Nurse Lucy Letby - guilty of murdering 7 babies - whole life sentence

balaks said:
Are you Hercule Poirot?
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Just a basic level of human understanding here, that's all. I find it very hard to believe that anyone this clean could suddenly turn into one of Britain's most notorious murderers, and it's not just that she's clean, but well thought of, highly regarded, hard working, with a perfectly normal social life for a 28yo, a perfectly normal appearance (and yes that is a factor whether people like it or not, you can tell a lot by the way a person presents themselves to the world), she seems to have a perfectly healthy relationship with her parents as far as we can tell (who are still together), and then when you add in that she's been bailed - for the murder of 8 babies!! Even the police must be having their doubts. This has miscarriage of justice written all over it.

Penna said:
You've still missed the point, @Boogie Man. All that information has been dug out years after her conviction, and may or may not all be true (some of it is opinion given with hindsight). I was saying that at the time she was arrested, she seemed to be just a regular young woman.
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Fair point, there is clearly a lot of information we're missing on this, mind you, I'm still highly confident on this one, because I think SOMETHING, ANYTHING would have come to light by now if there was a hint she was dirty.

Well, I'm going to stay quiet on this one now until more emerges, I've said my piece, I think in a respectful non-wumming way, and I don't think I have anything more to add for now.
 
There is a reason that even the world's most qualified psychiatrists don't make judgments if someone is capable of murder about public figures or anyone they have not extensively clinically examined. Its simply impossible to come to any sort of meaningful conclusions based on someone's appearance. Its literally complete rubbish to assume someone is innocent (or guilty) based on how they look and superficial analysis of googling a background.
 
Boogie Man said:
I find it very hard to believe that anyone this clean could suddenly turn into one of Britain's most notorious murderers, and it's not just that she's clean, but well thought of, highly regarded, hard working, with a perfectly normal social life for a 28yo, a perfectly normal appearance (and yes that is a factor whether people like it or not, you can tell a lot by the way a person presents themselves to the world), she seems to have a perfectly healthy relationship with her parents as far as we can tell (who are still together), and then when you add in that she's been bailed - for the murder of 8 babies!!
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Dude...

Richard Angelo was a respected nurse and firefighter (he poisoned 25 of his patients, btw).

HH Holmes was a well respected doctor.

Ted Bundy volunteered for a suicide hotline.

BTK was a deacon in his church.

The list for serial killers who lived completely “normal” day to day lives is immense. There’s a reason why they get away with it for years and years.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
There is a reason that even the world's most qualified psychiatrists don't make judgments if someone is capable of murder about public figures or anyone they have not extensively clinically examined. Its simply impossible to come to any sort of meaningful conclusions based on someone's appearance. Its literally complete rubbish to assume someone is innocent (or guilty) based on how they look and superficial analysis of googling a background.
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Just nothing fits with this one though, nothing. I hate to keep using this word, but everything, everything, seems so 'normal' when it comes to her. No signs of any particular attention seeking on her social media or otherwise (apart from maybe an interview with a local rag she did years ago, but even that was so mundane there doesn't seem to be anything too unusual there, but that's the only slight thing that gives me pause for thought), no signs of erratic behaviour, no aggression we know of, normal parents, normal upbringing, no signs of mental instability, normal house, normal appearance, been doing well in her career, normal social life, and every quote I can find has said something positive about her (mixed in with surprise).

As I say, I am so confident I bang on about this one, that if I'm wrong I leave this board and never come back! I know I'm right though, she's no murderer. At worst, at very worst, maybe they'll try and pin some negligence or malpractice charge on her, maybe even manslaughter, but even that I'll be surprised about.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
There is a reason that even the world's most qualified psychiatrists don't make judgments if someone is capable of murder about public figures or anyone they have not extensively clinically examined. Its simply impossible to come to any sort of meaningful conclusions based on someone's appearance. Its literally complete rubbish to assume someone is innocent (or guilty) based on how they look and superficial analysis of googling a background.
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Yep, it's a load of Schatner.
 
hobbers said:
I think it's more likely than not that the police have made a mistake here, but for absolutely none of the bolded reasons you listed. Rather just on the basis that she's been bailed after her house and her parents house were poured over and the police still seem to have no tangible leads on how or why she did what they're suspecting of her.

All the reasons you listed in bold are irrelevant. If we just play devils advocate and assume she's guilty for a second, then she didn't "suddenly" do anything. She will have always been wired to lead a seemingly normal and productive life, while harbouring whatever drives these murders deep within her and doing her best to act on them without raising suspicion. That is perfectly plausible.

The thing about being well raised and presentable and sociable is that hiding a dark true nature is actually far easier, and so many people like this are either never caught or evade detection for a very long time.
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I've known a lot of people who are messed up (maybe not to this degree), but none of them have been able to hide who they are very long. There's always clues there. I suppose you could turn round and say "well those that do manage to hide who they are, you would have never known they were messed up anyway"... and I suppose that would be a valid point, but I'm not so sure those people even exist.
 
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We need to let the police know they can stop worrying, Boogie Man has this one solved.
 
Carolina Red said:
Dude...

Richard Angelo was a respected nurse and firefighter (he poisoned 25 of his patients, btw).

HH Holmes was a well respected doctor.

Ted Bundy volunteered for a suicide hotline.

BTK was a deacon in his church.

The list for serial killers who lived completely “normal” day to day lives is immense. There’s a reason why they get away with it for years and years.
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I don't know much about those cases, other than Ted Bundy, all I can say though is having a respectable job is not the same as being a 'respectable' person or 'normal'.

PS I'm pretty sure even Ted Bundy had a criminal record before he committed his more serious crimes. This girl, Lucy Letby, seems to be completely clean, or at least someone would have let spill by now (you would think) if she'd committed even a minor offence.
 
Boogie Man said:
I don't know much about those cases, other than Ted Bundy, all I can say though is having a respectable job is not the same as being a 'respectable' person or 'normal'.

PS I'm pretty sure even Ted Bundy had a criminal record before he committed his more serious crimes. This girl, Lucy Letby, seems to be completely clean, or at least someone would have let spill by now (you would think) if she'd committed even a minor offence.
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Hey guess what everyone has a clean record until they get caught.
 
balaks said:
Hey guess what everyone has a clean record until they get caught.
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Yeah, but most people build up to murder with other crimes first, or at least unusual behaviour, they don't just do it straight off the bat! I suppose she could have just been getting away with other stuff, but I'm sceptical, someone would have known something.

Well, we'll see who is right about this.
 
Carolina Red said:
Dude...

Richard Angelo was a respected nurse and firefighter (he poisoned 25 of his patients, btw).

HH Holmes was a well respected doctor.

Ted Bundy volunteered for a suicide hotline.

BTK was a deacon in his church.

The list for serial killers who lived completely “normal” day to day lives is immense. There’s a reason why they get away with it for years and years.
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Indeed.
We can add to that list the recent cold case solved of the Golden State Killer from the 70s and 80s who was just identified from DNA evidence this year. Joseph James DeAngelo was an ex-cop who lived a superficially normal life even raising two daughters to be successful all the while his family had no clue about his serial killer double life. The idea that someone who appears "normal" cannot be capable of murder has been disproven many times over. If DNA technology had not reached this point, this killer and rapist never would have been caught because of his double life.
 
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If she is innocent, then I wonder if certain parties have made her a scapegoat for the poor running/performance of her unit.

If guilty, then her motivation is of paramount importance.
 
Boogie Man said:
Just nothing fits with this one though, nothing.....
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If you are so convinced she is innocent why are you posting her picture and repeating name in this thread?
I only know know what she looks like and what her name is is because you posted it.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
If you are so convinced she is innocent why are you posting her picture and repeating name in this thread?
I only know know what she looks like and what her name is is because you posted it.
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Well I won't post her name again, but to be fair it's all over every tabloid and broadsheet in the country, not to mention social media and all the rest of it, so me not mentioning it, is like the equivalent of throwing a deckchair off the titanic. But point taken.
 
Boogie Man said:
I don't know much about those cases, other than Ted Bundy
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Well, if you’re gonna come in talking about how you can’t believe someone might be a serial killer, it might help you to research those names I put in that list, as they’re some of the most notorious serial killers of all time, who were also well respected and liked by the folks who knew them.

Heck, look up Todd Kohlhepp, a serial killer recently caught living near my hometown.

He literally owned property on the same road as my in-laws and was a successful real estate agent.
 
Carolina Red said:
Well, if you’re gonna come in talking about how you can’t believe someone might be a serial killer, it might help you to research those names I put in that list, as they’re some of the most notorious serial killers of all time, who were also well respected and liked by the folks who knew them.
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Someone has been watching way too much Criminal Minds.
 
Carolina Red said:
I do love that show. I’ve been into studying serial killers though since I was a kid. The Jack the Ripper series with Michael Caine as Aberrline did it for me.
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Me too, and I really love the whole criminal psychology stuff.

But I don't think I'd be so quick to rule someone out for murder just because she's reasonably pretty and her parents like her.
 
Boogie Man said:
Yeah, but most people build up to murder with other crimes first, or at least unusual behaviour, they don't just do it straight off the bat! I suppose she could have just been getting away with other stuff, but I'm sceptical, someone would have known something.

Well, we'll see who is right about this.
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I reckon you pulled that claim out your arse.
 
I've never once said she is pretty, good looking, hot or anything of the sort! So you guys are arguing a strawman here.

What I've repeatedly said (and this is just one factor), is she looks like she takes care of her appearance, and looks after herself, where as I would expect a killer to have either let themselves go, and not give a monkeys about their appearance, or to have gone the other way and done themselves up like a dog's dinner. One extreme or the other, as you'd expect from someone with an extreme personality. She's done neither one or the other... she is just middle of the road... normal.

Again, don't misinterpret me here, this isn't the be all and end all, her appearance alone doesn't mean she's not necessarily a murderer, but when you add it up with all the other clues, I'm just not seeing a killer here.

I am going to be vindicated at the end of all this, you'll see!
 
Boogie Man said:
I've never once said she is pretty, good looking, hot or anything of the sort! So you guys are arguing a strawman here.

What I've repeatedly said (and this is just one factor), is she looks like she takes care of her appearance, and looks after herself, where as I would expect a killer to have either let themselves go, and not give a monkeys about their appearance, or to have gone the other way and done themselves up like a dog's dinner. One extreme or the other, as you'd expect from someone with an extreme personality. She's done neither one or the other... she is just middle of the road... normal.

Again, don't misinterpret me here, this isn't the be all and end all, her appearance alone doesn't mean she's not necessarily a murderer, but when you add it up with all the other clues, I'm just not seeing a killer here.

I am going to be vindicated at the end of all this, you'll see!
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I think you are barking mad but I admire your confidence.
 
Harold Shipman. A benign and respectable looking GP who came across as someone who liked nothing more than a pint of real ale in a glass with a handle, a pipe, and The Times crossword whilst watching the cricket.

Except he killed an estimated 250 people.

You can't tell killers by looking at them ffs.
 
Boogie Man said:
I've never once said she is pretty, good looking, hot or anything of the sort! So you guys are arguing a strawman here.

What I've repeatedly said (and this is just one factor), is she looks like she takes care of her appearance, and looks after herself, where as I would expect a killer to have either let themselves go, and not give a monkeys about their appearance, or to have gone the other way and done themselves up like a dog's dinner. One extreme or the other, as you'd expect from someone with an extreme personality. She's done neither one or the other... she is just middle of the road... normal.

Again, don't misinterpret me here, this isn't the be all and end all, her appearance alone doesn't mean she's not necessarily a murderer, but when you add it up with all the other clues, I'm just not seeing a killer here.

I am going to be vindicated at the end of all this, you'll see!
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Err ok.

As for being vindicated, I think the only person that could be is the woman herself. You are just doing some amateur psychology on an internet forum, do you expect some kind of applause if she is found guilty of manslaughter but not murder or something?
 
balaks said:
I think you are barking mad but I admire your confidence.
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When God was handing out empathy, I think he gave me 5 helpings too much. It's been both a blessing and a curse.

Javi said:
:lol: Almost forgot about him!

We can add Andrew Cunanan (Gianni Versace's killer) to the list also. Decent-ish Netflix documentary about the guy aired just earlier this year.
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Andrew Cunanan was a massive attention seeker.

Redlambs said:
As for being vindicated, I think the only person that could be is the woman herself. You are just doing some amateur psychology on an internet forum, do you expect some kind of applause if she is found guilty of manslaughter but not murder or something?
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No, if she's guilty of gross negligence or malpractice or something, then we'll probably have to call that a tie.

Can you imagine what it must feel like though, to be accused of killing 8 babies when you didn't do it? Being accused, merely because you are statistically the most likely culprit. Having your name dragged through the dirt like this. Having people think that of you - the entire nation! You'd probably want someone fighting your corner too if you were in that situation. Thing is, the mere accusation means she can never be fully vindicated now. Even if she clears her name, she literally won't be able to even get a job at Burger King, in case she puts something in the happy meals.
 
Boogie Man said:
When God was handing out empathy, I think he gave me 5 helpings too much. It's been both a blessing and a curse.



Andrew Cunanan was a massive attention seeker.



No, if she's guilty of gross negligence or malpractice or something, then we'll probably have to call that a tie.

Can you imagine what it must feel like though, to be accused of killing 8 babies when you didn't do it? Being accused, merely because you are statistically the most likely culprit. Having your name dragged through the dirt like this. Having people think that of you - the entire nation! You'd probably want someone fighting your corner too if you were in that situation. Thing is, the mere accusation means she can never be fully vindicated now. Even if she clears her name, she literally won't be able to even get a job at Burger King, in case she puts something in the happy meals.
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Dude you have never even met this person. You are empathising with a photograph.
 
balaks said:
Dude you have never even met this person. You are empathising with a photograph.
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I've seen enough, and not just photographs. Time will be my judge. Although I have a suspicion that the CPS are going to drop the charges before this sees a courtroom. I'm not going to say 'definitely' on this one, but I think it is a major possibility.
 
All I'm getting here is murderes are ugly and let them self go.

Surely it's bizarre in itself if someones life is that normal?
 
Boogie Man said:
I don't know much about those cases, other than Ted Bundy, all I can say though is having a respectable job is not the same as being a 'respectable' person or 'normal'.

PS I'm pretty sure even Ted Bundy had a criminal record before he committed his more serious crimes. This girl, Lucy Letby, seems to be completely clean, or at least someone would have let spill by now (you would think) if she'd committed even a minor offence.
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In the 1970s my father in law used to share part of his daily commute with Dennis Nilsen who was friendly and always let on and occasionally chatted with him. Dennis had served in the Army and police force with no problems and had settled in London where at the time he was rising through the ranks of the Job Centre. Nobody suspected a thing until the police found body parts in the drains outside his house and knocked on his door to take a general statement only for him to confess to 15 murders and necrophilia.

Psycopathy and sociopathy mean that it is practically impossible to judge someone at face value, just look at how many years Harold Shipman got away with murder as the respectable family doctor.
 
Boogie Man said:
Can you imagine what it must feel like though, to be accused of killing 8 babies when you didn't do it? Being accused, merely because you are statistically the most likely culprit. Having your name dragged through the dirt like this. Having people think that of you - the entire nation! You'd probably want someone fighting your corner too if you were in that situation. Thing is, the mere accusation means she can never be fully vindicated now. Even if she clears her name, she literally won't be able to even get a job at Burger King, in case she puts something in the happy meals.
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This applies to everyone who's been accused of a serious crime, had their name made public and then subsequently been found to be innocent. That poor guy who was absolutely vilified by the press in the Joanna Yeates murder case had nothing at all to do with it, but because he was older and lived alone he had his private life raked over for a long time.
 
Bury Red said:
In the 1970s my father in law used to share part of his daily commute with Dennis Nilsen who was friendly and always let on and occasionally chatted with him. Dennis had served in the Army and police force with no problems and had settled in London where at the time he was rising through the ranks of the Job Centre. Nobody suspected a thing until the police found body parts in the drains outside his house and knocked on his door to take a general statement only for him to confess to 15 murders and necrophilia.

Psycopathy and sociopathy mean that it is practically impossible to judge someone at face value, just look at how many years Harold Shipman got away with murder as the respectable family doctor.
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A lot of people who are in the army see traumatic things though, and who knows what that might do to a person when you throw into the mix some other experiences they've had or in this person's case these sexual fantasies he had. The army can change people, with PTSD and all the rest of it, and can push relatively sane people over the edge. This girl has never been in the army. And Harold Shipman was a GP, so he would have hardly dealt with other healthcare professionals, and when he did he was probably the most senior person the majority of the time, and people tend to question strange behaviour from seniority less than they would anyone else.
 
Has anyone ever questioned your strange behaviour?

What you hear in virtually every major murder case and particularly serial killer trials is the same "they were an ordinary, everyday, likeable person", "always friendly", "kind to the neighbours", "we would never have suspected them", "wouldn't hurt a fly" type of thing. The deranged, degenerate killer repelant to society is a myth from horror films. Yes, there are sometimes the odd things in their past that might be seen as triggers or stand out as early warning signs but they are invariably discovered in hindsight and usually through the confessions of the killer when trying to explain how/why they got started. In Nilsen's case he confessed to having touched his sleeping siblings, to having been a closeted gay for his entire life and to having been kidnapped and bundled into the boot of a taxi during his military service in Aden which he turned on the kidnapper by knocking him out with a tyre iron and locking him in his own boot prior to escaping and returning to base where he saw no serious military action spending most of his time on cooking duty. He was wholly unremarkable to practically everbody who met him with the exception of his victims and attempted victims.
 
Bury Red said:
Has anyone ever questioned your strange behaviour?

What you hear in virtually every major murder case and particularly serial killer trials is the same "they were an ordinary, everyday, likeable person", "always friendly", "kind to the neighbours", "we would never have suspected them", "wouldn't hurt a fly" type of thing. The deranged, degenerate killer repelant to society is a myth from horror films. Yes, there are sometimes the odd things in their past that might be seen as triggers or stand out as early warning signs but they are invariably discovered in hindsight and usually through the confessions of the killer when trying to explain how/why they got started. In Nilsen's case he confessed to having touched his sleeping siblings, to having been a closeted gay for his entire life and to having been kidnapped and bundled into the boot of a taxi during his military service in Aden which he turned on the kidnapper by knocking him out with a tyre iron and locking him in his own boot prior to escaping and returning to base where he saw no serious military action spending most of his time on cooking duty. He was wholly unremarkable to practically everbody who met him with the exception of his victims and attempted victims.
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The mere fact he was in the army would have given me pause for thought (I wouldn't even need to know about the incident with the taxi driver or his fantasies). It's like with this girl, if she'd been in care, or even just had an estranged relationship with her parents, or something, it would give me pause for thought. But there's just nothing here, nothing.

I'm telling you, they've got the wrong girl!
 
Boogie Man said:
The mere fact he was in the army would have given me pause for thought (I wouldn't even need to know about the incident with the taxi driver or his fantasies). It's like with this girl, if she'd been in care, or even just had an estranged relationship with her parents, or something, it would give me pause for thought. But there's just nothing here, nothing.

I'm telling you, they've got the wrong girl!
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We had national service at the time although I think Dennis extended his service, my father in law and my old man both did military service around the same time as him as would every other able bodied male in the UK.

People are not easy to judge at face value or through a cursory glance at their background. As Penna has mentioned, the old guy originally suspected of Joanna Yeats' murder was absolutely crucified in the press because he looked a bit weird and was the stereotypical loner who just happened to have been her landlord and the press had to pay out a fortune in compensation for their defamation of him when it turned out to be somebody else who to all intents and purposes was a normal looking young bloke who lived nearby with his girlfriend.

chris-jefferies.jpg


On the housing estate I grew up on there was a bloke with mild Downs Syndrome maybe 10 years older than us who lived on the other side of the main road to the bus stop we took to school and he would always get shit off the rougher kids in terms of name calling and occasionally physical abuse. In my early 20s I was working on Bury market during Uni holidays and one morning the bus station was on complete lockdown with police tape everywhere, turns out this blokes elderly mother (Shirley Leach) had been to visit her daughter in Cheadle and after getting off the bus was raped and brutally murdered in the station toilets. He was the instant suspect and although there was no evidence and charges his life was ruined and I believe he ended up in a care home on the other side of Manchester near his sister. Fast forward 12 years and a normal looking family man from our estate was in a crash and suspected of drinking so along with the breathalyser they took a routine DNA swab at which point he was arrested for the unsolved murder he committed in his early 20s.

What you are doing is the reverse of this, it's impossible to declare somebody innocent because you find them normal looking and can't see any of the telltale signs all killers have. Those telltale signs are a media fiction concocted in hindsight most of the time but unfortunately for Chris Jefferies sometimes with an absence of foresight.
 
Bury Red said:
We had national service at the time although I think Dennis extended his service, my father in law and my old man both did military service around the same time as him as would every other able bodied male in the UK.

People are not easy to judge at face value or through a cursory glance at their background. As Penna has mentioned, the old guy originally suspected of Joanna Yeats' murder was absolutely crucified in the press because he looked a bit weird and was the stereotypical loner who just happened to have been her landlord and the press had to pay out a fortune in compensation for their defamation of him when it turned out to be somebody else who to all intents and purposes was a normal looking young bloke who lived nearby with his girlfriend.

chris-jefferies.jpg


On the housing estate I grew up on there was a bloke with mild Downs Syndrome maybe 10 years older than us who lived on the other side of the main road to the bus stop we took to school and he would always get shit off the rougher kids in terms of name calling and occasionally physical abuse. In my early 20s I was working on Bury market during Uni holidays and one morning the bus station was on complete lockdown with police tape everywhere, turns out this blokes elderly mother (Shirley Leach) had been to visit her daughter in Cheadle and after getting off the bus was raped and brutally murdered in the station toilets. He was the instant suspect and although there was no evidence and charges his life was ruined and I believe he ended up in a care home on the other side of Manchester near his sister. Fast forward 12 years and a normal looking family man from our estate was in a crash and suspected of drinking so along with the breathalyser they took a routine DNA swab at which point he was arrested for the unsolved murder he committed in his early 20s.

What you are doing is the reverse of this, it's impossible to declare somebody innocent because you find them normal looking and can't see any of the telltale signs all killers have. Those telltale signs are a media fiction concocted in hindsight most of the time but unfortunately for Chris Jefferies sometimes with an absence of foresight.
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You're making a bit of a false equivalence here. The bar is set quite high when we are finding someone guilty of a crime, as it should be, it needs to be beyond reasonable doubt. Judging guilt by someone's looks simply will not do in a British court (and you'd hope in any court). And the burden of proof is on the prosecution here to find guilt, and they'd normally be expected to produce evidence of motive, means & opportunity. The defence doesn't actually have to do anything, it doesn't even have to prove innocence, although a good defence should be picking holes at the prosecution's case. If the prosecution is going to put forward a case, then they are really going to want to show motive. Now I don't know all the psychological conditions that would cause a person to kill 8 babies, but if, for example, the prosecution tried to claim the defendant was some kind of crazy attention seeker, then the defence could then show these photos to the jury, and pose the question "does this social profile really look the work of an attention seeking murderess to you, or is it more likely, the social profile of an ordinary 28yo nurse".

Wouldn't be the be all and end all of the case, we still don't know what the prosecution are going with here, or whether they even have a case, I think people are getting a bit bogged down to appearance here, but it could be a factor and a card the defence may want to play.
 
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