This time does feel different in that a rebuild doesn’t seem to be needed. That’s why the pressure has finally landed on Ole. Yes, the midfield could be improved upon but the squad overall is very talented and no team is perfect. You should be to able to do more with a better system. You compensate for your weaknesses whereas Ole seems to be exacerbating them.
Ole: “maybe something has to give”
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This time does feel different in that a rebuild doesn’t seem to be needed. That’s why the pressure has finally landed on Ole. Yes, the midfield could be improved upon but the squad overall is very talented and no team is perfect. You should be to able to do more with a better system. You compensate for your weaknesses whereas Ole seems to be exacerbating them.
1 point in 3 games against Everton, Villa and Leicester, two of which were at home. It's extraordinarily poor to be honest but very recoverable. The major problem isn't the results, it's the performances even when we've won. We really look clueless every game and the better players we have, the more obvious it is.
He should be in the side. Isn't there another international break in November? So going to be messed about again.
Ones moaning about so many threads, sure it was going back they wanted to prevent superthreads, that went off course and ended up that long nobody could plough their way through them.
That would entail us playing as a team, we don't have that right now. What we have is a bunch of players playing for themselves and fans wondering why the football is so shit despite improving on the squad on paper.
I said somewhere else on this site, before the international break, I thought Ole would go back to basics and play more defensively.
Was surprised to see him persist with, what amounts to, a 4-2-4 against Leicester. You can even say 4-1-4-1, cos Matic and Pogba were not a double defensive screen.
At its heart, this Man Utd squad is still a counter attacking squad. It doesn't have expansive fullbacks, it doesn't have great ball playing centre backs, it doesn't have a Xabi Alonso setting the tone at the base of midfield or a Casemiro breaking things up to get us back on the front foot.
What it does have is searing pace and game changers in forward areas. Its at its most dangerous when it can go direct into the runners up top, bypassing midfield to set people off in behind. That's what we are. We're Mourinho lite. Ole needs to start playing like it soon or he'll lose his job by the November internationals. No, it won't be pretty. But if we play to our strengths, instead of expecting the likes of Maguire to defend a high line and Wan Bissaka to be Dani Alves it'll mean we stop leaking goals. With our forwards that should be enough to get our season back on track.
Was surprised to see him persist with, what amounts to, a 4-2-4 against Leicester. You can even say 4-1-4-1, cos Matic and Pogba were not a double defensive screen.
At its heart, this Man Utd squad is still a counter attacking squad. It doesn't have expansive fullbacks, it doesn't have great ball playing centre backs, it doesn't have a Xabi Alonso setting the tone at the base of midfield or a Casemiro breaking things up to get us back on the front foot.
What it does have is searing pace and game changers in forward areas. Its at its most dangerous when it can go direct into the runners up top, bypassing midfield to set people off in behind. That's what we are. We're Mourinho lite. Ole needs to start playing like it soon or he'll lose his job by the November internationals. No, it won't be pretty. But if we play to our strengths, instead of expecting the likes of Maguire to defend a high line and Wan Bissaka to be Dani Alves it'll mean we stop leaking goals. With our forwards that should be enough to get our season back on track.
We haven't played as a team in a very long time. When was the last time we actually saw a well worked goal? It seems at the moment we are so reliant on moments of magic, nothing else.
Ole has not got the ability to get the balance of the team right, when he tried to change the balance, he tries fitting players in positions they shouldn't play.
There's a bit of variation through many teams. Some rely on wingbacks to supplement their attack, but we signed AWB and practically killed that option. City have hard working but technically great midfielders that contribute to attack; they also have Zinchenko who tucks into midfield almost at times and pushes a midfielder forward. I think the better teams are more fluid than they appear on paper on don't keep such a regimented formation/shape than we do.
I agree to an extent as I myself have said that I would pull Bruno deeper to support our midfield, but he does work hard and tracks back. I just think if we change personnel too much in the search for this solidity, we'll sacrifice a lot in attack. We already struggle to break certain teams down and throwing more defence minded players in won't help that.
It's a tough one because that isn't enough to get us anywhere near our goals of challenging but if he wants to keep his job It's probably what he'll have to do.
It's basically admitting to the world that he can't take us further.
It doesn't matter what level of football you play at, if you give the opposition time and space and you don't have the right defensive foundations, you won't consistently pick-up results no matter how good your forwards might be.
It's a trap that suckers fall into over and over again, throw your best attackers onto the pitch and just hope everything works out.
It's a trap that suckers fall into over and over again, throw your best attackers onto the pitch and just hope everything works out.
I can see what you mean but there’s a bit of fit every top attacker in the same 11 when most other managers think of the team first. If we had Liverpool’s from 4 we would be trying every formation to get Jota and Firminho in the same 11.
Absolutely. If you're Woodward, Murtough, the Glazers etc, and you see Ole drop all these exciting/expensive/well paid players to try and shit-house some results, what are you thinking? I'd be sat there thinking "this isn't washing with me". He's been backed so much in the market, has spent loads of money, and now he wants to say "actually I can't make it work with these guys, let's batten down the hatches and hope for the best".
The fact that Ole basically saved Pogba after his previous antics with Jose, tries to offer him a massive deal, fits him in wherever he can, and now is going to drop him and is being bad mouthed by Pogba, just says it all. He doesn't know what he's doing. He just wants to collect attacking players so he has many options to bail him out during games and off the bench.
Do t think we could improve our build up play, but we may be able to improve with these:
- Choose one from Bruno or Pogba, don’t not play them together
- Either Cavani or Lingard has to start, we need some presser up front
- Choose one from Ronaldo or Greenwood, or at most 2 from Ronaldo, Rashford and Greenwood
- Bench Sancho
- Try VDB in midfield instead of Fred, we need someone who could pass
- Choose one from Bruno or Pogba, don’t not play them together
- Either Cavani or Lingard has to start, we need some presser up front
- Choose one from Ronaldo or Greenwood, or at most 2 from Ronaldo, Rashford and Greenwood
- Bench Sancho
- Try VDB in midfield instead of Fred, we need someone who could pass
I think Ole has hit his limit but I would say I do think he can save his job if he can alter the formation and system successfully. Sure up the midfield and develop a system for attack that doesn't depend on individual brilliance. I don't think he has given himself many options in midfield but he seems to be saying here that what he's tried isn't working so I am expecting changes, those changes will make or break him. I am expecting a convincing win against Atalanta and then who knows, a draw against Liverpool should be possible. Bin the:
McFred
3
Ronaldo
formation and try something new.
McFred
3
Ronaldo
formation and try something new.
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It’s fairly obvious what he means but the baffling thing is after analysing it they decided the solution was to stick Pogba in CM alongside Matic who has the least legs of all our CMs away at Leicester…and then he banged on about us failing to win 50-50s. We’re the easiest side to play against when you are in possession. All those moaning about McFred are in fecking cuckoo land - it’s exactly what we sodding need even if that is ultimately not good enough either. Even the legs of Lingard wide - anything to get some fecking balance in there.
In hindsight, Mourinho was right about a lot of things at this club he just went the completely wrong way about it. Should have sold Martial and Pogba ages ago.
Are people being intentionally dumb in this thread saying they don’t know what he means? It’s clear that he is talking about the overall defensive/offensive balance in the team which likely means dropping one or two of our attacking players. Now if he can actually manage that and the ego fallout that will create is another question but it’s a pretty simplistic quote.
Spot on. They are so going to be part of the solution, whatever it is.
Trying to get a little bit closer to the precise nature of the problem;
Against Villarreal and Leicester, there was just a complete lack of coherence, structure and flow to our game, offensively and defensively. Not clear what we are even trying to do defensively. Previously and for a while back, we've basically played a mid-block, with just a bit of pressing from the forwards to primarily disrupt rather than regain so that they move upfield with the ball or play simple passes to their own midfield, and then run into the mid-block and hopefully lose the ball with space that we can exploit behind their back line. But now, who knows? We are lacking coherence and compactness, and there's often no pressure on the ball-carrier, so that the opposition is finding good opportunities for breaks, and the midfield duo is too stretched and isolated to interfere effectively. A lot of that just looks really badly organised and bad choices by players. It should be possible to improve this significantly even without any major revamping of style or system, you'd think.
I think it is interesting that in some respects at least, the game among the last 5 that stands out as quite a bit better than the others is Everton. We had largely the same defensive vulnerabilities (though much less pronounced than Villarreal or Leicester), and also did not create a lot of scoring chances - but our basic game with the ball at least looked a lot better. They were moving the ball quickly and efficiently, moved sensibly, were finding each other with relative ease and there was flow and rhytm to it.
Tempting though it is to say "and guess who weren't in the lineup for that game", that seems too simple. But there's something about the balance. Ronaldo, Sancho, Pogba, Bruno and to an extent Rashford and increasingly Greenwood all require that what the rest of the team does is adapted to them. Ronaldo needs everyone to focus on getting him the ball, and to pick up the defensive slack for him. Sancho requires other players to set up for clever little exchanges around the box, and for someone to overlap wide. Pogba needs to be buffered defensively and for players to move unpredictably to provide him with passing options. Bruno needs full freedom to roam (and hence others to cover his space when he does), and everyone else up front to time their initiatives to his movements with the ball. And Rashford and Greenwood wants to move to the spaces where they like getting the ball, and once they have it, they want to finish. It's all focal points, all needing it their own way.
Which is a scary thought, because if that's right, we don't just have a tactics/current performance problem, we have built the wrong squad.
Yeah, you raise some good points. The bolded part feels like the main issue. Too much is left open to the individual players to just go and express themselves, when their natural inclinations are not suited to be a coherent XI. KDB is a great example of someone who has tailored his role to the wider needs of his teams and still thrives, even if his individual productivity is toned down a bit.
In terms of Greenwood, I do think he is best from the right. Shaw does get forward a lot on the left and I would rather Rashford play there. Sancho, for me at least, needs a period (primarily on the right) where we look to have him play a more supportive, creative role. I would generally always play Rashford on the left, Greenwood on the right, and Sancho whichever side is needed. Regardless, we need these players coached to perform a specific function for the betterment of the team.
The forum has been quite frustrating in recent weeks. Everything is becoming too reductive with too many oversimplifying the issues at hand. Too much of it is being boiled down to team selection, as if it is a code to be cracked, with so little willingness to explore what tactically is going wrong and what changes can be made to get more out of the players. You can get the same eleven players to play very different games, even within the same rough formation.
I think a lot of our issues could be solved if AWB just didn't go forward. He's a detriment to any attack we get going on the right anyway, and we should be better setup to stop the counter coming the other way if he slotted in as a 3rd CB during attacks and in possession. If Ole insists on Bruno free roaming then tell him to shuffle across to wherever the ball is, i.e., if it's on Greenwood's flank, shuffle across to the right to support him in place of AWB.
That being said, after being in the Ole in camp since the beginning, I can no longer in good conscience advocate for him after the dross served up at Leicester; it was the straw that broke the Camel's back for me, and I can no longer argue a case for him to remain, whatsoever.
That being said, after being in the Ole in camp since the beginning, I can no longer in good conscience advocate for him after the dross served up at Leicester; it was the straw that broke the Camel's back for me, and I can no longer argue a case for him to remain, whatsoever.
What he'll do is always pick 2 of Matic/Fred/McTominay, and then have Ronaldo/Rashford/Greenwood or Sancho/Cavani in the front 3 and hope being hard to beat + pace on the counter does enough. Which works a lot of time... but won't be enough to get us past being a top 4 team.
Despite the Europa League final defeat last season, we were showing progress and I went into this season optimistic, especially with our signings. I thought we were serious. The one signing which has actually proven to be a mistake has been Ronaldo. He does not fit the team or our play style at all, but on the other hand we could not have let him go to City. Can you imagine what that would have done to us all? That being considered, if you are going to make the decision to sign Ronaldo, you have to play to his strengths. He is the best player to have ever walked the earth. You cannot sign him ONLY to prevent another club having him and to be able to keep selling CR7 merchandise. Fact is, we don't play to his strengths. He is pedestrian in this side. So Ole has to play to his strengths whilst we have him, otherwise it will be a criminal waste of his scoring abilities and there's a good chance he will (Ronaldo) walk himself at the end of the season. We need players who actually put crosses into the box. For example, Telles is probably the best crosser of the ball we have but he doesn't get a look in.
In my opinion, Ole won't find a solution to this problem and Ronaldo arrival will ultimately be his downfall. If he wasn't already out of his depth before, he sure is now with such a massive player to manage.
In my opinion, Ole won't find a solution to this problem and Ronaldo arrival will ultimately be his downfall. If he wasn't already out of his depth before, he sure is now with such a massive player to manage.
It's pretty obvious we need to keep a double pivot in midfield until we get new personnel in capable of playing another formation.
I want a new manager to come in that doesn't have any allegiances to any players or isn't afraid to sit someone in spite of their status or reputation. Just pick the system and select the best players to make that system work. If Ronaldo, Pogba, or AWB has to sit, so be it...a new manager won't feel the pressure of playing guys because they were his transfers or because of a relationship built up. Just be fair and respectful and create a cohesive team instead of a bunch of individuals doing their own thing.
I just hope he chooses to go or is sacked before we play Liverpool. They will be forever be saying LFC got him sacked if they beat us and he walks or is pushed. He might be struggling but he is a legend and deserves better than that.
This is true.
For what this side needs, McFred is the best we can offer. Although, in the cold light of day its not good enough.
Compare and contrast McFred with the great defensive pivots of recent years. Its hardly Kimmich and Goretzka.
The sad thing about United is that, to improve this team, would not necessarily take bringing in world class players. Just better players.
A lot of us have deluded ourselves into thinking expensive=right. We have spent a lot of money since Sir Alex retired. However, most of it has been spent badly.
Its really hard to understand how the club uses money. We went years without singing a right winger. Then decided in the space of a year to get Pellistri, Amad and Sancho, just as Greenwood was developing.
You can say the same thing about midfield. We signed Herrera, then signed Matic, then signed Fred. Where is the improvement? Money being spent left right and centre and I struggle to think of how that's led to a big jump in quality.
With other teams you see it. Liverpool sign Fabinho and the improvement over what they had before is obvious. We have spent hundreds of millions going sideways in so many positions.
Ole is getting a lot wrong at the moment and that's on him. However, United, as a club, just has so much wrong with it. So many bad decisions over so many years have put us where we are. We could be better but would it be enough? I've lost hope.
A massive part of why we struggle to transition with the ball from front to back effectively is that our two CM's sit parallel to each other and act like DM's, whereas, Bruno is somewhere way up the field almost as a 2nd striker, so, who is dropping to form the triangle with McTominay and Fred? Because it isn't Bruno. The gap between the midfield and Bruno is huge, which in part answers an issue about why McFred struggle to progress the ball and find a passing option; without players in closer proximity, or a relevant 'out' ball, average ball-players are going to look even worse. It's as much tactically a failure as it is the individual not having the requisite quality.
I'm not sure what people are hanging their hat on regarding keeping Ole as manager. It's surely just hope at this stage, hope that he can turn it around, hope that performances improve. We can't say that there is any evidence at present to show he can improve things.
So we should just "Hoof The Ball" then
I think the first need of the moment is drop Pogba into rotation. Don't care if he plays deeper or not for France, just don't want him to play deep for us.
Mcfred have been useless this season that’s why everyone is fed up with them and it’s blatantly obvious they aren’t good enough. They didn’t help the defence or the attack against Everton. Mctominay made us look worse at the weekend.
Ole is clearly going to back to his favoured passive, counter attacking football. We’ve spent three years going round in a big circle, some rebuild and reboot. He might delay the inevitable a bit longer but he’s done either way now, best thing for all involved is this ends as quickly as possible.
We haven’t the players to play him there so that’s unfortunately the correct call to make.
Worryingly McFred combo previously was our only relatively safe option, but they even look off it when they’ve played this season.
Scott was shite when he came on yesterday, backed off and off for their third goal, feckin passive as feck.
God, I’d sell the entire midfield for one decent, aggressive, capable DM. The feckin lot of em.
I get the frustration and genuine concern, but he has improved season on season, not vastly but he’s not yet gone backwards.
Obviously we have to see where this slump finishes, contrary to some posters claims, he doesn’t have a following that would watch the club sink so long as he’s ‘at the wheel.’
I’ll be hit with a handful of the usual responses, “he’s had three years” and “he’s clearly out of his depth etc” but in these moments he usually turns up and gets us playing although I concede at this point I have one eye on which managers are becoming available …
So we should just "Hoof The Ball" then
I really wish there was a way that I could change my username. I mean, there is, I suppose, but I'm not entirely sure the moderators would be that gracious! Thoughts and prayers for me, right? Ha!We're not even getting the basics right though; workrate is almost non existent, we don't press, we don't retain possession well enough, the intensity and tempo aren't there. That's without mentioning our tactics when in posession.
He would have to turn this around now to save the season or it is top 4 at best. I'm not sure there's merit in making a change now with this run approaching but if the title is gone and we go out of the CL, with progress on last season then impossible to achieve, he should go immediately and not be given the chance to salvage top 4.
Having seen our December fixtures, Ole is screwed
I don't see us being improved to be honest. The improvement season on season is more by virtue of getting some players in that help us out. Year 1 he was shite, then Bruno came and it saved him. Year 2 he started shite, then Cavani came fit and bailed him out of some big games. Year 3 he's shite and individual brilliance from anyone isn't bailing him out.
He was just crazy lucky to have such little competition for 1.5 years with Lamps as a rival and for half a season with Klopp having no defence. Now that it's normalized a bit he's been found out. If Leicester didn't have an injury crisis I genuinely believe the final game of his first season would be the sacking game. We were on the right side and finished 3rd, but could have easily slipped and finish 5th.
Ole said its a great time to be an attacker here, so there's one.
This would then see him underachieve on what I considered minimum requirements at the beginning of the season and I would agree it’s time to start looking for a replacement.
The thing is, if he does go, we have to make sure the next guy is right, fits the club but just as importantly is a manager that won’t look to rip up the team, we can’t afford another 3 year rebuild job and ‘cultural reboot’ which were genuine requirements when Ole took over.
I wouldn’t rush into Conte for example. Ole is a harmless pair of hands to rumble along whilst we are looking - if it gets to that point.
Agreed we would have got around £120 mill to spend on new players as well.