's really not a controversial opinion.

We can agree on one thing though, you are grumpy.
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Yeah, well, I feel better now. Prat. You misread what I wrote. Yes, he is the most unexperienced manager. I agree with that. The results will be his legacy.
 
Fletchageddon said:
How the f**k is Ole unproven at this point? 3rd place, 2nd place and a Europa League Final. As opposed to say Poch? Who went to one Champions League Final? And can't win the French league with PSG?? Ole is a good manager. He could very well be great.
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2nd Place and Europa League final doesn't prove anything, you can ask Héctor Raúl Cúper.

The fact that at his 3rd year at the club you claim that "he could very well be great" is the cause for the whole criticism towards him.

Inigo Montoya said:
And he may not fit this club
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Care to elaborate?

DarkDog said:
You are brainwashed. Fletch is not a DoF. Glazers cant get a DoF because they will not give up the power. they want to control the transfers. That is why we have Edward Woodward running things and after him we will get someone like Richard Arnold. Someone who is willing to get his house burned by us just to protect Glazers and their money and their interests. Last season it was Joel Glazer himself who vetoed Jadon Sancho deal. It was Joel Glazer who vetoed Erling Haaland deal. It was Joel Glazer who vetoed Jude Bellingham deal. There have probably been 100 or more cases of this over the last 16 years that we dont know of. After all that scouting system that we have built we still are buying players that other clubs want. They heard that City wanted Alexis, they went and offered more money.
They heard City wanted Fred, went and bought Fred for 52mil
They heard that RM wanted van de Beek, they went and bought van de Beek who has played a grand total of 256 minutes of league football for us, that is even less than Virgil van Djik played this season.
All that we do will end up on the table of Joel Glazer and he will decide. He is the sole reason that Man Utd is wasting money, not using it to buy good players. They are leeches and they are always trying to get by not spending money.
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Glazer vetoed Haaland, Bellingham and Sancho? They heard that VDB was wanted by Real and we got him just to warm the bench? Man where do you get this?

This is some serious brainwashing shit.


Bilbo said:
All of these points are a result of overused clichés that, while inevitable in a never ending argument, don't really mean anything.

Ole getting backed is just good news all round. For him, for the club, for the fans & for the team. We should all simply be able to hope that this happens without already looking ahead at 'what ifs' because ultimately we all want whats best for this team, don't we?
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Sure they are overused cliches, I'm not arguing that. And of course backing Ole is good news for everyone and everyone wants what's best for the team.

But in a hypothetical scenario which isn't so away from reality, after all it just happened with Lampard and Tuchel, do we still hang with Ole given that we've backed him (Sancho, Varane or whoever) but he couldn't get the best from his players that cost a lot of money?

2 man midfield said:
Depends doesn’t it. If the wheels come off and we’re 7th in the league at Christmas after several defeats then yeah, his position would appear untenable. But he’s gone through a few rough patches as manager and up to now managed to steer us out of them. No reason that couldn’t happen again.
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Of course it depends, that's what I'm asking.

Yeah, those rough/purple patches have become the norm during Ole's tenure. Fecking frustrating
 
Dve said:
Yeah, well, I feel better now. Prat. You misread what I wrote. Yes, he is the most unexperienced manager. I agree with that. The results will be his legacy.
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Misread? I reread it about 10 times trying to make sense of it. Sadly, there was no sense to be found. I become less sure of what your point is with every post...
 
United Irishman said:
Misread? I reread it about 10 times trying to make sense of it. Sadly, there was no sense to be found. I become less sure of what your point is with every post...
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I didn´t look to start any discussion about Ole´s abilities as a manager; this thread is already 1487 pages long, and I have nothing to add.

The point I was trying to make, however, is that being unexperienced is to his disadvantage, while he´s still doing pretty well. Which suggests he may not be "by far the least talented manager", as you so bravely stated.
 
2 man midfield said:
Depends doesn’t it. If the wheels come off and we’re 7th in the league at Christmas after several defeats then yeah, his position would appear untenable. But he’s gone through a few rough patches as manager and up to now managed to steer us out of them. No reason that couldn’t happen again.
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I would say anything below the 2nd and no trophies means he should go. But also it depends on who is available and who is going to come to United.
 
Good to hear his recent noises in the press about us needing signings, he's making it clear he wants first team signings and he's putting the ball squarely in the court of the Glazers
 
pocco said:
For those who think better players = great football and success, this England team is throwing a massive spanner in your argument :lol:

Southgate as out of his depth as Ole.
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Yes, this England game sure showed... something about Ole for some reason.
 
pocco said:
People say we need Sancho, Kane and Rice. We'll England have all that plus more and still play like us. Better players don't mean success or even entertainment. That's my point.
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Club an international football are different. Southgate and Ole are different. Better players don't mean success, you are correct, but your post was just another opinion trying to be validated as fact.

United, as a squad and regardless of manager, need better players if we are to close the gap further.
 
TrustInOle said:
Club an international football are different. Southgate and Ole are different. Better players don't mean success, you are correct, but your post was just another opinion trying to be validated as fact.

United, as a squad and regardless of manager, need better players if we are to close the gap further.
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Yes, we might be able to compete with Leicester/Sevilla/Villareal in the challenges for trophies.
 
TrustInOle said:
Club an international football are different. Southgate and Ole are different. Better players don't mean success, you are correct, but your post was just another opinion trying to be validated as fact.

United, as a squad and regardless of manager, need better players if we are to close the gap further.
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Yes it's different, but look at the fluidity and organisation in some of the teams. With weaker squads than us. They get less time to prepare and play together but some teams play better than we do with less at their disposal. Some are in denial as to why that is but feck me is it obvious. I think if we were coached to play like some of these teams even the squad we have now would look a hell of a lot better.

Put this England squad in Italy shirts and they'd be sensational.
 
TrustInOle said:
Club an international football are different. Southgate and Ole are different. Better players don't mean success, you are correct, but your post was just another opinion trying to be validated as fact.

United, as a squad and regardless of manager, need better players if we are to close the gap further.
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I would argue that we also need a better manager alongside the better players.
 
pocco said:
Yes it's different, but look at the fluidity and organisation in some of the teams. With weaker squads than us. They get less time to prepare and play together but some teams play better than we do with less at their disposal. Some are in denial as to why that is but feck me is it obvious. I think if we were coached to play like some of these teams even the squad we have now would look a hell of a lot better.

Put this England squad in Italy shirts and they'd be sensational.
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You're making it seem like we're in Brighton's position and not just finished in a comfortable 2nd place despite having a very difficult season.

Relax. Not everything has to be about Ole.
 
el3mel said:
I would argue that we also need a better manager alongside the better players.
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Considering how your opinion changes with the blow of the wind, I think it's safe to say your arguments aren't really worth the time to consider
 
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