(again sorry for long post, but having only 5 posts per day)
Oh right. You didn't quote me. So you jump in the middle of a debate, adressed one of the participants to talk about a generic fictive person that coincidentally has the same opinion as I do. And when I adress you, I am defensive and you don't know why. Got it, strange world out there. Lets leave it at that.
Wait, what? There is a claim that some particular improve takes place. I doubt it to some extent. And now you want me to prove it isn't there? I mean with all due respect: thanks for bringing one detailed example but it seems you feel like all doubts have been erased now. They aren't. Let me get into that:
Without a doubt, there has been a change in the player Luke Shaw. I think it is certainly valid to conclude that Ole improved him as a player. But I don't think this is the only possible explanation. Lets have a look:
Category 20-21 | 19-20 | 18-19 | 17-18 | 16-17 | 15-16 | 14-15 | 13-14(S)
Apps 23 | 20 | 29 | 8 | 9 | 5 | 15 | 35 |
Assists 5 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 |
AvgP 50.6 | 47.6 | 57.2 | 43.4 | 34.8 | 54.2 | 33.8 | 40.1 |
PassSucc 84.3 | 87.4 | 83.3 | 84.9 | 85.6 | 86.0 | 86.7 | 79.1 |
Cross p.G. 1.8 | 0.4 | 0.5 | 0.0 | 0.6 | 1.0 | 0.4 | 0.8 |
KeyP p.G. 2.1 | 0.8 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 0.9 | 0.8 | 0.9 | 1.0 |
Dribblings 0.8 | 0.9 | 0.9 | 0.5 | 0.8 | 1.2 | 0.7 | 1.6 |
Disp p.G. 0.6 | 0.1 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.5 | 1.2 | 0.1 | 1.3 |
Bad ctrl p.G 0.8 | 0.6 | 1.0 | 0.9 | 0.7 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.9 |
(Data from whoscored, sorry for formatting, it looks better in the editor, where I added around 10.000 spaces ^^)
So what do we get here:
- The number of assists has a positive trend. The numbers now are alright without being awesome. Numbers of the past are low...
- The number of passes made hasn't increased (probably a lot down to system).
- The Pass success rate is pretty stable on high level since the beginning.
- The number of crosses have increased. But I can't believe somebody explained the concept of crossing to Shaw this year for the first time, more likely he gained the confidence to execute it.
- The number of key passes has increased to the 7th highest number in the league, highest number for all leftbacks.
- Number of Dribblings per game are pretty stable.
- Number of being disposessed per game is stable. Was better in the past, maybe also connected with system.
- Number of bad controls went up (probably also connected to riskier system)
So the one significant number here is key passes.
Whoscored-definition for key pass: The final pass leading to a shot at goal from a teammate.
So I guess crosses are key passes?
So Shaw added crosses to his game, which increases the number of key passes he has. Even if it isn't just the crosses, that is good and surely an improvement. Him being the best left back in the league though - well this year surely. But how does he look in comparison to other left backs (in terms of involvement in attack). Lets have a look:
(same seasons as above)
Shaw
Assists 5 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 |
KeyP p.G. 2.1 | 0.8 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 0.9 | 0.8 | 0.9 | 1.0 |
Robertson
Assists 5 | 12 | 11 | 5 | 2* | 4* | 2* |
KeyP p.G. 1.6 | 1.7 | 1.4 | 1.1 | 0.6 | 1.3 | 0.7 |
(* = playing for Hull)
Cresswell
Assists 7 | 0 | 1 | 7 | 2 | 4 | 4 |
KeyP p.G. 1.4 | 0.8 | 0.9 | 0.9 | 0.7 | 1.1 | 0.9 |
(Data from whoscored)
Shaws number of assists is relatively low. He's probably better in total due to his good defending. His numbers might be higher with better chance conversion in our team, but that actually applies to the other ones as well...
About your timeline:
Under Mourinho: A once seen as very talented left back who is not the same player since having a serious injury. Mourinho even singled him out occasionally shattering his confidence. Near the end there were small glimpses of the former Shaw. Many were asking for a new left back.
18/19 when Ole was hired: He won our POTS and yet people still have doubt in him and talked about new left back to upgrade him. With the negative influence of Mourinho stopped the whole team was flying. Shaw was in line with that, fans were still questioning if he has what it takes to be Uniteds LB as he was mostly above average and the position was heavily considered for an upgrade.
19/20 The positive character of the new manager, likely encouragements and a way less negative play style benefitted all technically good players, same with Luke Shaw. He gained more confidence and became one of the key performers for United. He did that mostly by becoming more of an outlet on the left side, creating a good partnership with Rashford. He ended the season with 0 goals and 0 assists though. When United brought in Telles the move was very much welcomed by most of the fans.
20/21 Now turning into the current best left back in the league. His very good 1st touch and his very reliable passing got him a bigger role in the buildup of Uniteds game. Since New Year he starts to make driving runs into the box - reminiscend to the early Shaw. He scored one goal and has 5 assists until today. (Cresswell with 7 assists, Digne with 6 assists and Robertson with also 5 assists are the other leftbacks in the current top 20 assisters in the league.)
As a reference point and for context,
Season 19/20 Robertson ended the year with 12 assists, Digne with 7 and Azpilicueta with 6.
Season 18/19 Robertson ended the year with 11 assists, Matt Richie with 8, Holebas and Sessegnon with 6 (last two not in the Top20)
Season 17/18 Cresswell ended the year with 7 assists, Chris Brunt (36 years old) with 7, Ben Davies and Azpilicueta with 6 (last two not in the Top20)
(Data from Whoscored)
My timeline is depicting the exact same period of time as yours. Is there anything in there, what wouldn't be confirmed by the majority of fans?
My conclusion: Shaw has improved as a player. The deciding factor is questionable, one of the more likelier ones being the technical work with Ole. For me personally I seems it is more the trust that helps him to get back to his best (seeing that he didn't reach new heights except for key passes this season), being a bit under pressure by Telles might also fired him on. The level of improvement in offensive output is visible but isn't exceptional when not just compared to himself under Mourinho but to the rest of the league as well.
As Shaw is the prime example of players that supposedly have improved due to specifically Ole being here, your "evidence" is not fully convincing. I understand your stance, I see what you see but my conclusions are different. This sounds as if I want to bash the player. I don't. But in contrast to you, I see the player improvements as more down to feel-good and finding some sort of system and play style that suits the players more than the one under Mourinho. I do so, because the exact same level of improvement is observable with Rashford, McTominay and probably Fred. I'll happily credit Ole for achieving that but there are managers out there being able to bring some level of feel-good-factor, are able to agree on a system with the players that suits them more AND to bring even more to the table. I understand the support for Ole and it is justified in principle, what I don't get is the extent of support. And from what I understand, I am not alone on that.
Oh right. You didn't quote me. So you jump in the middle of a debate, adressed one of the participants to talk about a generic fictive person that coincidentally has the same opinion as I do. And when I adress you, I am defensive and you don't know why. Got it, strange world out there. Lets leave it at that.
Wait, what? There is a claim that some particular improve takes place. I doubt it to some extent. And now you want me to prove it isn't there? I mean with all due respect: thanks for bringing one detailed example but it seems you feel like all doubts have been erased now. They aren't. Let me get into that:
Without a doubt, there has been a change in the player Luke Shaw. I think it is certainly valid to conclude that Ole improved him as a player. But I don't think this is the only possible explanation. Lets have a look:
Category 20-21 | 19-20 | 18-19 | 17-18 | 16-17 | 15-16 | 14-15 | 13-14(S)
Apps 23 | 20 | 29 | 8 | 9 | 5 | 15 | 35 |
Assists 5 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 |
AvgP 50.6 | 47.6 | 57.2 | 43.4 | 34.8 | 54.2 | 33.8 | 40.1 |
PassSucc 84.3 | 87.4 | 83.3 | 84.9 | 85.6 | 86.0 | 86.7 | 79.1 |
Cross p.G. 1.8 | 0.4 | 0.5 | 0.0 | 0.6 | 1.0 | 0.4 | 0.8 |
KeyP p.G. 2.1 | 0.8 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 0.9 | 0.8 | 0.9 | 1.0 |
Dribblings 0.8 | 0.9 | 0.9 | 0.5 | 0.8 | 1.2 | 0.7 | 1.6 |
Disp p.G. 0.6 | 0.1 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.5 | 1.2 | 0.1 | 1.3 |
Bad ctrl p.G 0.8 | 0.6 | 1.0 | 0.9 | 0.7 | 0.4 | 0.3 | 0.9 |
(Data from whoscored, sorry for formatting, it looks better in the editor, where I added around 10.000 spaces ^^)
So what do we get here:
- The number of assists has a positive trend. The numbers now are alright without being awesome. Numbers of the past are low...
- The number of passes made hasn't increased (probably a lot down to system).
- The Pass success rate is pretty stable on high level since the beginning.
- The number of crosses have increased. But I can't believe somebody explained the concept of crossing to Shaw this year for the first time, more likely he gained the confidence to execute it.
- The number of key passes has increased to the 7th highest number in the league, highest number for all leftbacks.
- Number of Dribblings per game are pretty stable.
- Number of being disposessed per game is stable. Was better in the past, maybe also connected with system.
- Number of bad controls went up (probably also connected to riskier system)
So the one significant number here is key passes.
Whoscored-definition for key pass: The final pass leading to a shot at goal from a teammate.
So I guess crosses are key passes?
So Shaw added crosses to his game, which increases the number of key passes he has. Even if it isn't just the crosses, that is good and surely an improvement. Him being the best left back in the league though - well this year surely. But how does he look in comparison to other left backs (in terms of involvement in attack). Lets have a look:
(same seasons as above)
Shaw
Assists 5 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 |
KeyP p.G. 2.1 | 0.8 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 0.9 | 0.8 | 0.9 | 1.0 |
Robertson
Assists 5 | 12 | 11 | 5 | 2* | 4* | 2* |
KeyP p.G. 1.6 | 1.7 | 1.4 | 1.1 | 0.6 | 1.3 | 0.7 |
(* = playing for Hull)
Cresswell
Assists 7 | 0 | 1 | 7 | 2 | 4 | 4 |
KeyP p.G. 1.4 | 0.8 | 0.9 | 0.9 | 0.7 | 1.1 | 0.9 |
(Data from whoscored)
Shaws number of assists is relatively low. He's probably better in total due to his good defending. His numbers might be higher with better chance conversion in our team, but that actually applies to the other ones as well...
About your timeline:
Let me I re-phrase that a bit:
Under Mourinho: A once seen as very talented left back who is not the same player since having a serious injury. Mourinho even singled him out occasionally shattering his confidence. Near the end there were small glimpses of the former Shaw. Many were asking for a new left back.
18/19 when Ole was hired: He won our POTS and yet people still have doubt in him and talked about new left back to upgrade him. With the negative influence of Mourinho stopped the whole team was flying. Shaw was in line with that, fans were still questioning if he has what it takes to be Uniteds LB as he was mostly above average and the position was heavily considered for an upgrade.
19/20 The positive character of the new manager, likely encouragements and a way less negative play style benefitted all technically good players, same with Luke Shaw. He gained more confidence and became one of the key performers for United. He did that mostly by becoming more of an outlet on the left side, creating a good partnership with Rashford. He ended the season with 0 goals and 0 assists though. When United brought in Telles the move was very much welcomed by most of the fans.
20/21 Now turning into the current best left back in the league. His very good 1st touch and his very reliable passing got him a bigger role in the buildup of Uniteds game. Since New Year he starts to make driving runs into the box - reminiscend to the early Shaw. He scored one goal and has 5 assists until today. (Cresswell with 7 assists, Digne with 6 assists and Robertson with also 5 assists are the other leftbacks in the current top 20 assisters in the league.)
As a reference point and for context,
Season 19/20 Robertson ended the year with 12 assists, Digne with 7 and Azpilicueta with 6.
Season 18/19 Robertson ended the year with 11 assists, Matt Richie with 8, Holebas and Sessegnon with 6 (last two not in the Top20)
Season 17/18 Cresswell ended the year with 7 assists, Chris Brunt (36 years old) with 7, Ben Davies and Azpilicueta with 6 (last two not in the Top20)
(Data from Whoscored)
My timeline is depicting the exact same period of time as yours. Is there anything in there, what wouldn't be confirmed by the majority of fans?
My conclusion: Shaw has improved as a player. The deciding factor is questionable, one of the more likelier ones being the technical work with Ole. For me personally I seems it is more the trust that helps him to get back to his best (seeing that he didn't reach new heights except for key passes this season), being a bit under pressure by Telles might also fired him on. The level of improvement in offensive output is visible but isn't exceptional when not just compared to himself under Mourinho but to the rest of the league as well.
As Shaw is the prime example of players that supposedly have improved due to specifically Ole being here, your "evidence" is not fully convincing. I understand your stance, I see what you see but my conclusions are different. This sounds as if I want to bash the player. I don't. But in contrast to you, I see the player improvements as more down to feel-good and finding some sort of system and play style that suits the players more than the one under Mourinho. I do so, because the exact same level of improvement is observable with Rashford, McTominay and probably Fred. I'll happily credit Ole for achieving that but there are managers out there being able to bring some level of feel-good-factor, are able to agree on a system with the players that suits them more AND to bring even more to the table. I understand the support for Ole and it is justified in principle, what I don't get is the extent of support. And from what I understand, I am not alone on that.
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