Not sacking managers early enough

[bosnian_red]

We did sack Moyes early.

We didn't sack LvG early, but the upshot was that we got an FA Cup win out of keeping a sense of stability.

We did sack Mourinho early in the season we went off the rails.

In the case of Ole, the board simply don't see a manager that fits the bill. Zidane didn't want to come and Conte was seen as the wrong option.

People have been crying out for a DoF for years to ensure that there's continuity from manager to manager. Well... this is what it looks like! Keeping continuity meant not appointing Conte.

We'll appoint the right man at the right time. The wrong man (whether that's Ole or Rodgers) won't win us anything either way, so it's pointless to complain about it.

United will get someone like Ten Hag in the summer and then it'll all make sense. If we don't, that'll be the time to worry.

Sacking early means sacking them with the intention of saving the season, not wasting the season away. Moyes should have been sacked in early December, not April. Van Gaal should have been sacked at Christmas, not after the season. A more proactive club probably would've sacked Mourinho after the Sevilla games. Ole should have gone last week, we'll see how the season goes from here, but it's basically half a year too late every time and the season withers away into nothing as a result. Barcelona and Spurs sacked their managers as their season was only heading one way. Chelsea did it last season. Once the slide really starts happening, there's pretty much no evidence to support it ever changing, apart from Sir Alex. He's the 1 and only exception to the rule.

I see your point about waiting for the right guy... but I think that's more of a hope than a fact.

 

[Zaphod2319]

Anyway back to the thread, biggest issue for me is the long contracts and high salary we give out which puts the board off taking these decisions.

some managers are getting a fortune off continually being sacked, maybe it’s time clubs don’t pay people for getting sacked

I think this is why you are seeing bigger clubs giving 18 month contracts with add on based on performance.

 

[Dante]

In other words, you are saying that we should trust the board (who have failed repeatedly since SAF's departure) and give them till the Summer to come up with a plan.
I work in business. I buy houses and if a person or group of people fail to do their job for my business, I am reluctant to hire them again. If they repeatedly fail (as our board has), I'd be a fool to re-hire them.
I'm no fool and I don't trust the board to make the right decision.
Spurs, have just hired a serial winner, while with one of the best squads in World football, we celebrated a draw against a team who most people outside of Italy have not heard of.

We have a new structure at the top these days. If it was just Woodward and the Glazers, I think they'd have had FOMO and pulled the trigger on Conte. If anything, the fact we're keeping our powder dry suggests that Fletcher and Arnold have already made a noticeable change to the way we used to do things.

 

[Bubz27]

he will get a decent job after United

This will be interesting to see. Obviously depends on what you mean by decent, but I don't see another premiership club going near him. Be interesting to see if he gets a job at a decent level slim Spain or Italy.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

This will be interesting to see. Obviously depends on what you mean by decent, but I don't see another premiership club going near him. Be interesting to see if he gets a job at a decent level slim Spain or Italy.

He’ll be sought after in Norway

 

[HarryP]

I agree with the OP on virtually everything apart from one point. I think they were too slow to sack Moyes too. We all knew it was never going to work with Moyes after the 2-2 home draw against Fulham in early February. He should've been sacked at that point. Keeping him on for another few months allowed a deeper rot to set in, as was the case with Van Gaal and Mourinho.

 

[Abraxas]

Ole would be able to get a job in a top league. Christ, a top flight Spanish club gambled on Moyes after the utter train wreck that was his United tenure.

Ole by comparison can argue he's done a reasonable job and he will have supporters of that view. There will always be a team willing to take a chance on a former United manager that's done okay. If he fails in that role I think it'd be a long way back, but that's hypothetical and goes for many managers.

I've more of a reservation as to whether he'd want to. He's reached the pinnacle from his point of view. Do you want to go to a random side that's not necessarily anywhere near this level? Maybe, I don't know what his motivations are.

 

[Chairman Steve]

Finishing second or third when you are never in a title race, and are more than a dozen points behind the champions, is no achievement for a club of United's stature. It simply isn't. If that's what passes for progress then somebody shoot me.

I guarantee there’s a section of people who shat on Jose finishing 2nd but way behind City are the same people who praise OGS for finishing 2nd but way behind City.

The contradicting reactions for basically the same event don’t sit well for me.

 

[Denis79]

I’m onboard with replacing ole but this is total utter bollox

I was watching the match last night and just thinking that he’d do well in Italy

he will get a decent job after United

Also think a newly promoted or a team fighting for relegation would offer him a job. His counter football would be perfect for a lesser side. He's done at this level though.

 

[Amir]

Also think a newly promoted or a team fighting for relegation would offer him a job. His counter football would be perfect for a lesser side. He's done at this level though.

They might remember Cardiff, though.

 

[FriedClams]

Anyway back to the thread, biggest issue for me is the long contracts and high salary we give out which puts the board off taking these decisions.

some managers are getting a fortune off continually being sacked, maybe it’s time clubs don’t pay people for getting sacked

I am actually very keen to understand where this trend started? I assume the LMA managed to convince all the owners and chairmen/women that huge payouts was a good thing for all concerned, but it really does seem like a reward for failure.

 

[Majima]

he’s better than just a Molde manager and like Moyes he will find his level some day

What makes you say that? He wasn't that rated even in Norway. He had 3 years there winning nothing, and the Molde fans wanted him sacked before he came here. The current Molde manager is doing much better.

 

[Lentwood]

We're top of the CL group by sheer luck and Ronaldo, and it's still touch and go. Just like a month ago people were saying Solskjaer is doing well because we're top, then just a point of the top, then just two points off... and now it's eight.

It should be about more than being top of a good but not an awfully strong CL group. It should be more than having just finished 2nd. A smart club should look at the quality of football and realise whether it's going places or not. You could see for over two years now that it is not. At least not the places we aspire to.

That's why talking about 'it's only ten games' is wrong. It's 14 games, in the league and in the CL, in which you could see this team had no direction. In reality it's far more than that - over two years. And the blindness of the board, or their total lack of football understanding, now gets us to this awful, awful situation in many people are finally awake to his poor he is and accept he should go, still want to keep him because 'there's no one to replace him right now'. All this when the four possibly best coaches in the world are working in the Premier League - for other clubs.

How on earth did we let this happen. It's a clusterfeck of epic proportions.

It's got nothing to do with saying 'there's no one to replace him right now', it's about making sure the next manager is a considered choice and not just a knee-jerk appointment based on going in to panic mode after a few poor results.

As I said before, I am not even commenting here on whether Ole should stay or go. There are plenty of threads to have that argument. What I am saying is, we gain little by sacking Ole right at this very moment, with no obvious replacement lined-up.

 

[Lentwood]

When a far better manager (Tuchel) was available! Should have been a no-brainer. Chelsea had the sense to do it even though they were doing ok with Lampard. They were similar to us under Ole, inconsistent and underwhelming but haven't looked back since bringing Tuchel on board.

When Tuchel became available we were within 3/4pts of the top of the table. You honestly think you would have sacked the manager at that point?

 

[troylocker]

I'm not a fan of sacking managers with high frequenzy.

We saw how he did in a lesser club. Relegated followed by getting sacked for being on the verge of another relegation. So yup, I think he is worse than people think.

I still can't believe people are still using his Cardiff stint as a yardstick for his qualities as a manager. He took over a Cardiff in free fall mid-season. They were going to get relegated no matter what Ole did there. He made the mistake of bringing in 3 young Norwegian players he had worked with before, dodgy as hell since he also had shares in their managers holding company, but his track record with strenghtening us here has been very good. He was sacked 7 games into the season in the Championship well above the relegationline, so bolded part is just bollocks. He should never have taken the job and should never have brought in the Norwegian youngsters. No one could have saved Cardif from relegation that season, so it was a project doomed to fail from the start.

We could possibly have achieved what Chelsea have if we were run to win everything available, not just come 4th in the league.

I thought we finished 2nd above Chelsea last season. 3rd and above Chelsea the season before that too....I think we are trying to win every tournament we play too, we're defo not just participating.

My point was just that using a bad example from an 8 month stint at a club that was in free fall before he arrived there 8 years ago as proof of Ole's low ceiling as a manager or a "1 of" example from a club changing managers midseason as an argument for sacking a manager is not the way to go. What he did at Cardif is irrelevant for what he does here now and what Chelsea did last season is just as irrelevant.
What worries me though is that we have been so terribly bad defensively and have kept doing the same mistakes over and over again lately. We lack balance and concede too many easy and early goals. I'm not 100% sure Ole is the man to fix this, but if he is, he needs to fix it asap if he wants to stay at the job. I can tolerate a loss against City, but after that we need to stop the bleeding and get out of the CL group for him to stay past christmas in my opinion.

 

[Amir]

As I said before, I am not even commenting here on whether Ole should stay or go. There are plenty of threads to have that argument. What I am saying is, we gain little by sacking Ole right at this very moment, with no obvious replacement lined-up.

Maybe, though I think he's so poor we can easily improve on him, even if only appointing someone as a caretaker. Also, there might not be an 'obvious' replacement, but maybe we should have been looking beyond the only two obvious names- Zidane or Conte. But United don't do anything other than obvious.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

We took too long to sack Moyes too. Not sure why the club waited until it was mathematically impossible to qualify for the CL. When it could’ve been done way before so a new manager could have a chance to quality for it.

LVG had a run of bad games where the football was stale and we lost often. Kept him on.

Mourinho should have gone after the Sevilla debacle

Reduced the compensation payout didn't it?

 

[Marwood]

I guarantee there’s a section of people who shat on Jose finishing 2nd but way behind City are the same people who praise OGS for finishing 2nd but way behind City.

The contradicting reactions for basically the same event don’t sit well for me.

There are differences in how those second spots were achieved but in relation to this thread how many were asking for Jose to be sacked after that second place finish? Not many I bet. Yet here we are with quite a large group saying Ole should have been gone in the summer. I think that's the contradiction.

If you wanted Ole gone this summer then you should have wanted Mourinho gone the summer after his 2nd place finish.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

This is why it was such a stupid fecking decision to renew Ole’s contract. If they’d just held off until the summer then when the shit hit the fan this season they could’ve sacked him and payed very little in compensation as his original deal was up soon.

 

[Denis79]

They might remember Cardiff, though.

Yeah maybe, a former colleague of mine was Welsh and a Cardiff fan, he said Ole was the worst manager they ever had but I guess you feel like that after getting relegated.

 

[Flytan]

He’ll be sought after in Norway

Yeah because of who he was as a player and his nationality and not because of his merits as a coach. It's sad

 

[Flytan]

There are differences in how those second spots were achieved but in relation to this thread how many were asking for Jose to be sacked after that second place finish? Not many I bet. Yet here we are with quite a large group saying Ole should have been gone in the summer. I think that's the contradiction.

If you wanted Ole gone this summer then you should have wanted Mourinho gone the summer after his 2nd place finish.

If the fan base had known going into the summer that the board was going to change how they did transfers and refuse to get mourinho who he wanted I think a lot of the fan base would have thought it best he be sacked because of how he would obviously react. The fans didn't know though and it was just rumors so we couldn't have that opinion fairly

 

[Marwood]

If the fan base had known going into the summer that the board was going to change how they did transfers and refuse to get mourinho who he wanted I think a lot of the fan base would have thought it best he be sacked because of how he would obviously react. The fans didn't know though and it was just rumors so we couldn't have that opinion fairly

But when the season ended, after finishing second, did you want Mourinho sacked?

 

[Flytan]

But when the season ended, after finishing second, did you want Mourinho sacked?

Did you just ignore my post and repeat the question on purpose?

Oh you're comparing Mourinho and Ole. No it's not the same situation because Ole hasn't proven he could win anything relevant at all and his football was incredibly inconsistent. He had no pedigree and has the job solely because of nepotism. Mourinho proved he could win trophies previously and had the pedigree to deserve to manage United. The situations aren't the same. But yes, finishing second doesn't mean you shouldn't be sacked. Ole should have and so should have Mourinho if they were just going to literally poke the bear in the transfer window.

 

[AneRu]

Agreed. Hiring managers isn't an exact science - the likes of Bayern, Chelsea and Madrid make plenty of wrong appointments. But they're smart enough to move on from them quickly, and then give it another go.

This. I think the board is traumatized by how some seemingly straight forward appointments didn't work out and seem to think that admitting a mistake early on and rectifying it is beneath them.

We are also hung over on finding the next Fergie when we should admit that Fergie was a one off and the factors that are needed to recreate it go beyond patience and massive investment - the manager's qualities and the state of competition also play a major role because you can't dwell on a five year rebuild with City and Liverpool being rampant as they are right now, you risk being left behind for a very long time.

 

[Amir]

There are differences in how those second spots were achieved but in relation to this thread how many were asking for Jose to be sacked after that second place finish? Not many I bet. Yet here we are with quite a large group saying Ole should have been gone in the summer. I think that's the contradiction.

If you wanted Ole gone this summer then you should have wanted Mourinho gone the summer after his 2nd place finish.

Personally I wanted them both gone after their second-place season for the exact same reason: I did not think their football was going to take us any higher, on the contrary.

My original stance towards them was different: I totally wanted us to sign Mourinho, I totally did not want us to give Solskjaer the job permanently. At the end of the day, the football talked.

 

[Beans]

I wonder if Woodward doesn't want to make a decision on this as he's leaving.

 

[Dookingham United]

Lampard was sacked 25th January after finishing 4th the season beforehand and with the team in 6th place entering the 2nd half of the season.

Ole has just finished 2nd, it's 3rd November, we are 3pts off 3rd and we are top of our Champions League group. Now, I am not saying Ole should or shouldn't be sacked at this point, I am just saying that 10 games IS pretty knee-jerk, whichever way you look at it. Why not wait until we have found the right man first? Do you get the impression we have someone lined up to take over? Because I don't.

10 games into a season is knee-jerk for sure, but the board should be looking at how the team has performed since he took over which has been well below the standards of Manchester United. No-one can deny that.
We were supposed to be in a title chase this year, it will be a miracle if we finish above 4th and it will be down to individual talent if we get past first knockout stage of CL, not our coaching staff.

The people who run our club should have been able to see 2 years ago that Ole and his chums are way out of their depth and at the very least sounded out the options.
After Young Boys and the Atalanta first close call, they should have been ready to offer a contract to the top managers available (Zidane/Conte/etc who are all infinity better than Ole) and then when we had the utter humiliation at OT by Liverpool the trigger should have been pulled.

We have not sacked this manager fast enough.

We could have been Chelsea, top of the league with a manager who knows how to play football. (With our fixtures we should be top now)

 

[Flytan]

I wonder if Woodward doesn't want to make a decision on this as he's leaving.

Honestly I think it's the opposite. He's extended his stay here since this whole crisis begins. I wonder if Murtough/Arnold are too afraid to have that be their first big action. Woodward is mediocre/bad at his job so I have no reason to believe his buddies would exactly be up for the challenge of sacking the manager as their first major act.

 

[frostbite]

I’m onboard with replacing ole but this is total utter bollox

I was watching the match last night and just thinking that he’d do well in Italy

he will get a decent job after United

He is a nobody in Italy, he is not getting a job there.

But he will probably be able to get a job in Turkey or somewhere like that.

 

[Revan]

There are differences in how those second spots were achieved but in relation to this thread how many were asking for Jose to be sacked after that second place finish? Not many I bet. Yet here we are with quite a large group saying Ole should have been gone in the summer. I think that's the contradiction.

If you wanted Ole gone this summer then you should have wanted Mourinho gone the summer after his 2nd place finish.

We got 7 more points with Jose compared to Ole, Chelsea had Conte instead of Lampard as manager, and Liverpool did not have their entire defense injured. We also managed to qualify from group stages of UCL with Jose (we couldn’t with Ole). By most metrics, we did better with Jose.

For what is worth, I wanted both out at the end of that season (in all honesty, I wanted Jose out after the debacle vs Sevilla and Ole out for a long time, but it became crystal clear to me after we got eliminated in group stage of UCL).

 

[EricIn93]

The board are trying to make it a Man Utd 'values' or 'way' thing by giving people time as they did with SAF. In the football world it is bad business. The decision making at the top with regards to managers and contracts has been terrible for a decade.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

I still have no idea how LvG survived that run in December 2015.

 

[Marwood]

We got 7 more points with Jose compared to Ole, Chelsea had Conte instead of Lampard as manager, and Liverpool did not have their entire defense injured. We also managed to qualify from group stages of UCL with Jose (we couldn’t with Ole). By most metrics, we did better with Jose.

For what is worth, I wanted both out at the end of that season (in all honesty, I wanted Jose out after the debacle vs Sevilla and Ole out for a long time, but it became crystal clear to me after we got eliminated in group stage of UCL).

Conte or not Chelsea lost 10 games that season and finished 5th. Liverpool obviously weren't the team they are now even with a fully fit backline. Apart from City nobody had a good season. It was poor all round. We were just the least bad.

I'd put Ole's 2nd place sligtly ahead because it was at times very exciting, there was some good football and with this squad there's increased hope for the future.

But yeah fair enough you wanted both out after their respective 2nd place finishes.

But despite wanting that can you understand the club not sacking the managers at that point? I can. I wanted Jose out but knew it was unrealistic to expect him gone end of 17/18. Same with Ole after last season.

 

[JebelSherif]

I agree with the OP on virtually everything apart from one point. I think they were too slow to sack Moyes too. We all knew it was never going to work with Moyes after the 2-2 home draw against Fulham in early February. He should've been sacked at that point. Keeping him on for another few months allowed a deeper rot to set in, as was the case with Van Gaal and Mourinho.

This would be OK if David Moyes was managing Qatar or retired or something, but a quick look at the Prem table shows his current club above Manchester Utd. He should have been given more time at Utd, like Sir Alex was, especially as Sir Alex basically appointed him, but they gave it to Giggsy (more nostalia/keep it in the family) same as now, but with OGS, actually.

 

[Tomuś]

I’m onboard with replacing ole but this is total utter bollox

I was watching the match last night and just thinking that he’d do well in Italy

he will get a decent job after United

Do well in a tactically demanding league? Of all the lesgues mate, come on. Also, how on earth did you reach that conclusion after watching the Atalanta game?

 

[sparx99]

Sounds to me like another made-up narrative to use as a stick to beat the club with.

Moyes - lasted less than a season. Had the toughest job in football, and we gave him about 7/8 months.
LvG - was sacked the day after winning the FA Cup, basically because Jose was available
Jose - had just finished 2nd in the table but was sacked before Christmas the following season
Ole - has never had a bad season/finished in a bad league position as United manager. All the rest is conjecture. The facts are we have finished 3rd and 2nd under Ole. At what point were we supposed to sack him?

Again, there are plenty of problems at the club, but this forum has a tendency to exaggerate or just make something up entirely and before you know it, it's getting repeated back everywhere. You could debate whether Moyes could have gone a month or two earlier, same with Jose...but we're talking weeks/months here, not seasons.

I do think we have probably reached the ceiling of Ole's abilities, but what would we have gained by sacking him already? Clearly hasn't lost the dressing room, the situation isn't toxic, we're in the midst of a really tough run of games...hopefully the Board are now seriously sounding out potential options, rather than just panicking and reacting to 3/4 poor results

Ole should have been sacked after losing 6-1 to Tottenham at home as part of a worse start than we’ve had this season. He should have been sacked after a 2nd trophy-less season. Or after losing a run of games in jan/Feb that blew any hope of a title race when we’d had a really good Christmas.

 

[SirReginald]

We have a new structure at the top these days. If it was just Woodward and the Glazers, I think they'd have had FOMO and pulled the trigger on Conte. If anything, the fact we're keeping our powder dry suggests that Fletcher and Arnold have already made a noticeable change to the way we used to do things.

Fletcher, I don’t really know him well but would he personally fire or request that Ole and his back room team be removed, having played with Ole and Carrick at some stage. Would he be loyal to team mates or the club?

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

Conte or not Chelsea lost 10 games that season and finished 5th. Liverpool obviously weren't the team they are now even with a fully fit backline. Apart from City nobody had a good season. It was poor all round. We were just the least bad.

I'd put Ole's 2nd place sligtly ahead because it was at times very exciting, there was some good football and with this squad there's increased hope for the future.

I mean, that's surely more applicable to Ole's 2nd place given he got it with a points total that wouldn't even have been good enough for 4th in 2017/18.

And I definitely wanted Mourinho gone at the end of 17/18, wasn't on this forum then but I imagine there were loads of others that did too. The warning signs set in around the Christmas period that season, and by the time of the Sevilla game it was obvious he was about to enter meltdown mode. Then the pre-season just confirmed it.

 

[Marwood]

I mean, that's surely more applicable to Ole's 2nd place given he got it with a points total that wouldn't even have been good enough for 4th in 2017/18.

And I definitely wanted Mourinho gone at the end of 17/18, wasn't on this forum then but I imagine there were loads of others that did too. The warning signs set in around the Christmas period that season, and by the time of the Sevilla game it was obvious he was about to enter meltdown mode. Then the pre-season just confirmed it.

Yeah true you could say the same about Ole's second place finish. Nothing in it really.

Maybe some wanted Mourinho gone but I don't think there was much clamour for his sacking. If anything a lot of people bought into Mourinho's rhetoric of it being a great achievement.

But from the clubs perspective sacking a manager who just finished second and won a trophy the season before is a big deal.