A serious question to everyone, now with Ole looking likely to get sacked, can anyone name me a manager who did very well in recruitment but failed to get results, ultimately got sacked because of that? Just curious.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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First it was continuous comparisons with Fergie's early days, now it's Klopp every day. I wonder what is next for Ole supporters, comparisons with Pep or Zidane?
What was Sir Matt’s start with us like? Someone might say he could become the next Busby given enough time and backing.
behave.
How is any of that wrong? His best stint was at Molde, unless you consider getting relegated with Cardiff and then promptly sacked more impressive?
Molde have won the league since he's left.
I can't wait to read this thread in one years time when we're actually a good side and Ole has gotten one more window.
Maybe we could merge threads? Three different Ole threads essentially talking about the same thing. It can be difficult to follow and same people are making the same arguments in different threads from both sides. I don't see the point in that.
@Damien can this be done as it is becoming increasingly annoying for many posters that all Redcafe had become is talk of ole
Sorry Andy!! I rate you more though. You actually started games
Basically, if the board let Pochettino slip through their fingers, so they can continue with Ole’s ‘rebuild, then they are exactly as idiotic as we have all feared.
I don’t think Woodward is a bad person or anything, he obviously believes he’s making the right decisions. He’s just not football minded at all. I don’t think it’s about saving money either as I think he’s going to give Ole a chunk of it in the summer.
This really is depressing. What a bunch of fecking clowns.
edit: just read what Woodward actually said which is very ambiguous regarding Ole overseeing 2020 summer rebuild. And saw the pictures of pochettino with Ashton, this is very hopeful. Apologies to Ole fans but I’m now sick of the sight of him as Man Utd manager.
I don’t think Woodward is a bad person or anything, he obviously believes he’s making the right decisions. He’s just not football minded at all. I don’t think it’s about saving money either as I think he’s going to give Ole a chunk of it in the summer.
This really is depressing. What a bunch of fecking clowns.
edit: just read what Woodward actually said which is very ambiguous regarding Ole overseeing 2020 summer rebuild. And saw the pictures of pochettino with Ashton, this is very hopeful. Apologies to Ole fans but I’m now sick of the sight of him as Man Utd manager.
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Hilarious coming from a Liverpool fan considering that lot thinks Dirk fecking Kuyt is a legend and all he won there was a league cup.
Actually it's hilarious that once you don't rate a person as a good football manager, people start to rewrite their playing days.
If Ole wasn't ManUtd manager, none of these posters would have questioned his legacy at ManUtd.
Woody has his flaws. Many flaws. But regarding managers he had some good( and bad) decisions.
He waits too long to sack them and he hired Solskjaer far too early. I think that his plan was very good after he sacked Jose. Club legend as interim and at the end of the season sign new manager. But he fecked up there under the pressure from pundits and fans and gave Ole contract too early.
But he did sign LVG when LVG was best option on the market. He did sign best manager around after LVG and he did secure his signing far before he sacked LVG.
So i believe( maybe it is just desperation) that he has already talked with Poch and just waiting end of season to avoid paying fees to Ole and Spurs.
I hope.....i mean, nobody can't be that blind and go with Ole into next season.
Absolutely no reason for Pochettino to be hanging around with Neil Ashton. Well, there's no reason for Ashton to be hanging around with anyone to be honest but even less so, a manager we've been linked with. It seems Ole's getting until May then (most likely, and perhaps unfortunately) moving upstairs to be DOF.
If that happens I'm done with this club
Even if he's being prospected by us, why would he have any business with a PR rep?
Don't know about Custis, but Poch is a big fan of Bielsa. And since they've been spotted at a Leeds game, it's safe to assume that they were watching his side in action... at least Poch was.
The bigger question is what was our PR guy dong there? I seriously doubt that he traveled all the way to Leeds for a quick chat with Poch.
It was a potentially pivotal game for Leeds if I'm not mistaken? So I can imagine some attraction by the football folk. Ashton may have been there for recreational reasons or other unrelated to United.
It just doesn't make any sense, it's he hasn't had 4 years and hundreds of millions to do a cultural reset or anything? Where on earth is his Everton DNA?? He didn't even score a goal in a final 20 years ago for the club!
Gonna have to think on this..
Maybe he is much more than that, you never know with Woodward and his cronies - for example, Judge is officially our Head of Corporate Development but he doubles up as our Chief transfer negotiator.
I know, it goes against all logic doesn't it? Ancelotti hasn't had numerous transfer windows, a couple of hundred millions worth of signings and yet his team have gone pretty much from strength to strength since he took over. And yes, I don't understand how he's managed this when he never played for Everton himself, either?
It's almost as though being a good football manager has got something to do with how your team does. But that can't be true.
Who would have known? A better manager getting good results shocker and now we are going to be hearing about how Everton have a much better squad than ours, at this rate you'd think we were recently promoted from the Championship.
Possibly new manager bounce. Ole had a good run when he came in. If they stay above us it's a fair point(and they quite easily could)
The comparisons with Klopp are beyond silly.
I have been very busy so I haven't had much time.
Is it possible to look at Ole and Klopp PPG index in the league?
I am not 100% sure but I can confidently say there would be one difference.
Klopp's index would be an upward trend with each game while Ole's is on a downward trend.
That small detail makes a huge difference. Look at what was happening on the pitch, it was clear where Klopp's team was going. You're lying to yourself if you say you can say the same about us.
I have been very busy so I haven't had much time.
Is it possible to look at Ole and Klopp PPG index in the league?
I am not 100% sure but I can confidently say there would be one difference.
Klopp's index would be an upward trend with each game while Ole's is on a downward trend.
That small detail makes a huge difference. Look at what was happening on the pitch, it was clear where Klopp's team was going. You're lying to yourself if you say you can say the same about us.
We have a game in hand + new manager bounce. Silva was a dead man walking for awhile and looked to have lost the dressing room. Someone suggested Ancelotti would last 2 years max before given the boot in another thread so we'll see.
It's the same nonsense from the usual suspects every time a new manager wins his first few games. Before Ancelotti they were preaching about how Arteta has transformed Arsenal within weeks despite the fact he has only won one league game in his two months. Before Arteta it was Pearson, Potter and Farke. When Ancelotti's bounce is over they'll jump onto whoever the next guy is to win a couple of games in a row.
Whilst I generally agree, we wait and see, it doesn't change the point that regardless of new manager bounce, their form beforehand should have meant we should be well clear of them regardless, but it's a testament to how poor we've been that we are 11 points from the relegation zone and they've managed to overtake us, hell, throw in last seasons Championship team that are playing better football than us, and are above us in the league, and i dare any Ole supporter to tell me Sheffield have a better squad than us.
Didn't, considered Rush, Gerrard as legends. Didn't even put Carragher in there.
He's actually very level headed. Said from that era, Giggs, Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Schmeichel were legends.
Said Butt, Berg, Johnson and Yorke weren't legends either. Seemed to make sense.
Haha, I know man. That gets conveniently overlooked doesn't it. Slate other managers for being beneficiaries of a new-manager-bounce while pretending the man they are defending wasn't appointed based on that alone...…and has since proven that it was that alone!
Well, they obviously aren't. Butt is the only one who might be considered, but as a player he's a lesser version of Scholes/Giggs in every sense - clearly doesn't make it as a "legend" when compared to those two.
There's quite a difference between those players and Ole, though, as anyone should realize. He made a name for himself as a super sub - and lived up to his reputation on the biggest stage. His '99 goal is one of the most iconic moments in the history of Manchester United - and the player who scored it was a fan favourite from day one (pretty much) with a reputation for being loyal, a team player, an allround decent bloke, etc. He played for us for more than a decade and then stayed on as a coach.
Of course he's a United legend - it's utterly silly to argue otherwise. And nobody would do it either if it weren't for the fact that he's now struggling as our current manager.
I would say pump the brakes a little bit on the Ancelotti praise. As United fans we of all people should know what a manager does in his first few months is not necessarily indicative of any long term success.
That was 90 % of my point. People in this thread go way over the top every time a new manager wins a couple of games, and use that as a stick to beat Ole with, completely ignoring that the manager they're bashing in fact had a new manager bounce lasting 3 months. There are thousands of sticks to beat Ole with (rightly so) but arguments like 'they actually have a style within weeks', 'this proves you don't need 6 windows to win a game' etc. are completely nonsensical. Anyone failing to see the irony in those arguments must have lived under a rock during Ole's first couple of months here.
Way to completely miss the point. I've said Ole is out of his depth a million times. Nowhere did I 'defend' him. Nowhere did I 'overlook' anything. This post pretty much sums up the majority of the regulars in this thread. Put words into others' mouths, create pathetic straw man arguments and then act holier than thou.
This "rebuilding" shit which will last few years( Ole's excuse) is a big BS.
18 months ago we had team which finished second and had players in their best age. Only Young and Valencia were over 30y old. We basically needed 3 or 4 proven players and we would be title challenger. Even if Mourinho was a problem we could have hired proven manager and stay up. Without trashing reputation and without risking losing money from sponsors because of poor results.
We could have just do what was logical. Sell deadwood and buy couple of players.
What Ole did in reality? He sold players who were good enough for this squad( Lukaku, Alexis, Fellaini, Herrera), kept deadwood( Jones, Mata, Lingard) and spent 200 mil on new players to make this squad even worse.
18 months ago we had team which finished second and had players in their best age. Only Young and Valencia were over 30y old. We basically needed 3 or 4 proven players and we would be title challenger. Even if Mourinho was a problem we could have hired proven manager and stay up. Without trashing reputation and without risking losing money from sponsors because of poor results.
We could have just do what was logical. Sell deadwood and buy couple of players.
What Ole did in reality? He sold players who were good enough for this squad( Lukaku, Alexis, Fellaini, Herrera), kept deadwood( Jones, Mata, Lingard) and spent 200 mil on new players to make this squad even worse.
Angry mob will be here any moment telling you that you 'conveniently overlooked' that Ancelotti is a better manager than Ole and that you should be ashamed to even mention those two in the same sentence.
I think his three CL wins say otherwise, they really shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence to be honest. Ole will do well to have a career that Moyes has had let alone comparing him to Ancelotti.
gerrard is a legend for slipping, the spitter was an over rated tool, but Rush gave them 15 yrs of service, scored a goal more less every 1 and a bit games (660 games, 346 goals) won 5 league tiles, 3 fa cups and 2 euro/cl cups so yet thats a legend.
Ole, he is lacking two basic and logical thing.
1.
Solve your team biggest problem. Fix where you have to fix first. Like your car. You drive from distance A to B. Your car get problems and it stop. You found out the main reason why the car. And still there are few others problems. Like poor old wheels, but it is still running. So you got fixed the main problem and still driving with the poor wheels to your destination B. Then you bought new wheels at des.B
It is in all situations.If you want a car or something collective to keep perform, to your highest expectations. If it is a big problem and lesser small and lesser important problems. You have to fix your biggest problem first.
A Football team is like car. Consist of many units. Like wheels, engine, brake, fuel/battery and others units.
In United case. United had good enough CB to get into top 4 in Smalling, Jones, Bailly, Lindelof, Tuanzebe and Rojo.
Compare to United CM and RW options.
CM options : Pogba. Big big talent, but a mood player. Compare to Liverpool more consistent mood player in Milner and Henderson. McTom, Matic, Fred and Perreira.
RW: Mata, Greenwood, Chong and James
So for this 3 positions. The analyzing of the qualities of this 3 pos. CB, CM and RW. RW is clearly the weakest position. Second the CM and 3 and last the CB pos. Then Ole prior to fix the lesser important problem first. With a world record for a CB. No new RW and CM. This is the main and true fact, why the car United is inconsistent and is not able to fight and drive in to the top 4 pos. And it is down to the decisions of the manager. The driver of the car/United.
United and Ole is driving on a unsteady car, on the road and path of top 4. Not to mention the road of the champion.
2.second basic thing. This is about to have a view of a bigger picture. Example. Ole didn’t found Lukaku good enough or Lukaku didn’t suit his football style and philosophy. To truly rate a football player good enough. You have to look at a bigger picture. Then one of the biggest factor behind a player and team success. Is the qualities of his teammates. The qualities of the service and support. Then i will still use the car example. Even your car have a really strong and good engine HK. Your car still need top quality wheels and others factors. Together, supporting each others and merging into a unit calling car and a team.
Ole and Woodward is saying lately United are on a rebuilding process. It mean United have many weak links need ti improve and strength. And if the quality of the positions in the problem above are not good. In this case average. In the last half of last season. It will and naturally affects Lukaku and others attacking performance. Same with Smalling and other CB. Without Herrera and McTom United were and are struggling. Then you thought your CB or CF are not good enough. Then you bought a world record CB. And no replacement for Lukaku. Because most of the time was spending on a CB and a nr.10.
And you can see how Lukaku is performing with a set of better and more consistent teammates in Inter, same for Smalling and if Sanchez was playing more for Inter too.
And about the norwegian striker Haaland and his dad as guidance. If they see and have a right view of a bigger and a right correct of rating football players. No way on earth would Haaland choose United over Dortmund. Lookt at the quality of football players at Dortmund. The service there. Witsel, Sancho, Reus, Brandt and Hazard. And if you play as main striker there. You will know how many chances they will create for you. The boy chose it right. Mind over sentimental and norwegian connection and a previous manager.
Yeah Lukaku was unprofessional in the end and force a way out. But Lukaku knew he was behind Rashford in the pecking order as the main striker. And from his stand point of view. If you are not wanted, will sit on the bench most of the time. Then you want to leave for more play time. You can’t only blame on Lukaku to be unprofessional and to force his way out. He knew he didn’t wanted by Ole.
But if Ole bought a RW or a nr.8 like Bruno instead of Maguire. Spend time on a Nr.8 and RW instead of a CB, in the summer. If United got Bruno in last summer and keep Smalling. I am sure with Chelsea, Arsenal,Wolves and Spurs inconsistent run and season so far. United would be in top 4 by now. By having Bruno from start and injury until now, instead of Maguire. And with a not top class CB options in Smalling, Lindelof and Jones. Not top class CBs , but still good enough for top 4 spot. On same level of Leicester CB options. The difference between United and Leicester is the fullbacks, midfield and front four.
So sum up and conclusion. If Ole want to do better and do more right decisions. Its not only for Ole. Others leaders on others area of society. If you don’t see and have those two basic thing and view. Then you will struggle and meet the wall. Soon or later. Because you think it is only down to you or only down to one person. Blame on one person. And with a leader with a view like this. How can you expect your company to succeed.
And the person to evaluate Ole decisions. Woodward, who has lesser football knowledge than Ole or minimal. How can Woodward evaluate Ole.
And the one who will evaluate Woodward. If it is the owner. The owner with minimal football knowledge too. How correctly can they evaluate Woodward?
When the roots of main problem is wrong and don’t know much about football. Even you fix the top of the problem, but not the root. The top/problem will appear and grow up again. Ask yourself what will happen, when you cut the top of the grass. Will it stop growing and keep growing. And reason why it keep growing.
Football and like others things, business or whatever. Are part of life. And special where many parts, factors and units take part and merging into a bigger unit. If one or two factors, units and reasons are in big trouble. It will naturally affect the full packet/the collective. And a collective is more WE than I. Alone we are all are nothing.
So if Ole got back and give time for another summer spending. If he is repeating the same decisions. If i am the owner. I would give peoples another chance. If he keeps repeating same decision. Then he is definitely not the one to lead one of the biggest club in football. Beside good part of luck, experience, will and skill. Right perspective and is been able to look at a bigger picture. A big factor to succeed. Look at the bigger picture and solve your biggest and have to fix problem first.
Same if your house is burning. You do the most important thing first. Save life and forget property. Two clearly basic thing in life.
1.
Solve your team biggest problem. Fix where you have to fix first. Like your car. You drive from distance A to B. Your car get problems and it stop. You found out the main reason why the car. And still there are few others problems. Like poor old wheels, but it is still running. So you got fixed the main problem and still driving with the poor wheels to your destination B. Then you bought new wheels at des.B
It is in all situations.If you want a car or something collective to keep perform, to your highest expectations. If it is a big problem and lesser small and lesser important problems. You have to fix your biggest problem first.
A Football team is like car. Consist of many units. Like wheels, engine, brake, fuel/battery and others units.
In United case. United had good enough CB to get into top 4 in Smalling, Jones, Bailly, Lindelof, Tuanzebe and Rojo.
Compare to United CM and RW options.
CM options : Pogba. Big big talent, but a mood player. Compare to Liverpool more consistent mood player in Milner and Henderson. McTom, Matic, Fred and Perreira.
RW: Mata, Greenwood, Chong and James
So for this 3 positions. The analyzing of the qualities of this 3 pos. CB, CM and RW. RW is clearly the weakest position. Second the CM and 3 and last the CB pos. Then Ole prior to fix the lesser important problem first. With a world record for a CB. No new RW and CM. This is the main and true fact, why the car United is inconsistent and is not able to fight and drive in to the top 4 pos. And it is down to the decisions of the manager. The driver of the car/United.
United and Ole is driving on a unsteady car, on the road and path of top 4. Not to mention the road of the champion.
2.second basic thing. This is about to have a view of a bigger picture. Example. Ole didn’t found Lukaku good enough or Lukaku didn’t suit his football style and philosophy. To truly rate a football player good enough. You have to look at a bigger picture. Then one of the biggest factor behind a player and team success. Is the qualities of his teammates. The qualities of the service and support. Then i will still use the car example. Even your car have a really strong and good engine HK. Your car still need top quality wheels and others factors. Together, supporting each others and merging into a unit calling car and a team.
Ole and Woodward is saying lately United are on a rebuilding process. It mean United have many weak links need ti improve and strength. And if the quality of the positions in the problem above are not good. In this case average. In the last half of last season. It will and naturally affects Lukaku and others attacking performance. Same with Smalling and other CB. Without Herrera and McTom United were and are struggling. Then you thought your CB or CF are not good enough. Then you bought a world record CB. And no replacement for Lukaku. Because most of the time was spending on a CB and a nr.10.
And you can see how Lukaku is performing with a set of better and more consistent teammates in Inter, same for Smalling and if Sanchez was playing more for Inter too.
And about the norwegian striker Haaland and his dad as guidance. If they see and have a right view of a bigger and a right correct of rating football players. No way on earth would Haaland choose United over Dortmund. Lookt at the quality of football players at Dortmund. The service there. Witsel, Sancho, Reus, Brandt and Hazard. And if you play as main striker there. You will know how many chances they will create for you. The boy chose it right. Mind over sentimental and norwegian connection and a previous manager.
Yeah Lukaku was unprofessional in the end and force a way out. But Lukaku knew he was behind Rashford in the pecking order as the main striker. And from his stand point of view. If you are not wanted, will sit on the bench most of the time. Then you want to leave for more play time. You can’t only blame on Lukaku to be unprofessional and to force his way out. He knew he didn’t wanted by Ole.
But if Ole bought a RW or a nr.8 like Bruno instead of Maguire. Spend time on a Nr.8 and RW instead of a CB, in the summer. If United got Bruno in last summer and keep Smalling. I am sure with Chelsea, Arsenal,Wolves and Spurs inconsistent run and season so far. United would be in top 4 by now. By having Bruno from start and injury until now, instead of Maguire. And with a not top class CB options in Smalling, Lindelof and Jones. Not top class CBs , but still good enough for top 4 spot. On same level of Leicester CB options. The difference between United and Leicester is the fullbacks, midfield and front four.
So sum up and conclusion. If Ole want to do better and do more right decisions. Its not only for Ole. Others leaders on others area of society. If you don’t see and have those two basic thing and view. Then you will struggle and meet the wall. Soon or later. Because you think it is only down to you or only down to one person. Blame on one person. And with a leader with a view like this. How can you expect your company to succeed.
And the person to evaluate Ole decisions. Woodward, who has lesser football knowledge than Ole or minimal. How can Woodward evaluate Ole.
And the one who will evaluate Woodward. If it is the owner. The owner with minimal football knowledge too. How correctly can they evaluate Woodward?
When the roots of main problem is wrong and don’t know much about football. Even you fix the top of the problem, but not the root. The top/problem will appear and grow up again. Ask yourself what will happen, when you cut the top of the grass. Will it stop growing and keep growing. And reason why it keep growing.
Football and like others things, business or whatever. Are part of life. And special where many parts, factors and units take part and merging into a bigger unit. If one or two factors, units and reasons are in big trouble. It will naturally affect the full packet/the collective. And a collective is more WE than I. Alone we are all are nothing.
So if Ole got back and give time for another summer spending. If he is repeating the same decisions. If i am the owner. I would give peoples another chance. If he keeps repeating same decision. Then he is definitely not the one to lead one of the biggest club in football. Beside good part of luck, experience, will and skill. Right perspective and is been able to look at a bigger picture. A big factor to succeed. Look at the bigger picture and solve your biggest and have to fix problem first.
Same if your house is burning. You do the most important thing first. Save life and forget property. Two clearly basic thing in life.
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