Long post coming, but there’s some constructive stuff in this thread.
4-2-3-1 isn’t unworkable. Bayern play that way (not sure about this season but previously) and they’ve had lots of success both domestically and in Europe.
I do wonder what if playing inverted forwards in Greenwood and Rashford/Sancho along with an attacking midfielder in Bruno is more of the problem. If you look at teams with inverted forwards like Pep’s Barca team or PSG or City they tend to play a 3-man midfield. This allows space for the forwards to come inside to the attacking midfield position and leaves room for overlapping full backs while having the 3-man midfield to cover for the attacking full backs.
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Considering the weakness in AWB and Shaw in terms of delivery we shouldn’t want them crossing too often. Instead tell them to sit back and play cautiously supporting the 2-man midfield. Then swap Greenwood and Sancho. Get them playing high and wide stretching play. This will create room for Bruno in the no10 position and also get Sancho and Greenwood to the byline to square the ball for Ronaldo in the box.
An interesting post, but I don’t quite agree with all of it. Going forward, we aren’t that bad, our xG compares well. We are joint second scorers in the league. It could be better, but a better foundation and team confidence would do some of that.
I agree that having Bruno alongside two inside forwards isn’t particularly conducive. The centre of the park is very crowded and we have little wide. Greenwood would be a waste of time to be instructed to play wide and stretch the play. That’s not his game at all. He’s someone you always want playing fairly directly towards goal. We’re short of wingers, but I’d rather see any of Sancho, Rashford, Lingard or Dalot employed to generate width.
The priority has to be to sort out the defensive side of things though, so we do not need to score at least two goals every match. We’ve scored as many as City and Chelsea but have conceded ten to their three each. Right now we basically only defend with the back four, and the double pivot. Bruno is then channelling his inner teenage Rooney, whilst the three forwards amble about. That’s not a reliable system.
The situation isn’t irrecoverable for Ole, but either he or the next manager need to go back to basics a bit and focus on producing a solid foundation. That doesn’t mean picking a second string XI or opting for supposedly less flashy players, but actually setting up the team with the players having a shared mentality of prioritising the defensive shape, engaging in high workrate out of possession and taking pride in keeping a clean sheet. Conceding a goal needs to be as offensive to Bruno, Sancho and Greenwood, as it does to the centre backs and midfielders.
I think they could but someone has to tell Bruno he has to give up the goals and get back to being a midfielder which is a tough call but if not it’s either one or the other.
You can’t play two wide attackers that don’t track back, Ronaldo and a false 9 it’s over kill and doesn’t work.
I agree with this, but it doesn’t have to be a massive adjustment for Bruno. Modern elite football teams will be found out if they try to play a poacher focussed solely on goalscoring, a #10 given free reign, and two inside forwards who don’t track back. It’s not necessarily about the selection of individual players, but as much about their ability to perform specific roles and follow instruction.
It’s not about the formation either. We saw the same thing happen with the 4-2-3-1 yesterday at Leicester and with the 4-3-3 against Villarreal. The front four are either not doing anything at all (Ronaldo, Sancho and Greenwood) or nothing constructive (Bruno) to help the rest of the team out of possession. All four of our full backs and three different midfielders in the double pivot have been exposed across these matches – and that’s not the fault of Pogba, Dalot et al. The opposition can too easily overload us with only the back four and double pivot playing a disciplined role off the ball. Defending needs to be a near entire team effort.
You can still play Bruno, Ronaldo and two of Sancho, Greenwood and Rashford together, but you cannot allow the four of them to play how they did against Villarreal and Leicester with these very attack minded roles. For me, Ronaldo is still the most reliable contributor in attack, so if you build around him and want to maximise his goals then the others need to have tailored roles with that in mind. Bruno needs to performing a more disciplined, recognisable midfield role, rather than playing as a second striker vacating the midfield. Our wide players need to work smartly off the ball and contribute to the team defensively. If primarily Rashford or Greenwood are stretching the play in behind at times, the other needs to be play a more supportive role linking with the rest of the midfield. That’s what I hoped Sancho would do. Right now, I’d favour Lingard’s off the ball movement and midfield workrate though. Regardless, the two players in these wider berths need to be willing to up their workrate and track back with real regularity or they aren’t going to be regular starters. Greenwood against Villarreal made Dalot look an utter mug. Both Sancho and Greenwood did little more yesterday against Leicester’s wing backs.
Can't play Ronaldo, Pogba and Fernandes. There is no system that can accomodate all 3, regardless of manager. I would imagine that's what he's referring to.
Well, you can play them in a 4-3-3, and looking at our squad I would still advocate that is the system with the greatest potential. The elephant in the room though is Bruno Fernandes. A 4-3-3 has no room for a roaming #10. Against Villarreal we lined up in a 4-3-3, but still had Bruno roaming everywhere and had both wingers high up the pitch. Whilst Dalot had no support in the first half from Greenwood, he wasn’t helped by Bruno constantly vacating his midfield channel either.
People talk a lot about Pogba’s and now Ronaldo’s failings, but it is time we asked more of Bruno and for him to do his share of adapting his game for the betterment of the team. I want to see Bruno playing a more disciplined midfield role, both with the ball and without it. He needs to recognise the times when the team just needs to either keep possession or its shape to regroup. He also needs to appreciate that forlornly chasing down the ball in isolation isn’t a virtue, as you leave gaps for the opposition to move into. Didn’t we learn that with Rooney? Bruno’s one of our players who needs to work smarter rather than harder. I hope it is not going to take a new manager to make it understood that we are really tactically limited if we can only field Bruno as a roaming #10
Against teams where we need more midfield combativity, you can add Fred in one the midfielder berths as a ball-winning midfielder and either drop one of Pogba or Bruno, or play Bruno as one of the front three.
The wide forwards I addressed in the response to the previous post, so won’t rehash again.