Yes the fans are very easy to sell the hope of a better tomorrow and announcing Poch will have everyone on side and forgotten about Ole
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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I gather most people are long past thinking about Ole's start and are exclusively focused on the club's future, but I was interested to see how his run to date compares over the last 50 years or so. Lots of talk about it being the worst start to a season since Sir Alex started off, but I wondered how he stacks up if you include the initial managerial bounce...for anyone interested, you can play around with the data here. Here's a snapshot:
Even with the normal managerial bounce, I still find that start kind of incredible...yes the teams weren't very strong but they're precisely the kind of teams we've struggled against since. How could they get such a head of steam going then, with such a mediocre bunch of players?
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So Woodward clearly thinks he'll still be calling the shots come the summer.. depressing in the extreme if indeed he is.
Come on, don't be sucked in, the guy will say everything he thinks the fans want to hear at this time of year.
Thats not what the fans want to hear though... they want us to go after world class names and challenge for the title immediately. I think what he's indicating is a change of strategy from the last few years.
But aren't things the other way around? Due to Ole's status, people are extremely reluctant to criticize him and all the anger gets redirected towards Woodward and the Glazers?
I don't remember Woodward and co getting as much shit as they do now during our previous managers when things went bad. And it's not only the fans, but even our former players(which are all Ole's friends) are also deflecting the blame towards them, which didn't happen before now.
They have nothing to gain by keeping him in charge. So, I am thinking that the most reasonable explanation is that we have someone lined up that only wishes to take charge from the summer and Woodward decided that he might as well stick with Ole until then to save some money.
I gather most people are long past thinking about Ole's start and are exclusively focused on the club's future, but I was interested to see how his run to date compares over the last 50 years or so. Lots of talk about it being the worst start to a season since Sir Alex started off, but I wondered how he stacks up if you include the initial managerial bounce...for anyone interested, you can play around with the data here. Here's a snapshot:
Even with the normal managerial bounce, I still find that start kind of incredible...yes the teams weren't very strong but they're precisely the kind of teams we've struggled against since. How could they get such a head of steam going then, with such a mediocre bunch of players?
The “Jose’s gone, happy days” feeling clearly played a huge part in the initial bounce.
He thinks fans are daft, but not that daft, you don't go from where we are now to that, so he is lowering expectations, whilst still trying to get fans excited.
A change of strategy? How is he still there to oversee this even if it is true, which it isn't. ( for the good of the club anyway).
Yeah absolutely. I suspect we've all been there in some form or another too! You're in this endless toxic spiral driven by by an ego maniac who only knows how to act destructively in that context, and you're just desperate for a change. Someone comes in who completely removes that atmosphere, listens to what your needs are and above all else just seems like a nice human being, and everything comes easy after that. For a while anyway!
Still, it comes with the implication that this group of players can really perform to a high level when the pressure is off, which seemed totally implausible at the time and still implausible now!
I gather most people are long past thinking about Ole's start and are exclusively focused on the club's future, but I was interested to see how his run to date compares over the last 50 years or so. Lots of talk about it being the worst start to a season since Sir Alex started off, but I wondered how he stacks up if you include the initial managerial bounce...for anyone interested, you can play around with the data here. Here's a snapshot:
Even with the normal managerial bounce, I still find that start kind of incredible...yes the teams weren't very strong but they're precisely the kind of teams we've struggled against since. How could they get such a head of steam going then, with such a mediocre bunch of players?
They were still playing Mourinho's coaching... they hadn't been coached by Ole yet.
The more Ole has coached, the worse they've become.
Dare I say that if we'd had Mourinho as manager, with Ole as his assistant, handling the players and training, we'd probably have found a really nice balance.
Like i said, if he backs it up. I fully expect he'll mess it up. We'll spend less than most here expect as usual. The proceeds from Pogba will cover most of it.
To be honest it only serves to cement my feeling that the longer Ole spends “coaching” the players the worse they become as a collective.
It’s really very odd how certain individuals have shown improvement but as a team we’ve regressed enormously and almost every match they look like 11 guys who were introduced to one another half an hour before kick off.
And this is a year on with his signings, coaching, pre season etc
I think this is a very good point. I was definitely caught up in it - too happy that Jose had been sacked to look at Ole's appointment and think WTF, this makes no sense.
As a side note, I'd add that we never looked like a well drilled side consistently under Jose either. So how much we've actually regressed in that regard is debatable, in my opinion.
Not that it works as an excuse for Ole. I fully agree that we look like a team of strangers far too often. You could perhaps make a case for both of them (Jose and Ole) being managers/coaches/whatever who don't put a lot of emphasis on attacking drills (as in, working systematically on "patterns", etc.).
Ole, by some accounts, isn't all that hands-on when it comes to coaching on the details plane - he's more like (ahem) someone else in that regard.
You don't think Pochettino would be better because of what?
And why would Werner or Sancho even consider Manchester United, a team that is slowly cementing its place outside both England's and European elite? They are playing in sides that guarantee them top level football, their next step can only be to the level of clubs that guarantee them serious challenge for Champions league trophy. Yet again, Manchester United will not guarantee that, because well, Manchester United is far from even qualifying to Champions league.
We won trophies, finished PL runners up...
I'd say it's pretty clear that we've regressed a fairly large amount from Mourinho's peak at Utd.
Ole also deserves no pass over the state of the squad when it was his naivety as a shortcoming that made it this way. His naivety handling injuries also compounded it. Spending 200m and ending up worse off takes special incompetence.
Also a puzzle how he supposedly improved our youngsters, supposedly had good signings and still looks this bad on the pitch. Shouldn't the blueprint of something special start showing flashes by now if the improvements aren't a myth?
Also a puzzle how he supposedly improved our youngsters, supposedly had good signings and still looks this bad on the pitch. Shouldn't the blueprint of something special start showing flashes by now if the improvements aren't a myth?
Where would Ole have Chelsea, City, Liverpool , Leicester if he was in charge?
Chelsea 6th
Leicester 5th
Liverpool probably 3rd
City probably 4th
His famous 4-2-3-1 formation with no tactical changes would easily be found out.
Chelsea 6th
Leicester 5th
Liverpool probably 3rd
City probably 4th
His famous 4-2-3-1 formation with no tactical changes would easily be found out.
I could be wrong but I think we're not getting Pochettino or any relevant manager any time soon. The club spent the money like a headless chicken in the last years, especially with the salary mass reaching astronomic numbers (2nd biggest wages in football, just behind Barcelona), and the snowball would get bigger and bigger if the club had kept negotiating deals from that basis.
Herrera leaving after not matching his demands probably represents that change of route, like taking Alexis and his wages out of that dressing room at any cost, selling players with no replacement or loaning Smalling instead of Jones (nobody wants him, so it was Mike), allowing Young to leave now with the squad being pretty thin already, and so on.
The club explain this as some 'cultural' thing and whilst I can see that dressing room being a circus, the big reset taking place now is mainly financial and it's conditioning everything else. Now you just can't sell the current plan to any half-respected manager in Europe and expect him to jump at it, unless he's desperate for a job and he's got all the doors closed out there.
Pochettino has spent many years now developing young players, working under limitations and aiming every year for the minimum goals, so it's natural for him to look for something more. There's no chance he's coming without seeing at least what happens first with managers at clubs like PSG (where he played in the past and is well known and respected), Atletico with Simeone being highly questioned, or even City after being linked with them recently, if Pep decided to leave. Zidane is unpredictable so you never know.
I don't fully close the door to anything in football, but if Ole leaves this summer I expect us to sign Southgate, Laurent Blanc or someone with nothing to lose, happy to adjust to the current plan and without credit in the game to ask for big powers.
Those expecting that Ole will take our problems with him if he leaves tomorrow are going to be disappointed, and this is the result of the club being poorly managed for many years, and still refusing (unforgivable) to improve the structures with a respected football figure on the top of it. This is why some of us while not convinced with the team and the staff (and everything in general), feel no urgency about the Ole thing and more about the club being professionalized for once, which is far more important for our long term success than burning a new flashy toy in a rotten environement.
...And about Ole, it doesn't look good for him and the man doesn't help himself at times, really. But I'm curious to see what happens with a pair of creative sparks on the field like Bruno and Pogba against the packed defences in the coming months.
Since he was appointed in December we've beaten Chelsea three times now, Arsenal, PSG, Leicester home and away, Spurs under Pochettino and Jose, City twice at their ground and almost the unbeaten Liverpool by 5 minutes or so.
We can say we've been lucky at times, but that's too much in the space of a year to be explained by luck. As I see it the team is normally well organized on the field, there's balance and the energy and discipline have been fine overall. Our quick transitions are good with space, we try to play it clean from the back and under pressure, and we rarely renounce to score more goals by getting everyone behind the ball. All this together has given us a decent platform to compete in these big games, otherwise it would be impossible to get such results even with lady luck by our side.
The big problem we have is breaking the deep wall and having to create the space where there isn't any, and that's what ultimately will cost him the job if things don't improve quickly. It's a combination between lack of quality and pretty standard and uninspiring movement off the ball. But I think the lack of vision and pure talent to play the killer ball is costing us more than anything else.
We saw a month ago against Watford how Pogba changed the game in the second half. He comes in and suddenly there's one touch combinations and the runners are being spotted. Pogba was in fact our best player in just 30 minutes or so, after months away from the field and not fully recovered yet, as we saw later. A player in these conditions and thinking about a move being miles above the rest, shows how absolutely DESERT this team is in terms of class and creativity.
With Pogba and Fernandes there's no excuses left and we have to see clear improvements both in terms of performances, chance creation and results. Probably depending on that, our runs in the cups and the managers available the club will decide what to do. I highly doubt Ole's future is depending on a single aspect or a concrete league position but probably a mix of things, including the general atmosphere and maybe the support from the players, so everything is still open I think.
Herrera leaving after not matching his demands probably represents that change of route, like taking Alexis and his wages out of that dressing room at any cost, selling players with no replacement or loaning Smalling instead of Jones (nobody wants him, so it was Mike), allowing Young to leave now with the squad being pretty thin already, and so on.
The club explain this as some 'cultural' thing and whilst I can see that dressing room being a circus, the big reset taking place now is mainly financial and it's conditioning everything else. Now you just can't sell the current plan to any half-respected manager in Europe and expect him to jump at it, unless he's desperate for a job and he's got all the doors closed out there.
Pochettino has spent many years now developing young players, working under limitations and aiming every year for the minimum goals, so it's natural for him to look for something more. There's no chance he's coming without seeing at least what happens first with managers at clubs like PSG (where he played in the past and is well known and respected), Atletico with Simeone being highly questioned, or even City after being linked with them recently, if Pep decided to leave. Zidane is unpredictable so you never know.
I don't fully close the door to anything in football, but if Ole leaves this summer I expect us to sign Southgate, Laurent Blanc or someone with nothing to lose, happy to adjust to the current plan and without credit in the game to ask for big powers.
Those expecting that Ole will take our problems with him if he leaves tomorrow are going to be disappointed, and this is the result of the club being poorly managed for many years, and still refusing (unforgivable) to improve the structures with a respected football figure on the top of it. This is why some of us while not convinced with the team and the staff (and everything in general), feel no urgency about the Ole thing and more about the club being professionalized for once, which is far more important for our long term success than burning a new flashy toy in a rotten environement.
...And about Ole, it doesn't look good for him and the man doesn't help himself at times, really. But I'm curious to see what happens with a pair of creative sparks on the field like Bruno and Pogba against the packed defences in the coming months.
Since he was appointed in December we've beaten Chelsea three times now, Arsenal, PSG, Leicester home and away, Spurs under Pochettino and Jose, City twice at their ground and almost the unbeaten Liverpool by 5 minutes or so.
We can say we've been lucky at times, but that's too much in the space of a year to be explained by luck. As I see it the team is normally well organized on the field, there's balance and the energy and discipline have been fine overall. Our quick transitions are good with space, we try to play it clean from the back and under pressure, and we rarely renounce to score more goals by getting everyone behind the ball. All this together has given us a decent platform to compete in these big games, otherwise it would be impossible to get such results even with lady luck by our side.
The big problem we have is breaking the deep wall and having to create the space where there isn't any, and that's what ultimately will cost him the job if things don't improve quickly. It's a combination between lack of quality and pretty standard and uninspiring movement off the ball. But I think the lack of vision and pure talent to play the killer ball is costing us more than anything else.
We saw a month ago against Watford how Pogba changed the game in the second half. He comes in and suddenly there's one touch combinations and the runners are being spotted. Pogba was in fact our best player in just 30 minutes or so, after months away from the field and not fully recovered yet, as we saw later. A player in these conditions and thinking about a move being miles above the rest, shows how absolutely DESERT this team is in terms of class and creativity.
With Pogba and Fernandes there's no excuses left and we have to see clear improvements both in terms of performances, chance creation and results. Probably depending on that, our runs in the cups and the managers available the club will decide what to do. I highly doubt Ole's future is depending on a single aspect or a concrete league position but probably a mix of things, including the general atmosphere and maybe the support from the players, so everything is still open I think.
He'd have them all outside top 4 and in need of a 3-4 year rebuild
He'd have Liverpool lower than 3rd... they're a classic case of players coached to their absolute max and with a system that is functional and coherent.
Put that same squad in Ole's hands and people would be saying that mid-table - 4th was all those players could achieve.
Tldr?
Yep, he's just cluless tactics wise
My only negative surrounding Poch is he lost the dressing room of a team he built himself. You can argue that was due to not adding to the team, but it's really hard to get your head around.
I gather most people are long past thinking about Ole's start and are exclusively focused on the club's future, but I was interested to see how his run to date compares over the last 50 years or so. Lots of talk about it being the worst start to a season since Sir Alex started off, but I wondered how he stacks up if you include the initial managerial bounce...for anyone interested, you can play around with the data here. Here's a snapshot:
Even with the normal managerial bounce, I still find that start kind of incredible...yes the teams weren't very strong but they're precisely the kind of teams we've struggled against since. How could they get such a head of steam going then, with such a mediocre bunch of players?
The very simple answer here is: No injury problems. The catastrophic problems injuries to several of your key player causes to a team is so wildly underrated here.
Yep
He wouldn’t have the squad doing cross country and bleep test in the summer.
Only half true. He didn't lose the dressing room per say.
If you listen to Dany Rose's interview he talks about the fact that Poch lost it after the CL final. He felt betrayed by the players and thought that they haven't tried enough. This is why he went full authoritarian mode this season(sound familiar) and the players didn't respond well to his personality change.
Right now he might be a Jose Mk.II. A jaded and bitter manager who felt betrayed by his previous team(in Jose's case it was Real and Chelsea) and judging by the fact that he demanded to be backed to the hilt in the transfer market kind of confirms that.
I don't know. Poch is a good manager, but unless he sorts out his trust issues, we might have another Jose situation on our hands. So appointing him right now would be a really really big gamble.
A lot of posters seem either too stupid or agenda driven to include context in their assessments.
Hopefully the club sticks to what they are doing since Ole joined and he gets to finish the rebuild. I can definitely see progress. For the first time in years the players coming in actually make sense and solve problems. We just don't have anything near the squad depth yet to produce consistent results.
Another 3 good players in the summer along with further integration of the youth players should get us a lot closer to where we need to be as a squad. After 7 years of consistently signing problems I'm surprised that so many people feel so negatively about what's happening. AWB, Maguire, Fernandes and James are all steps in the right direction. Once Fred, Scott and Bruno build a partnership we will likely look a much better side.
People seem to expect Ole to do what Klopp did but without time or resources. It took Klopp 4 years and 18 first team signings to get Liverpool to a good level. Ole has had little over a year and 4 signings. It's not FM. It takes time to build a team.
I wish people would spout this shite in the very first paragraph so I can just stop reading.
I don't think anyone expects Ole to anything near Klopp. Honestly hoping he does what David Moyes did and fecks off after this season.
Absolute delusion to the highest degree. You'd gladly see us in the Championship so long as Ole was still the manager and you get to spout such nonsense as rebuild and culture and how much of a top red you are cause you still support a club legend.
It took Klopp that time to get Liverpool to top, top class level.
It took Klopp five minutes to get them to a good level.
There's nothing in our football to suggest the addition of better players will make for a really good team. It will improve the team somewhat, because better players tend to do that, but nothing more, as the coaching is poor. So we'll be, as we are now, less than the sum of our parts.
Every team has injury problems, a manager has to adapt and make sure he has cover
You literally just described how he lost the dressing room
People are still excusing him by using the injuries excuse when he's the main reason those injuries got aggravated by rushing players back and playing them while injured or having knocks? Unbelievable stuff.
At this point I'm convinced the Ole supporters care more about Ole than they do about the team.
Liverpool 3rd? No chance. He'd have them a couple places lower no doubt.
Chelsea 8th
Leicester 14th
Liverpool 3th
City 3th
Sheffield Relegated
Wolves 12 th
Spurs 7th
Arsenal 10th
Palace 10th
Everton 14 th
Newcastle 17 th
The rest relegated.
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