Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

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GoldTrafford99 said:
Not true, Mainoldo. Not true at all.


Under LvG and Jose, our squad was bought and had literally no future... nothing for us to cling to. Their reigns were all about the immediate.

Have you witnessed the young players Ole has bought and is having developed since he came in?

Honestly; wanna know how good Ole is, watch the U-23s. With Ole, it's all about where we're heading, not where we are today.

With LvG and Jose it was always about where we were at any one time.
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We literally have Rashford and Martial from the LVG reign.

We have Scott McTominay from the Jose reign. Those three are very important to how Ole see’s us in the future. We also forget there was some key improvements in certain areas under other management.

We seen Mike Smalling. De Gea turned into a world class keeper. Valencia became a competent right back and respected captain. There’s always pros and cons in everything. It’s personal preference that decide people’s views. I haven’t liked any of our managers. Except what I hoped Jose was going to bring at the beginning.. but it doesn’t mean I can’t give them credit to what they did.
 
BusbyMalone said:
The thing is, reading the last few pages both sides of the argument are so cocksure that they're right. The arrogance that they exude is quite something. I don't think I've seen one person go "you know what, that's actually a good point" Nah. I'm right and you're a fecking idiot is what's basically is going on. We've probably (definitely) all been there, to be fair, but it's amusing reading it.
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Aye, it's been like that for the longest time now. Both sides are so deeply entrenched in their beliefs that there is zero give or take. If either side was fully right then A) Ole would be long sacked or B) There would be a universal consensus that he's doing an amazing job. The fact that it's neither would surely indicate that he's somewhere in the middle of what the two staunch sides think.
 
Mainoldo said:
:lol: :lol: Apologies!!
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No worries.

Robbie Boy said:
Aye, it's been like that for the longest time now. Both sides are so deeply entrenched in their beliefs that there is zero give or take. If either side was fully right then A) Ole would be long sacked or B) There would be a universal consensus that he's doing an amazing job. The fact that it's neither would surely indicate that he's somewhere in the middle of what the two staunch sides think.
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I am, despite what it looks like when arguing positive aspects against negative aspects, somewhere in the middle (obviously leaning quite a bit to the positive/optimistic side).

But it obviously doesn't come across that way, as the arguments usually is about good vs. bad - not about nuances.
It wouldn't be much discussion around if everybody was in agreement somewhere in the middle, and if everything discussed was tiny nuances of fundamental agreement.
I think both "sides" seem to be more entrenched in their views than most actually are (at least that goes for myself), as the arguments are usually revolving around the parts of opinion/views that I/others disagree the most with. Just in the past page the argument was "You are WRONG and I can show you the FACTS". vs. "I see you facts, and can show you other facts proving otherwise". That doesn't mean any of the facts are wrong, as they're both facts, but in the heat of the moment (and in the spirit of a message board on the internet) things come across as a bit more polarized than I think they are. Which is why I've been banging the "context"-drum when people just bring up facts (like points totals, league finishes etc.).

But of course, there's Mainoldo, with his "DVB is as good as Bruno", that completely wipes out my point above :lol:
 
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Skåre Willoch said:
No worries.



I am, despite what it looks like when arguing positive aspects against negative aspects, somewhere in the middle (obviously leaning quite a bit to the positive/optimistic side).

But it obviously doesn't come across that way, as the arguments usually is about good vs. bad - not about nuances.
It wouldn't be much discussion around if everybody was in agreement somewhere in the middle, and if everything discussed was tiny nuances of fundamental agreement.
I think both "sides" seem to be more entrenched in their views than most are (at least that goes for myself), as the arguments are usually revolving around the parts of opinion/views that I/others disagree the most with. Just in the past page the argument was "You are WRONG and I can show you the FACTS". vs. "I see you facts, and can show you other facts proving otherwise". That doesn't mean any of the facts are wrong, as they're both facts, but in the heat of the moment (and in the spirit of a message board on the internet) things come across as a bit more polarized than I think they are.

But of course, there's Mainoldo, with his "DVB is as good as Bruno", that completely wipes out my point above :lol:
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For me there's about 5 groups of Ole fans. There's the 'Ole ins' and 'Ole outs': Both of these are utterly hysterical and resort to wumming and skewing stats to suit their agenda. Then there's the ones who support him but maybe see too many positives and the ones that support him but maybe see too many negatives. Then of course there's the flip-flopper who'll go into any camp depending on results. We all pretty much fit into one of the above.

For me, the extreme ins and outs are best ignored. The other two groups have some good intelligent debate even though they may not always agree on everything. You certainly come across as rational and I haven't seen you engaging in any wummy behaviour. I've had some good debate with you even if your outlook on Ole is more positive than mine. But the ones that swarm in here after a win with retorts like "take that haters" or the ones that swarm in after a draw/defeat calling him all sorts, are all best ignored. Neither have any intention of having a sensible debate.

I agree that some of the opinions are hysterical and hyperbolic, but this is from both extreme sides. The skewing of stats and selective stats to suit an agenda is tedious and counterproductive.
 
Robbie Boy said:
For me there's about 5 groups of Ole fans. There's the 'Ole ins' and 'Ole outs': Both of these are utterly hysterical and resort to wumming and skewing stats to suit their agenda. Then there's the ones who support him but maybe see too many positives and the ones that support him but maybe see too many negatives. Then of course there's the flip-flopper who'll go into any camp depending on results. We all pretty much fit into one of the above.

For me, the extreme ins and outs are best ignored. The other two groups have some good intelligent debate even though they may not always agree on everything. You certainly come across as rational and I haven't seen you engaging in any wummy behaviour. I've had some good debate with you even if your outlook on Ole is more positive than mine. But the ones that swarm in here after a win with retorts like "take that haters" or the ones that swarm in after a draw/defeat calling him all sorts, are all best ignored. Neither have any intention of having a sensible debate.

I agree that some of the opinions are hysterical and hyperbolic, but this is from both extreme sides. The skewing of stats and selective stats to suit an agenda is tedious and counterproductive.
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I think this is a fair assessment.

It's usually the minority holding the extreme views, but then again they tend to be the loudest, which makes it seem even more polarized than it actually is. Obviously this goes for both sides, and the "Inners" are just as unbearable whenever we're on a good run, as the "outers" are when we hit a rough patch.

Also, as you say, the use of stats are in general tedious and counterproductive, as they rarely come with any context at all, other than being used as a useless tool to prove a point.
 
Red Devil 26 said:
We're stuck in a pretty shit cycle with Ole. Go on a run of wins where good performances over 90 mins are at a premium, but the team shows some character and does enough to get through games won largely by fine margins.

Results then take a downward turn when quality of performances remain largely the same, but the individual brilliance of players such as Bruno, Pogba etc. are overwritten by defensive frailties and poor game management.

The only constants for me are largely indifferent performances where huge swathes of the game are marked by a distinct lack of ideas when we have possession, our back line and keeper's propensity to chuck in costly errors and the individual quality we have that chip in with vital attacking contributions. This amounts to, in my opinion, our teams ceiling being nothing more than top 4 year in year out under our current management.
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The football isn't always scintillating I agree but I do think a few extra signings will make the difference.
If we signed Grealish and Sancho and were still struggling then Ole wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
Breaking hard working PL teams down is hard to do and you need talented players to do it. We simply don't have enough and haven't had enough for a long time now.
 
Skåre Willoch said:
I think this is a fair assessment.

It's usually the minority holding the extreme views, but then again they tend to be the loudest, which makes it seem even more polarized than it actually is. Obviously this goes for both sides, and the "Inners" are just as unbearable whenever we're on a good run, as the "outers" are when we hit a rough patch.

Also, as you say, the use of stats are in general tedious and counterproductive, as they rarely come with any context at all, other than being used as a useless tool to prove a point.
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They certainly are the loudest, which can put people off posting in here. This just results in pages of inane debate which usually gets personal or decends into farcical territory.
 
Robbie Boy said:
They certainly are the loudest, which can put people off posting in here. This just results in pages of inane debate which usually gets personal or decends into farcical territory.
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There's also those who like to impose their superiority by coming into the thread and regularly telling everyone how impartial and balanced they are.
 
Zen86 said:
There's also those who like to impose their superiority by coming into the thread and regularly telling everyone how impartial and balanced they are.
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For sure. I'll firmly put myself in the support him but too negative at times camp. You are firmly in the hysterical in camp.
 
Zen86 said:
We don’t have to sweep away the opposition every game, see Liverpool for an example of that. You do have to get the 3 points though.

Basic defensive errors have cost us against Sheffield United, Everton, and West Brom. That would have been 9 points otherwise. That’s a big issue. Our attack has off days sure, and we’ve got some pretty inconsistent performers up front, but attack hasn’t really been the issue lately. We still battered those teams, but our vulnerability at the back makes teams believe they can defend for their lives and snatch a cheap goal against us. And they can.
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I think you are working in extremes. I don't think I suggested "sweeping away" teams. But general chance creation is terrible, patterns of play are no longer there, we are relying on individual brilliance again, the midfielders are passive and slow to second balls and then you have the defenders on top.

I think we got what we deserved against Sheffield United and West Brom. I think Everton was tough luck but West Ham was also a game where it was neither here nor there, and Burnley too in fact.

I mean the last game against WBA who let in goals for fun, our XG was what, 0.45. I never said "sweep teams away every game" but you know, don't play shit for 90% of the last 5-6 games. There is an in-between expectation from a performance standpoint that he's not meeting.
 
Robbie Boy said:
For me there's about 5 groups of Ole fans. There's the 'Ole ins' and 'Ole outs': Both of these are utterly hysterical and resort to wumming and skewing stats to suit their agenda. Then there's the ones who support him but maybe see too many positives and the ones that support him but maybe see too many negatives. Then of course there's the flip-flopper who'll go into any camp depending on results. We all pretty much fit into one of the above.

For me, the extreme ins and outs are best ignored. The other two groups have some good intelligent debate even though they may not always agree on everything. You certainly come across as rational and I haven't seen you engaging in any wummy behaviour. I've had some good debate with you even if your outlook on Ole is more positive than mine. But the ones that swarm in here after a win with retorts like "take that haters" or the ones that swarm in after a draw/defeat calling him all sorts, are all best ignored. Neither have any intention of having a sensible debate.

I agree that some of the opinions are hysterical and hyperbolic, but this is from both extreme sides. The skewing of stats and selective stats to suit an agenda is tedious and counterproductive.
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Stop talking sense Robbie.
 
Robbie Boy said:
I'm waiting for a poster to come along saying they're the perfect fan and not in any camp :lol:

Wana be the first?
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I was waiting for someone to ask. Yes I am the prefect fan that was foretold. My fandom is a beacon. A beacon of excellent balance and sense.
 
RedSky said:
I'm curious what he means by skewing stats though.
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It's the skewing of everything and anything from both sides. It's pretty obvious, just take a look through the thread. Maybe 'stats' wasn't the correct phraseology to use. I more meant saying the squad is all world class/is all bang average, to suit your side of an agenda. Talking about calendar years when it suits vs seasons, only using points totals when it matters. That type of thing. Stats wasn't the correct word.
 
Ish said:
Think he probably meant selective stats, cherry picking etc. to suit an agenda.
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Hope you're keeping well mate :)

Yes spot on! I've reworded it better in a later post. Stats, in hindsight, was a poor choice of wording.
 
Mainoldo said:
We literally have Rashford and Martial from the LVG reign.

We have Scott McTominay from the Jose reign. Those three are very important to how Ole see’s us in the future. We also forget there was some key improvements in certain areas under other management.

We seen Mike Smalling. De Gea turned into a world class keeper. Valencia became a competent right back and respected captain. There’s always pros and cons in everything. It’s personal preference that decide people’s views. I haven’t liked any of our managers. Except what I hoped Jose was going to bring at the beginning.. but it doesn’t mean I can’t give them credit to what they did.
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The club was in disarray, Mainoldo.

We were ONLY a first-team.

Have you seriously watched our Under-23s over the past year?

Are you aware we have snapped up all of the best team talent from around the world in the last year; snapping guys up from under the noses of Barcelona and Real Madrid. Have you actually looked outside the first team?

I've said this to you before, I think it was you anyway.

You would have sacked Alex Ferguson in 1988 and you would have sacked Matt Busby in 1948.... Leaving this club practically trophyless... that's how smart you are. That's why your opinion holds zero value.
 
RedSky said:
We've lost 4 PL games in the last 38 games.
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We were the best performing team in England in the entirety of 2020.

We also have the youngest squad of any of the "top six" by two whole years.

We are fecking second in the league, in the midst of a five year plan under Ole; outpointing all of our rivals except for Man City who are coming toward the end of a 10-year planned reign in the next two seasons... No club is better primed to become kings of England after Guardiola stands down than us.... But we only drew with WBA last Sunday so best we sack our manager and start all over again...
 
VP89 said:
I think you are working in extremes. I don't think I suggested "sweeping away" teams. But general chance creation is terrible, patterns of play are no longer there, we are relying on individual brilliance again, the midfielders are passive and slow to second balls and then you have the defenders on top.

I think we got what we deserved against Sheffield United and West Brom. I think Everton was tough luck but West Ham was also a game where it was neither here nor there, and Burnley too in fact.

I mean the last game against WBA who let in goals for fun, our XG was what, 0.45. I never said "sweep teams away every game" but you know, don't play shit for 90% of the last 5-6 games. There is an in-between expectation from a performance standpoint that he's not meeting.
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You say I'm working in extremes, then go on to say we "play shit for 90% of the last 5-6 games" and chuck in some vague references to relying on individual brilliance and passive midfielders.

Yes, the attack has been sluggish lately. Martial has been out of form, as has Rashford and Greenwood for most of the season, and recently Bruno. We have still been scoring goals though, goals which should be seeing us through games if not for simple defensive errors. And that's my point, that the defence is letting us down.

What's the point in putting 3 past Everton if the defence is going to switch off and let them pull it back. What's the point in having a gameplan against West Brom of all teams if it goes out the window 90 seconds into the game because the CB got easily outmuscled. It's demoralising for us and galvanising for the opposition. Defence is the problem at the moment.
 
GoldTrafford99 said:
The club was in disarray, Mainoldo.

We were ONLY a first-team.

Have you seriously watched our Under-23s over the past year?

Are you aware we have snapped up all of the best team talent from around the world in the last year; snapping guys up from under the noses of Barcelona and Real Madrid. Have you actually looked outside the first team?

I've said this to you before, I think it was you anyway.

You would have sacked Alex Ferguson in 1988 and you would have sacked Matt Busby in 1948.... Leaving this club practically trophyless... that's how smart you are. That's why your opinion holds zero value.
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No I can’t say I have you know. I’ll watch a few games. But unless I’ve missed something we have been doing this for the past 5 years. We picked up Chong from Feyenoord. Troure came from PSG I believe.. and there’s probably a few other names that I’ve missed. It’s been a change in policy that has kicked on ever since Moyes tried to change things all the way until Nicky Butt took over. I highly doubt these are Solskjear decisions otherwise what does Butt do?

If Ole has implemented something that you know about and I can see actual evidence of then please send it over. I do remember LVG being very big on the academy plays the same formation as the first team. It’s a strong Ajax philosophy and a makes sense as if you are a manager and need to call on the youth. It helps if they are already aware of the ideologies you expect when stepping into the first team. Pointless fact but just gives you an idea of what I mean when I say give me some evidence of Ole’s imprint.

In 1988 I probably would have been a break dancer. In 1948 I probably would have thought doing a comb over to cover my bald patch was cool. There’s a lot of things I would probably do differently then to now. Let’s try and stay on a reasonable topic.
 
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Robbie Boy said:
Hope you're keeping well mate :)

Yes spot on! I've reworded it better in a later post. Stats, in hindsight, was a poor choice of wording.
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I am well man. Watching our man Lingard light up WHU! :drool:

All good. How have you been? I'm probably in your "50/50 camp, but tend to lean more towards out" - so call it the 49/51 camp :lol:
 
I'm pretty sure we totally restructured our whole approach to signing youth players when Marcel Bout took on the role as Head of Global Scouting around 2017. I remember we hired a crazy amount of scouts around that time.

Giving Ole credit for this is odd. However, I do think he has pushed for more youth signings and deserves credit for that. We have signed a-lot of exciting young players since the end of last season and our youth teams look in good shape.
 
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Ish said:
I am well man. Watching our man Lingard light up WHU! :drool:

All good. How have you been? I'm probably in your "50/50 camp, but tend to lean more towards out" - so call it the 49/51 camp :lol:
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All good mate bar the never ending lockdowns and still working from home nearly a year on!

Haha, I'm with you. I support him, but I admit I am definitely one of the ones who would veer on the side of negativity, and I amen't totally sold on him. That being said, I'm ok to see him take us into next season once we don't capitulate from now until May. By then though, after more time and investment, I would expect improvements and less excuses. If the Board are supporting him for the long term, they need to show it in the summer transfer window.
 
Zen86 said:
There's also those who like to impose their superiority by coming into the thread and regularly telling everyone how impartial and balanced they are.
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I’m firmly stick myself in the arsehole who gets kicks out of calling out bullshit crew, and admittedly I enjoy calling out the Ole-disciple nonsense much more, they are a funnier bunch. So there’s my bias.
 
It's the bunch who says he has done better than any manager after saf. No he hasn't. Not yet. He has not been the worst either. Moyes was the worst but as others have said what if he was given more time? I dread to think about it.
The best Ole has done so far is getting third place. This points business is a load of bollocks. If you win the PL they don't say that you won the league with 60 points or anything like that. You are the champions. Jose has got two cups and second place. LVG the fa cup. LVG would have been sacked even if he made the CL spot.
So Ole needs to win something this season.
In five years time others would have invested too and got better. you are as good as your last game as SAF says.
 
Foxbatt said:
It's the bunch who says he has done better than any manager after saf. No he hasn't. Not yet. He has not been the worst either. Moyes was the worst but as others have said what if he was given more time? I dread to think about it.
The best Ole has done so far is getting third place. This points business is a load of bollocks. If you win the PL they don't say that you won the league with 60 points or anything like that. You are the champions. Jose has got two cups and second place. LVG the fa cup. LVG would have been sacked even if he made the CL spot.
So Ole needs to win something this season.
In five years time others would have invested too and got better. you are as good as your last game as SAF says.
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Agree he has done better than Moyes. Agree that he hasn't done as well as Jose yet. But I would say he has done better than LVG. LVG won a trophy and yes was a better coach but his signings were the most atrocious out of any manager post Fergie. That tips it in favour of Ole whose signings are decent to great other than James.
 
Zen86 said:
You say I'm working in extremes, then go on to say we "play shit for 90% of the last 5-6 games" and chuck in some vague references to relying on individual brilliance and passive midfielders.
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It's not vague. Our tempo across the pitch was visibly poor and our chance creation was poor. I'm being quite descriptive here, Martial wasn't moving enough, Rashford wasn't effective from the right position (which Ole continually plays him in) and Greenwood looked the only player up for it.
Zen86 said:
Yes, the attack has been sluggish lately. Martial has been out of form, as has Rashford and Greenwood for most of the season, and recently Bruno. We have still been scoring goals though, goals which should be seeing us through games if not for simple defensive errors. And that's my point, that the defence is letting us down.
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So pointing to the team, Rashford looks off the mark, Martial too, Bruno on top and then both centre backs. That's as a minimum, right? So there comes a time where you think OK 5 of our outfield players are playing poorly for an extended period.
Normally, you'd put that down to a blip of course. But this the nth time it's happening to Ole, which is why it's a concern. If there are chronic cycles where half the outfield players look off the mark for extended periods, the manager becomes accountable for it.

Whilst I agree we score goals as a general season consensus, the point is of late, we are too blunt in creation and scoring against the bread and butter teams again.
Zen86 said:
What's the point in putting 3 past Everton if the defence is going to switch off and let them pull it back. What's the point in having a gameplan against West Brom of all teams if it goes out the window 90 seconds into the game because the CB got easily outmuscled. It's demoralising for us and galvanising for the opposition. Defence is the problem at the moment.
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And that's why I never named Everton as an example. I'm naming Sheffield United, Burnley, West Ham and West Brom as examples. I guess you can chuck the extremely blunt 0-0 snoozefest against Arsenal in that list too.
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
Agree he has done better than Moyes. Agree that he hasn't done as well as Jose yet. But I would say he has done better than LVG. LVG won a trophy and yes was a better coach but his signings were the most atrocious out of any manager post Fergie. That tips it in favour of Ole whose signings are decent to great other than James.
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According to LGV most of the signing weren't his.
 
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