He made mistakes. However:
1) He could have been benched.
2) We got 2 out of 15 points in the last 5 matches. No player can be as bad as to have that effect. It was a collective effort at fecking things up.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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1) He could have been benched.
2) We got 2 out of 15 points in the last 5 matches. No player can be as bad as to have that effect. It was a collective effort at fecking things up.
Interesting when we finished 6th with Mourinho we had 66 points and 19 wins. If we win our two remaining games with Ole we will end up 3rd with 68 points and 19 wins.
Cost us points against both Arsenal and Chelsea. That was the end of the top 4 hopes. The final two games were dead rubbers thanks to his howlers in the previous games. Yeah we should have won those two final games but it wouldn't have been good enough for top 4 anyway.
Also was piss poor against Barcelona away. Any momentum/feel-good factor we had from the PSG game went straight out the window with that shocking goal he conceded to Messi. Not saying we would have progressed but it doesn't help when your goalie just gifts goals to Messi.
I agree he should have been benched today though. Extremely poor decision to play him. And that’s not knee jerk just because of his mistakes but Romero has been excellent whenever called upon this season and he's the perfect cup keeper.
The squad is shite. Massive drop in quality from starting 11. We need to strengthen.
We finished 5 points below Spurs. Win those 2 matches, and we are 1 point ahead of them and reach UCL. And it isn't that they dropped the final match, after all, had Arsenal won the last match, it would have been Arsenal not Spurs who would have got the 4th place, so Spurs fought till the end. The fact that we got only 2 points out of possible 15 while fighting for UCL was nothing short of a travesty.
To be fair, Lampard has not dropped Kepa enough to prevent him from fecking up many of their matches. There's a reason why they don't have top 4 confirmed yet.
Got it wrong this time and let it be for 45+ mins.
That is so annoying, not the first time Ole does this.
If not for Bailly's injury, I doubt Ole will make immediate half-time changes to the system.
I mean, James is basically useless in that system against Chelsea's system, and Ole let him play further 15 mins roughly.
Rubbish.
Lampard won this time tactically.
Ole's starting tactics and line-up are actually spot-on, I mean right idea, we beat Chelsea last time with similar settings, but Lampard decided to set-things up differently this time and unfortunately our manager is slow to response.
That is so annoying, not the first time Ole does this.
If not for Bailly's injury, I doubt Ole will make immediate half-time changes to the system.
I mean, James is basically useless in that system against Chelsea's system, and Ole let him play further 15 mins roughly.
Rubbish.
Lampard won this time tactically.
Ole's starting tactics and line-up are actually spot-on, I mean right idea, we beat Chelsea last time with similar settings, but Lampard decided to set-things up differently this time and unfortunately our manager is slow to response.
Are people still blindly adamant that Ole's coaching and main system 4231 are good enough?What're the excuses cards this time?
Fatigue?
Injuries?
lack squad depth?
Lampard exploited two of our biggest problems obvious in this season.
1. How to handle organised high press.
2. How to break organised low blocks = park the bus defense.
Ours players.
1. Rubbish again, no shape at all and players don't know what to do and voila, Chelsea stole a lot of our possession. Even with 5 defenders at the back and 3 midfielders, we don't know how to control and keep possession.
2. Rubbish again. It relied on players individual prowess especially #10 Bruno in unlocking it which unfortunately his form in this game is poor.
Just so people think I'm against Ole or I'm Ole-out camp.
I'm not.
Ole should stay and continue his work but he should also be aware of his weaknesses, as does many of the Ole-in camps who just don't want to admit Ole has his weaknesses.
Get a new top class attacking coach to help him for next season and maybe consider to change the shit 4231 system since his idea is largely based on prioritizing individual prowess than tactical instructions to individuals, therefore use the best system that help best the players. Better build-up and possession play at the back with 433.
Might be same wins but the football was pretty dire under Jose, 4th or not this year at least I got that enthusiasm back watching UTD since FEB
Good summary. I would add decision-making regarding spending of money as well.
What're the excuses cards this time?
Fatigue?
Injuries?
lack squad depth?
Lampard exploited two of our biggest problems obvious in this season.
1. How to handle organised high press.
2. How to break organised low blocks = park the bus defense.
Ours players.
1. Rubbish again, no shape at all and players don't know what to do and voila, Chelsea stole a lot of our possession. Even with 5 defenders at the back and 3 midfielders, we don't know how to control and keep possession.
2. Rubbish again. It relied on players individual prowess especially #10 Bruno in unlocking it which unfortunately his form in this game is poor.
Just so people think I'm against Ole or I'm Ole-out camp.
I'm not.
Ole should stay and continue his work but he should also be aware of his weaknesses, as does many of the Ole-in camps who just don't want to admit Ole has his weaknesses.
Get a new top class attacking coach to help him for next season and maybe consider to change the shit 4231 system since his idea is largely based on prioritizing individual prowess than tactical instructions to individuals, therefore use the best system that help best the players. Better build-up and possession play at the back with 433.
Not going to bash ole for today's loss and suddenly pretend FA cup was the most important agenda for us now. I am disappointed with our performance once again though. Slow start, zero urgency is not helping us. Sirely cannot keep on blaming fatigue. Yes we had 48 hours less rest in comparison to chelsea but what about the slow start against Palace, Villa, Soton, Bournemouth. All others are also playing similar amount of games so fatigue solely doesn't make sense. I feel Ole likes a propee preparation for his games and the same thing happened last seaso when games started coming thick and fast he faltered. He has to make sure we finish the race this time and not blow up again like last season. Also, I hope we take the europa league seriously. We must win a trophy and get the winning mentality on board now. Top 4 alone will be a decent season but top 4 with europa would a good base for the next season.
I don't get the criticism. Ole has shown he can produce free flowing football (albeit against weaker opposition) but that has been our problem in the past. His record against the top 6 is fantastic. We lost today but that's due to rotation, and individual errors.
We need signings. We need a CB who is comfortable with the ball at his feet as well as another top quality CM.
Give the man some time. He deserves it.
We need signings. We need a CB who is comfortable with the ball at his feet as well as another top quality CM.
Give the man some time. He deserves it.
It's last season all over again. Ole finds hist best 11, we go on a flying run and then it all comes crashing down due to overplaying. People argue it's due to our lack of quality outside the first 11 and while that may be true, there are certain techniques to mitigate the lack of skill in our squad players, namely an attacking system.
It is like I said from the beginning, we still don't have a coherent way of attacking, it's all down to individual brilliance. And it works if you have Rashford, Greenwood, Martial, Pogba and Bruno fit and firing. It also works if one or two are not on par, like when Bruno has an off game, Martial and Rashford do their thing at least. It doesn't work when those five are knackered from playing every 3 days for over a month. And it also doesn't work with players who are not that skilled and are given no directions.
You really shouldn't need 5 top attackers on the pitch at all times to beat the minnows in the league. I mean, Liverpool won the league and CL with a midfield of mediocre grafters and a striker that doesn't score goals for crying out loud.
We won't be having squad depth like City for the foreseeable future, so it's on Ole to get at least a semblance of coherence out of our squad players, and imo that should really be possible. Maybe get another attacking coach in or something like that and stop coaching like you're Ferguson, just without the squad depth accumulated over years of service.
It is like I said from the beginning, we still don't have a coherent way of attacking, it's all down to individual brilliance. And it works if you have Rashford, Greenwood, Martial, Pogba and Bruno fit and firing. It also works if one or two are not on par, like when Bruno has an off game, Martial and Rashford do their thing at least. It doesn't work when those five are knackered from playing every 3 days for over a month. And it also doesn't work with players who are not that skilled and are given no directions.
You really shouldn't need 5 top attackers on the pitch at all times to beat the minnows in the league. I mean, Liverpool won the league and CL with a midfield of mediocre grafters and a striker that doesn't score goals for crying out loud.
We won't be having squad depth like City for the foreseeable future, so it's on Ole to get at least a semblance of coherence out of our squad players, and imo that should really be possible. Maybe get another attacking coach in or something like that and stop coaching like you're Ferguson, just without the squad depth accumulated over years of service.
Totally agree with you, we have been starting slow and getting the result, this time that backfired and it was in a game Ole didn't seem to care that much but we can't afford to choose which games are priority and which aren't, this is MU and we have to keep a winning mentality in every game, and the reason we gave Ole a chance is because he was getting the results by representing that idea in our game, to fight til the end and he's the symbol of that thought, and I didn't see that in todays defeat, instead I saw formation, first IX of someone who didn't take this game serious
What're the excuses cards this time?
Fatigue?
Injuries?
lack squad depth?
Lampard exploited two of our biggest problems obvious in this season.
1. How to handle organised high press.
2. How to break organised low blocks = park the bus defense.
Ours players.
1. Rubbish again, no shape at all and players don't know what to do and voila, Chelsea stole a lot of our possession. Even with 5 defenders at the back and 3 midfielders, we don't know how to control and keep possession.
2. Rubbish again. It relied on players individual prowess especially #10 Bruno in unlocking it which unfortunately his form in this game is poor.
Just so people think I'm against Ole or I'm Ole-out camp.
I'm not.
Ole should stay and continue his work but he should also be aware of his weaknesses, as does many of the Ole-in camps who just don't want to admit Ole has his weaknesses.
Get a new top class attacking coach to help him for next season and maybe consider to change the shit 4231 system since his idea is largely based on prioritizing individual prowess than tactical instructions to individuals, therefore use the best system that help best the players. Better build-up and possession play at the back with 433.
Knee jerk at best, just because we lost.
What about the other times we won brilliantly against top 6? 19 games unbeaten? We've beaten Chelsea many times this season. Suddenly they are miles better? Feck that.
Suddenly our players are rubbish, you must be having a good time bashing when we finally lost.
You would be daft to assume fatigue isn't an issue. Chelsea were clearly on the higher gear, we're very lackluster and fecking slow due to the soreness/fatigue.
A question on Ole - how come Chelsea were the ones employing the high press and we were the one struggling to react to it, rather than the other way round? Takes me back to the times when we got a bit of a schooling from Barcelona and Altetic Bilbao on progressive football (completely uderstandable given SAF was in the fag end of his United career). But 7 years on, and we're still playing teams employing a more progressive style than us, and trying to react to it.
Because we’re in a period of an unprecedented intensity in terms of getting through games after teams have been unable to train properly. Its clear after watching a number of teams that tiredness is affecting players. With us being in the FA Cup we’ve had the maximum amount of games too. It seemed obvious to me at least that yesterday was a tired performance and Chelsea’s extra rest made a massive difference to the outcome.
Startling fact that one. It’s reallly not been a great season in its entirety.
If we start next season with only a few incoming I can’t see much difference; we’ll go on runs then be stopped in our tracks due to quality issues both on the pitch & sidline.
Wednesday is huge for the man.
It was an off day. Ole didn't get it right yesterday and all his plans backfired miserably. Of course, DDG didn't help either and highlighted the glaring mistakes even more. Here is my two cents:
- This was bound to happen. I've been ranting about resting the best XI for the past 3 days on various threads. Playing DDG, Maguire, AWB, Bruno, Rashford.. was mindless given that the others have played in the cup till now. I know what Ole was going for, but unfortunately it backfired as expected. Pretty sure the back-up players would've taken it as a challenge and not perform much worse than what happened.
- Changing the formation and trying to play from the back. We changed what was working for us these past few games - why would we do that?
- We played according what Chelsea would do, which unfortunately played into their hands. It seemed like a cautious approach, it seemed we were apprehensive about Chelsea and overthinking the basics.
It is really now on us to bounce back from this. Just forget it happened and move on. If we have indeed progressed from where we were - this is it! Now is the time to show it. The old United would comeback in the next game with swagger. Hoping that is the case.
- This was bound to happen. I've been ranting about resting the best XI for the past 3 days on various threads. Playing DDG, Maguire, AWB, Bruno, Rashford.. was mindless given that the others have played in the cup till now. I know what Ole was going for, but unfortunately it backfired as expected. Pretty sure the back-up players would've taken it as a challenge and not perform much worse than what happened.
- Changing the formation and trying to play from the back. We changed what was working for us these past few games - why would we do that?
- We played according what Chelsea would do, which unfortunately played into their hands. It seemed like a cautious approach, it seemed we were apprehensive about Chelsea and overthinking the basics.
It is really now on us to bounce back from this. Just forget it happened and move on. If we have indeed progressed from where we were - this is it! Now is the time to show it. The old United would comeback in the next game with swagger. Hoping that is the case.
Off the top of my head Chelsea, Arsenal second leg, Sheffield 1st leg, Southampton and City cup game. It's like whenever a team set up tactically well and organised against us, we end up being completed outclassed and it's painful to watch
Or maybe when we lose the initial and final conclusion is "teams set up tactically well and organisation was good".
We are not that good team as we are not consistent. Every team that loses, in most cases you can say they are done by opponent tactics. It's not something that's applicable only for us, it's for every club in the world.
His coaching still looks pretty basic.
We often struggle with opposition's organized high pressing, while our high press looks disorganized and passable.
Also I still don't understand why he insists on having two ball-playing centrebecks with below average pace when our starting DM (who is too immobile and isn't particularly press resistent) drops too deep to collect the ball anyway. As a result he doesn't utilise Maguire's and Lindelof's passing and ability to drive forward enough to compensate their defensive shortcomings. De Gea average kicking doesn't help to build from the back as well.
Our fullbecks gradually improve their attacking game, but with Maguire-Matic-Lindelof trio they have no enough protection in opponents quick transitions and counterattacks.
We often struggle with opposition's organized high pressing, while our high press looks disorganized and passable.
Also I still don't understand why he insists on having two ball-playing centrebecks with below average pace when our starting DM (who is too immobile and isn't particularly press resistent) drops too deep to collect the ball anyway. As a result he doesn't utilise Maguire's and Lindelof's passing and ability to drive forward enough to compensate their defensive shortcomings. De Gea average kicking doesn't help to build from the back as well.
Our fullbecks gradually improve their attacking game, but with Maguire-Matic-Lindelof trio they have no enough protection in opponents quick transitions and counterattacks.
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That is something which is going under the radar. Bruno is excellent deal but 150mil spent on other 3? James was a gamble for 15 mil which didn't work and no need to talk about him but 140mil spent on AWB and Maguire? Are they really good buys? Neither of them is bad buy and both upgraded this squad, no doubt about it, but for 140mil euros you would expect much bigger impact that they did.
Well I didn't mention every game we lost or drew did I? The team's and the games I mentioned we were tactically outclassed and dominated
You mentioned Southampton, not sure how the tactically outclass us, we created plenty of chances and should have finished the game. They pressed well and didn't let us play our game, that's for sure but they barely created anything and we created more than enough good chances. They scored 1 from set piece, 1 from Pogba's mistake and there was one chance where De Gea made a save. Apart from that I don't remember them creating any chances.
You also said " It's like whenever a team set up tactically well and organised against us, we end up being completed outclassed and it's painful to watch " does this mean whenever we smash the teams they didn't set up well tactically?
Almost every game is a tactical challenge, few games we do well and few we don't as we are not consistent team. Too hot and cold. When we are on our game, we make these tactically good teams look not good enough.
We were tactically outclassed by those teams and in those games I mentioned. You can go watch the games again because they really don't need defending
We weren't against Southampton and that's not even the point. I'm asking everytime opponents are tactically good and organized we drop points or whenever we drop points these things are discussed?
Our record against top 6 is good, it can't be coincidence that they were not set up tactically well against us.
Or the reason for this is, we are not consistent team, nothing to do with " It's like whenever a team set up tactically well and organised against us, we end up being completed outclassed "
| Competition | Goals conceded in 2017/18 | Goals conceded in 2018/19 | Goals conceded in 2019/20 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Super Cup | 2 (1) | 0 (0) | 0 (0) |
| PL | 28 (38) | 54 (38) | 35 (36) |
| CL/EL | 5 (8) | 10 (10) | 3 (9) |
| FA Cup | 2 (6) | 3 (4) | 4 (6) |
| LC | 3 (3) | 2 (1) | 5 (5) |
| Total | 40 (56) | 69 (53) | 47 (56) |
We've played 3 more games as compared to last season and have conceded 22 less goals! Add to that, even when compared to 2017-18, we're just 7 goals worse, and I don't think I need to elaborate on how Dave was the difference between us finishing 2nd and us finishing outside top 4 that season.
I'm not talking about losing or winning or dropping points. I'm talking about being dominated and outclassed when teams set up tactically well against us. And I personally think the Southampton game applies here because we played into their hands. Probably the game I've seen us struggle the most to play out from the back. If you don't think so then that's your opinion
Fatigue was definitely a factor. It doesn't disappear when you are playing games every 3 days. It gets worse.
Totally agree. Surprised it is not obvious to everyone.
I think this is the only fair criticism that could be leveled at Ole. He should have rested our first team.
Easy to say with hindsight though. If he had lost with a second string then fans would be saying he should've started Bruno etc.
Ole is to blame for the way team try and play from the back. I'm sorry but we just don't have the players to do that. It's so obvious.
I've see it happen in nearly every game when the opposition press early and it sets panic through out the whole team. It then takes ages for Utd to get a grip of the game. This is why it looks like we start slowly.
West Ham will be exactly the same.
I've see it happen in nearly every game when the opposition press early and it sets panic through out the whole team. It then takes ages for Utd to get a grip of the game. This is why it looks like we start slowly.
West Ham will be exactly the same.
Need to get through this week somehow and then give them a couple of days off to recharge their batteries for the EL. Some migjt be carrying knocks as well as tiredness so it should help them. The depth of the squad is definitely a problem though. Which is why they are being flogged to death. He can't decide between Pereira and Lingard, well sell them both. Neither is good enough.
The worry is that Leicester have a full week off before the showdown next week. I think he should leave out Rashford, AWB and Maguire against West Ham as those were the three players that looked most gassed yesterday and had played the most minutes this season. Strong argument to leave out Bruno too.
I think if we lose with entirely 2nd string it'll shows where Ole priorities lies. Fair enough if top 4 deemed more important but yesterday was nor here or there. We are not in the position of luxury to choose everything in front of us and it showed. Our squad is still incomplete.
Losing with mixed line up and unclear gameplan always harder to accept than losing with entirely 2nd string.
Only thing I don't understand is what's happening with Ighalo? Since he signed new loan contract he barely featured, yesterday was great chance to give him start.
Oh and DDG should've been dropped for Romero as well.
Oh and DDG should've been dropped for Romero as well.
After 2 performance, I have confidence in Fosu Mensah to replace AWB for next game. With Bailly injury and them having Antonio, we can't rest Maguire.
I have no confidence in our squad players replacing any of our first 11. Only have confidence on Fred and McT to replace midfielders.
James is best on the left so he could replace Rashford or you could start Ighalo up top and play Martial on the left. Pogba would have to take responsibility for the Bruno role.
Yeah tbf I didnt think Rashford is tired. He looks fittest player in our squad. Bruno looks tired. Also if we can smash West Ham, then our top 4 will be more or less confirmed.
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