He meant if we build new presumably? I do love that Colts stadium design and it certainly fits with Manchesters Industrial heritage. That stadium looks massive but only holds 70,000. I wonder what a 90-100k capacity take on that would look like.
Old Trafford revamp/could be torn down and rebuilt according to Glazer plans
- Thread starter GE
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He meant if we build new presumably? I do love that Colts stadium design and it certainly fits with Manchesters Industrial heritage. That stadium looks massive but only holds 70,000. I wonder what a 90-100k capacity take on that would look like.
Exactly. The Glazers just sit in their mansions laughing at the United fans and how stupid we all are. They literally throw us a bone every time we make enough noise about being unhappy and then when we go to chew on that bone we realise that it was never there. Why would the Glazers pour massive amounts of money into a new stadium when they sell out the current one and have basically zero incentive to. They have neglected OT for a long time. Why would they suddenly change tact. They will spend as little as possible in as many areas as possible to maximise their profits.
There were pictures in the Telegraph article (14/3/22) that if there was a new stadium it would be built to the north west of the current position, so we could continue to play at OT without a problem, until the new stadium was finished, saving a fortune and reducing the build time. (I can't post pictures, maybe someone can.) This and the fact Spurs didn't own the land, is what jacked up their price. United own all the car parks north and south of the river and all the way down to the railway line. They also own and lease out the freight yard to the west of the car parks, on a short term lease. I think it's a 3 to 5 year lease and it's close to renewal. Possibly a reason why this has come up again or because of the Glazers PR spin away from the Superleague mess.
Buying the freight yard was done before the Glazers came in when United under David Gill when we were looking at updating the ground in the early 2000's and were struggling with Network Rail and came up with rebuilding as a Plan B. There are discussions about this on here both in the early 2000's, the early 2010's and in 2019, if you look back. It comes up when everyone gets board every 3-5 years and nothing happens under the Glazer's.
The womens/youth team stadium would be built on the OT current site possibly retaining the pitch or some of the historic features of Old Trafford and would be c20-40k seats or be easily expandable if only 20k.
Rebuilding is competitive in terms of price as redeveloping OT. Network Rail would charge us a fortune to close the line for rebuilding the south stand, even if it was for a few weeks. The longer it takes to redevelop, the more it would cost. There would be no income from the south stand while it was rebuilt. In addition there would also be reductions in match day revenue as you improve the north, east and west side to improve leg room, site lines and install the big TVs for VAR reviews, let alone sorting out the big issues of atmosphere and good WiFi in an old stadium. You could also gain revenue by what you add outside the ground for supporters instead of having car parks such as fan parks, an external museum, fan experience centre, separate concert venue, rides, big wheel, circus, any other crap for tourists etc as well as making it look prettier like a park and less like an industrial estate.
Buying the freight yard was done before the Glazers came in when United under David Gill when we were looking at updating the ground in the early 2000's and were struggling with Network Rail and came up with rebuilding as a Plan B. There are discussions about this on here both in the early 2000's, the early 2010's and in 2019, if you look back. It comes up when everyone gets board every 3-5 years and nothing happens under the Glazer's.
The womens/youth team stadium would be built on the OT current site possibly retaining the pitch or some of the historic features of Old Trafford and would be c20-40k seats or be easily expandable if only 20k.
Rebuilding is competitive in terms of price as redeveloping OT. Network Rail would charge us a fortune to close the line for rebuilding the south stand, even if it was for a few weeks. The longer it takes to redevelop, the more it would cost. There would be no income from the south stand while it was rebuilt. In addition there would also be reductions in match day revenue as you improve the north, east and west side to improve leg room, site lines and install the big TVs for VAR reviews, let alone sorting out the big issues of atmosphere and good WiFi in an old stadium. You could also gain revenue by what you add outside the ground for supporters instead of having car parks such as fan parks, an external museum, fan experience centre, separate concert venue, rides, big wheel, circus, any other crap for tourists etc as well as making it look prettier like a park and less like an industrial estate.
How much would Network Rail charge?
As for the Lucas Oil stadium, yeah it's great and it looks industrial contemporary (or what ever it's called...) . If the Glazers are serious which I doubt they'd probably go with the same architects - HKS...who also designed the SoFi stadium, which is regarded as the best stadium in the world.
Yeah I agree with that concern. 20-30k increase would put more challenges but I would like to have a design like the colts one but even better if you know what I mean. I think it can be done with advanced engineering and architectural designs. I think if we have to throw money at a new stadium, it should be thrown at something like that. Just take inspiration from the colts one and better it 2 times.
I don’t like today’s modern stadiums one bit unlike most people when they say wow. There is no wow. They all look the same. Same design same inside same outside. You see Allianz Arena, Allianz stadium, Wanda metropolitano, Spurs stadium, Emirates, New San Mames which all look the same to me. If United get a new stadium we would look exactly the same as anyone. We won’t be having a unique and best stadium just because we have more money. These are the current designs going on and even with some change it would still look very similar to the above. Only the design like colts one can satisfy me. Looks, authenticity, heritage, modernity , uniqueness, feel of old Trafford it would have all I believe.
Neville is right about the culture needing a change but you don't have to pull down OT to do that. Look no further than our cousins in Merseyside to see what's possible with the right culture from top to bottom. Rennovate OT, yes. Pull it down, no.
Anfield looks cheap and was done on a budget. Their architects designed the new Wimbledon ground and to they'll be extending Leicester's and Palace's grounds. Nah, they can keep their ground. We need something spectacular.
Yeah I think so too. But these kind of stadiums stay best only for few years before someone else comes up with better design, better engineering etc. The best thing for us would be to mix a perfect blend of everything rather than going out for a flashy and best modern design point of view only. The hollowness and soullessness comes from there.
I'd be happy enough with us being spectacular on the pitch!
To be fair United was that soulless bowl in 1915. It was a soulless bowl in 1994. I'm not sure what soulless means...but if it means bland or boring then it's totally subjective. And yeah most things improve with time. A new stadium will look dated in two decades but costs will keep soaring. Today a billion, tomorrow 2 or 3?
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Do you think so, Old Trafford is merged with our history? I would always prefer to revamp OT.
I read somewhere that the Glazers are looking to sell ALL the land around OT, including the stadium itself to property developers. Part of the agreement would be that they build us a new stadium and lease it back to us. I know this is the model they use in the US. Such wonderful owners....
I'm not sure they'd get away with that.
There would be a revolución.
No idea but I got the impression it was millions per day it was closed. It would depend on how many days. You would have to ask United what they were quoted but in both the quadrant expansion in the early 2000's and in the 2019 discussions reporters said United were shocked at how much they wanted and so didn't go ahead with redevelopment of the south stand as they thought it would be much lower.
I think redevelopment would cost 60-85% of rebuilding and redevelopment might not solve all the problems that rebuilding would. The south stand alone would probably be 40-45% of rebuilding.
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I personally don't want them to knock OT down. I'd prefer renovation. A new stand is needed to complete the full square all round.
Just because other clubs built new stadiums doesn't mean we should.
Just because other clubs built new stadiums doesn't mean we should.
I'm not sure how much of the historically significant bits remain. It got hacked about a hell of a lot in the mid-70s when the Executive Suite got built on the top and back of it, and I think the whole of the interior got gutted and rebuilt when the players' tunnel was moved to the Stretford Paddock corner.
I wish there was a reliable timeline (complete with dated photos) for all the changes that took place over the 1965-2005 era.
It also hasn't got a main line railway running alongside it. It's turning into a proper dog's breakfast, though without the charm. Wimbledon's new ground looks nice, but it's not exactly on Old Trafford's scale.
Chelsea are worse off than us; they have railway lines on two sides.
Surely it's still got much of the original/post war structure? True, it's been gutted and the tunnel has moved but it still looks like the stand The Babes played in front of.
The way the new Anfield Road will connect to the Main Stand looks awful. It really is a budget stadium.
For the avoidance of doubt, the freight yard to the west of the Stretford End is very much still in operation; it's Manchester's main container depot.
There's been a lot of talk about relocating it in recent times; not for United's benefit, but because massively long and slow freight trains trundling along Manchester's main cross-city passenger line (the dreaded Castlefield Corridor) aren't exactly easy to accommodate among all the passenger trains. It's a major capacity constraint.
It's not just cost that's the obstacle. The current location is very popular with users, and putting it somewhere more remote wouldn't go down well.
There's been a lot of talk about relocating it in recent times; not for United's benefit, but because massively long and slow freight trains trundling along Manchester's main cross-city passenger line (the dreaded Castlefield Corridor) aren't exactly easy to accommodate among all the passenger trains. It's a major capacity constraint.
It's not just cost that's the obstacle. The current location is very popular with users, and putting it somewhere more remote wouldn't go down well.
Well I suppose most of the concrete terracing that the seats are bolted to is original. And the back wall, though I haven't walked through the tunnel underneath the Executive Suite for ages. We always arrive at the last minute for games, and get away ASAP afterwards, so as to spend more time in the pub. If the weather's nice one day next week I'll have an explore.
Scousers shouldn't be allowed Nice Things
Its not just about ego or the club flexing though. It’s about a stadium that can last the next 50-100 years not the next 10.
Scousers shouldn't be allowed Nice Things
Too right!
I meant with the roof. We wouldn't need a retractable roof, as is customary in NFL and fits with the Colts stadium design of a warehouse/factory with an old pointed roof. I agree I'd love something as striking and different as that, no doubt. I just don't see why they'd sanction a $1bn stadium that was designed and engineered to fit with a retractable roof.
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The inside of that SoFi stadium looks pretty incredible. The outside looks like a mall.
Does no one like the way the seats of Old Trafford are cramped and uncomfortable? It adds to the experience. Everything nowadays is so clean and polished. I love the charm of Old Trafford, and old stadiums in general.
Accidentally quoted myself
Nah not a fan of the cramped leg room and small seats. I think you're probably in the minority, I suspect that modern day fans and fans of the future would prefer a better match going experience. I've never been one to hold on to the past and nor have United historically - when OT was built it was the best and most modern stadium in the world. We were the first club with exec boxes and cantilever stands. We've always looked forward, goptun.
That said I'd love to watch a game at Craven Cottage.
True enough Spoony, you may well be right. I'm a sentimental person so would struggle to get on board with demolishing Old Trafford, no matter how swanky or how much leg room a new build would provide. Historic stadiums like OT have an energy that modern football stadiums don't seem to have.
Real Madrid have done a quality job on the Bernabeu, haven't they? Get that railway line sorted and we're in business.
roof on the stadium as well would be a great idea.
Yeah I don't disagree. Keeping the South and doing the rest in phases would be ideal and hopefully keep everyone happy.
They aren't increasing capacity so it is about improving the fan experience and exec suites.
I do think sentiment plays into it but I can't help but think that memories build those feelings. Some like to say the Emirates is soulless or whatever but that's because it coincided with Arsenal's decline. If they had won the league playing there then fans would have those memories to fall back on. The counter point is that Juventus have done amazingly well while reducing capacity and creating a better stadium, its full more often and they've got tonnes of new memories playing there. Similarly, Atletico and Bayern have had great success in their new stadiums and fans seem to love them. The Atletico fans in particular have taken to the Wanda Metroplitano.
While it’s the oldest part of the ground, there’s not much of the old South Stand that’s original, other than it’s basic structure and the concrete terracing, that houses the seating.
The post WW2 ( and bomb damaged repaired) roof was replaced with the current cantilever roof only a few decades ago, so it looks nothing like it did in the 70’s and 80’s, or before.
Then there’s the large executive seating area. Not very original.
Plus, a lot of the internal layout has been modified and repurposed over the years, not to mention the executive suites and restaurants that were built on the back and cover the “tunnel”.
If a new stadium is built, the proposed smaller stadium for the women’s and U23’s etc, could retain parts if the South Stand, if it was thought appropriate and practical.
I saw my first match as a 5 year old at OT in 1960 and mainly sat there in the South Stand with my Dad from the late 60’s, through the 70’s and 80’s, except when I went with my mates and stood on the Stretty or old Scoreboard end.
I regularly saw Law, Best, Charlton , Nobby and co. from those seats. Cheered on the Doc’s swashbuckling lads and got dazzled by Big Ron’s glinting gold jewellery from the same stand.
Loads of memories and nostalgia, but I’d vote for it to be torn down without hesitation.
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The post WW2 ( and bomb damaged repaired) roof was replaced with the current cantilever roof only a few decades ago, so it looks nothing like it did in the 70’s and 80’s, or before.
Then there’s the large executive seating area. Not very original.
Plus, a lot of the internal layout has been modified and repurposed over the years, not to mention the executive suites and restaurants that were built on the back and cover the “tunnel”.
If a new stadium is built, the proposed smaller stadium for the women’s and U23’s etc, could retain parts if the South Stand, if it was thought appropriate and practical.
I saw my first match as a 5 year old at OT in 1960 and mainly sat there in the South Stand with my Dad from the late 60’s, through the 70’s and 80’s, except when I went with my mates and stood on the Stretty or old Scoreboard end.
I regularly saw Law, Best, Charlton , Nobby and co. from those seats. Cheered on the Doc’s swashbuckling lads and got dazzled by Big Ron’s glinting gold jewellery from the same stand.
Loads of memories and nostalgia, but I’d vote for it to be torn down without hesitation.
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Agreed. I've been to OT 15 times in total and the seats leave me with leg pains every single time. I'm moderately tall at 191cm and it makes matchdays physically uncomfortable.
I'm 6'2 and I don't feel physically uncomfortable? Maybe I'm distracted by the horrors being witnessed on the pitch..
EDIT. also usually a few beers in.
I’d much rather keep Old Trafford because of the history. I don’t care about the short term issues of ground sharing or reduced capacity, we need to focus on the long term goal.
If we are knocking down old Trafford for a rebuild then the new stadium should have a huge capacity. I don’t have any statistics about demand for tickets but I do know that at least half a dozen of the matches I applied to this season went to ballot because demand was so high and that season ticket demand is similarly always high. This is without us ever even making an effort to sell tickets. They just sell on their own but we would likely sell more if people knew that there were tickets available.
If we are knocking down old Trafford for a rebuild then the new stadium should have a huge capacity. I don’t have any statistics about demand for tickets but I do know that at least half a dozen of the matches I applied to this season went to ballot because demand was so high and that season ticket demand is similarly always high. This is without us ever even making an effort to sell tickets. They just sell on their own but we would likely sell more if people knew that there were tickets available.
It's not the same stand. Only very small parts of the original (basically the ramped concrete flooring of the old players' tunnel) are said to survive, then it was rebuilt following the WWII bombing. It was then rebuilt a second time in the 1970s to replicate the north stand that was itself rebuilt in time for the 1966 World Cup. That stand wasn't the first cantelever at a football ground, either. That honour went to Scunthorpe United's Old Show Ground in 1958.
Is the abstract concept of 'history' for the sake of a pitch being a few hundred metres in one direction rather than another worth the exorbitant additional costs and playing at some other stadium for 3 years?