Yes I agree. And that's why I said, need to pick up as many points as possible.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Yeah forgot about thatThat’s a shallow take. His first full season he got rid of Lukaku and Sanchez and didn’t really get the replacements he needed. The next season was disrupted, and that carried on into the next season. At any rate we’ve seen a steady improvement, if you don’t see that I don’t know what to tell you. Maybe this is far as he can take us, but sacking him while the general trajectory still is pointing upward would be rash.
If we finish third and trophyless is that still progress if you factor in Liverpool and Chelsea were supposed to do much better than expected?
Thank you for looking into it.
Clearly we have had the busiest schedule, and IMO definitely has an impact. That was the biggest reason we lost yesterday IMO.
Having said that, for me that does not change my opinion. I think we should aim to do better than Ole.
Reality is we are not going to buy a striker/RW/ CM or DM and CB etc all of a sudden this summer. Easies way to improve is the manager.
I'm wondering, why so many in here so cocksure we'll still be 2nd come the end of season.
Results wise yes it would be a progress to finish 2nd or 3rd with 75 odd points but my issue is we still don't dominate opponents consistently. I don't think the style of football we have will help us to win a trophy unless we sign sancho, haaland, Rice and a top CB. Still won't be confident but we will automatically play better.
Having said that I will be disappointed if we bottle the 2nd position and finish any lower.
I've got a bottle of champagne on ice. It will be uncorked the day he is fired. Legendary player for the club who I will always respect but I can't take anymore of this tumescent shite. 4 defenders 2 holding midfielders must not concede attitude,lets try and hit them on the break. Dinosaur tactics that will never bring success.
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Honestly I think the Cafe is beyond the point where anybody is going to change anybody else's mind, but hopefully people can take things like our schedule into account before they go overboard with the criticism for yesterday's performance.
I wouldnt rule out United making some good moves this summer
We are sitting in 2nd position in the table behind a team that is at least 2 levels above us. We have gone out of the FA cup in torrid style, however, we did beat Liverpool and West Ham to reach that stage. We are in the EL QFs after defeating an Italian giant on the rise and may yet win the whole thing. We reached the SF of the league up and bowed out to City.
On paper, there definitely seems to be signs of progress. However, what really worries me is that our results actually mask our performances and we have not been at our fluid best in most of the games. Ole has made this team a lot more resilient but a lot less cohesive. We are very inconsistent from game to game, periods within games. Our attackers bar Marcus, have all had torrid seasons. So the question to ask is whether this progress is really sustainable or is it another false dawn? IMO I was feeling a lot more optimistic with the quality of our performances towards the 2nd half of last season than this season. If we have another bad window I am afraid we will implode next season and all signs of progress may be completely obliterated. Ole may get a pass this season but the pressure will start mounting on next season to start making us into genuine challengers.
On paper, there definitely seems to be signs of progress. However, what really worries me is that our results actually mask our performances and we have not been at our fluid best in most of the games. Ole has made this team a lot more resilient but a lot less cohesive. We are very inconsistent from game to game, periods within games. Our attackers bar Marcus, have all had torrid seasons. So the question to ask is whether this progress is really sustainable or is it another false dawn? IMO I was feeling a lot more optimistic with the quality of our performances towards the 2nd half of last season than this season. If we have another bad window I am afraid we will implode next season and all signs of progress may be completely obliterated. Ole may get a pass this season but the pressure will start mounting on next season to start making us into genuine challengers.
Our performances after the Burnley game last season when we went on an unbeaten run till the Chelsea game were better than anything we've seen this season. I can easily name 15 games this season where we looked clueless all over the pitch and pretty much performed like the Leicester game yesterday or even worse.
All that again seems reminiscent of the Mourinho reign where we were optimistic after the 1st season despite finishing 6th in the league and a lot more negative the next season after finishing 2nd.
All this talk about fixture build up is off the mark imo. It doesn't account for the fact that players like VDB, Henderson, Telles, James, up until recently etc. have barely been utilised. He has chosen to run players like Rashford, Bruno, Pogba, Maguire etc. into the ground. Those players may not be as good as the best players, but squad players seldom are, they're there to fill in throughout the season. He has managed the squad terribly at times this season imo.
Also, every other team is being impacted by the same thing too. We aren't the only team dealing with congestion.
Lastly, it's not as if this bad form and patches of decent results is something specific to this season. It has been a staple of Ole's time here. Using this season as some sort of exception to the rule, when if anything, his history with us suggests otherwise is clutching imo. His whole time here has been a good run of form, that most would argue isn't sustainable, followed by shite. I'm thinking his beginning here up until after PSG. I'm thinking the middle to end of last season.
His football and results are not sustainable. The movement is shite, the pressing is laughable at times, the passing is predictable and slow. If these things don't improve - frankly I don't give a feck who the manager is, they can feck off. He is going to be approaching 3 years with us and there is still huge question marks over the improvements in the team. Frankly, he needs to be better or hire the relevant personnel to manage the coaching aspect of his job or simply put, down the line, he will be just another failed manager here.
Also, every other team is being impacted by the same thing too. We aren't the only team dealing with congestion.
Lastly, it's not as if this bad form and patches of decent results is something specific to this season. It has been a staple of Ole's time here. Using this season as some sort of exception to the rule, when if anything, his history with us suggests otherwise is clutching imo. His whole time here has been a good run of form, that most would argue isn't sustainable, followed by shite. I'm thinking his beginning here up until after PSG. I'm thinking the middle to end of last season.
His football and results are not sustainable. The movement is shite, the pressing is laughable at times, the passing is predictable and slow. If these things don't improve - frankly I don't give a feck who the manager is, they can feck off. He is going to be approaching 3 years with us and there is still huge question marks over the improvements in the team. Frankly, he needs to be better or hire the relevant personnel to manage the coaching aspect of his job or simply put, down the line, he will be just another failed manager here.
I don't understand these 2 arguments I'm seeing.
1) You rotate because the players will be back with us after international break. It reduces the chance of them being burnt out or injured when they return to us.
2) the subs were made at 63 minutes. That is quite a reasonable time for me. If anything he has been waiting too long in the past to make subs or not making them at all. You will find many posts not happy about that in other games. So it is a different approach.
I'm not happy with yesterday's performance either and need to see more from Ole to prove his coaching is good enough. Although I do think our squad is about the 3rd best in the league. Slightly better than Leicester but they hadn't just played AC Milan and they are only 1 point behind us, so are a good side.
Because when he first arrived at City he had Aguero, KDB, Kompany and Sterling. But his first season was a flop, he still needed to outspend every other club to make it work. What was it £600M he has spent now? And head already inherited that quality core of the team. Much better than the dross Ole inherited.
- Rested Bruno before international break vs Leicester in a quarter final, had 2 defensive CMs on the pitch up until the 85th minute when we were already 3-1 down.
- Brought Dan James off for Shaw vs Milan first leg, fecked with the team shape and was all Milan after that point, conceded late goal.
- Played 2 defensive midfielders vs Crystal Palace for the entire game, finished 0-0
- Made one sub in the 79th minute vs Chelsea finishing 0-0 despite playing poorly, Chelsea made 3, on the 45th, 65th, 78th.
- Brought Diallo on for his Debut vs Sociedad and played him out of position on the left wing.
- Took Greenwood off for Tuanzebe vs Everton without instructing anyone to cover the right wing, the space was exploited and we conceded late again.
This is all since the 6th of Feb, then you have the already mentioned howler of him keeping Fred on vs PSG and effectively costing the club CL qualification.
I'm not advocating for him to be sacked but i can see it happening if he doesn't deliver a trophy. Or just a case of parting of ways with no new contract offer. Don't think he will entirely deserve it either, but there are signs that have never gone away that he is not fully up to the job at this level.
They've been shit for about a month, and they also had a full week of rest before the match. Funny how much of a difference it makes when you've got a full week to prepare for something.
Coming into the season, was the minimum expectation a trophy? Or is this just something people have decided is absolutely needed now to save his job? Solskjaer will sign a new contract the second top 4 is finalised. Thankfully, targets get set in the preseason and then you judge people against those targets, you don't just change those because you lose a couple of games and have a meltdown.
All valid criticisms. I'm still Ole-in for this season but we should really consider these aspects before giving him another contract.
I think to a certain extent, the points in the league can be a pretty big critique of this whole argument. If we show continued progress on that account (80+ pts for example), then the rest (squad management, streaky form, poor build up play etc.) are all secondary and I think he deserves another year.
I have no idea what the expectation was/is. You would think in his third season that minimum requirement would be 1/2/3 in the league and a trophy. Getting knocked out of CL in the way we did and to then end up with no trophy would stink a bit.
OleRemain for me, but I have no objections to club management assessing alternatives right now. If in May management have an alternative I'm open to hearing what it is, but I'll just say that management is part of the problem.
Well I predicted us third and with no trophies although that doesn't mean I am happy with that. Our aim should always be to win things if not it is a failure. Granted the journey can be great, but our football is not that great. I think the biggest joy I have had is knocking Liverpool out of the Fa cup and also PSG away in CL. Sadly we got knocked out in terrible ways with shocking performances.
You can play well without getting the wins and get close to sucess, but not seeing that with this season so far. We have failed in 4/4 main targets and are left in EL since we got third in the CL group. Winning the EL would be nice, but it would overall be a pretty disappointing season particular if City wins it all. Granted the joy of a EL win would be massive since it is long since we won something, but reflecting on the season overall there can still be big questions about Ole.
We've barely ever been as dominant against a good side under Ole as Leicester were yesterday. That's my point. Their ball retention, organisation (even after changing the shape to suit players available. Who'd have thought that's a possibility eh?). They played football like a proper top team does, set out to dominate and did just that. We play to ambush, use physical attributes and less intelligence and organisation. We rely on the mind of the individual to come up with the answers. All of which points to a lack of ideas from the actual man in charge.
There was a press briefing/story not long ago, after we got humiliated and knocked out of the CL, which said Woodward expected a title challenge this season. Amongst other things. I bet he's changed that idea to keep his shield from the fans in place. Hell I heard he's even left Manchester now.
This is where I disagree. Finishing second, a point ahead of Leicester, or third, a point behind Leicester, would be meaningless to me. What I want to see is a brand of football that can be a stepping stone to better things next season.
He needs to get us playing better football. He has us playing some dross at times, it’s bad way more often than it’s good, and that’s not a good sign. Even in most of our wins this season the football has been ugly. We seem to have an identity crisis. We’re a defensive team fundamentally set up to counter attack, but then we slowly pass out from the back like a possession team, which is something we don’t have the players for & often hands the opposition a big chance.
No one really can make certainty how well Pep can do with this squad because the way how he plays require very good technical and intelligent player.
And if we use his time at Man City, he had KDB, Aguero, Fernandinho, Kompany Silva. All of those five in their prime age and in additional he also already had Sterling before he came and he was given 200m to spend in 16/17 alone but he only finished the season 3rd with 78 points. That 16/17 City squad is without a doubt still better than our current squad.
So if 78 points is the maximum he can achieve with better squad, what can he do with this current squad? He could still win the league someday but that's only if he is given time to build and develop this squad and given how our board didn't back Ole to upgrade/improve his XI last summer, it's natural to say that the board can also slow down the progress if Pep comes here.
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I think we have slowly evolving our style to dominate opponents in some of the games like against Everton for example. Sometime you can't expect the team to dominate against teams with much better midfield or players to retain possession. He hasn't get the support from the board to buy players to upgrade his XI last summer so the players he has is still almost the same as last season which players that are not specialist in their retaining possession means there are not much he can do to make drastically changes.
For example, would you blame SAF for not able to dominate vs Barcelona in final?
My current expectations from Solskjaer are fairly simple make top 4 and atleast make finals of Europa league while giving enough game time to Greenwood ,Diallo and Van Der Beek as CF , RW and CM respectively without jeopardizing our season to ascertain to which extent they can be relied upon next season because currently based on their contribution or lack of game time they are non factor.
Christ on a fecking bike. Nobody expected us to dominate Barcelona and it’s not the same anyway. What kind of idiotic straw man is that?
If we can start by dominating and dictating games against the likes of Sheffield United, West Brom and Fulham it would go along way to appeasing those unconvinced. As we know though, none of those things happened in those games against the bottom three.
Playing Bruno and Rashford after 4-0 up against Sociedad. Maybe Cup QF is not the best place to give some rest eh Ole
What make you think we didn't dominate against those teams? Not getting a result is different to not able to dominate FFS!!
Oh, wum, never mind, carry on ....
You wouldn't be making such assertions had you watched us against them we hardly created anything let alone dominate them.
Everytime we created lot of chances or even more chances against teams but with based on less possession, people don't call it dominate. Again, is dominate the same definition as creating chances? If we are talking about creating chances, we are one of the top one out there in PL in term of creating chances. High xG and also scoring goals.
Wow, such a good quality post and input. Keep it up.
We usually don't create lot of quality chances that's why most of our games end up closer than usually they should . One thing though I agree with you is we have imbalanced team and could do with further quality injection.
If Solskjaer can squeeze out 76 points season I would say that's about par for this group of players, may be we could be more aesthetically pleasing and could have done better in CL , but I can't see this team getting regular low 80's points total let alone high 80's even with other great managers Unless further additions are made.
I agree and I just want to correct something, our xG is among the top one as well. It might not be closed to man city but it’s 4th best with similar number to Liverpool and Chelsea. While the ones below us are much more less. xG still reflects to quality chances and we are up there with Chelsea and Liverpool in term of creating quality chances. Few more additional can push it higher.
I agree, Pep needs really specific players to develop his system. Often spending gigantic fees in order to develop the squad, but once he does it the level his teams have reached is amazing.
Of course we are speaking hypothetically since we cant be certain what would happen, but lets be honest here Pep is 10 times the manager Ole is. If we make a list on the greatest managers in history where do you think each one would be?
Ole is not even in that conversation, nor he is close to be. Pep is an all time great with 50 years, Ole while really loved here is not even a world recognized manager at 48.
So let's keep it real here, its pretty safe to assume Pep would do better than Ole in pretty much any team.
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