Not sacking managers early enough

[Iker Quesadillas]

Finishing second or third when you are never in a title race, and are more than a dozen points behind the champions, is no achievement for a club of United's stature.

This is the problem with the PL being a competitive league with lots of money.

There is enough competition that you're unlikely to win the title or even compete for it most years, which means decisions about whether a manager is "good enough" are much trickier to make.

 

[padzilla]

It's almost as if the decision to extend his deal by three years in the summer was unnecessary and has created problems. Or actually it would if the board were interested in challenging for top honours again.

 

[90 + 5min]

Easiest job in football. Or at least form the big clubs.

There is no other big club that would have tolerated a manager spending as much as Ole, winning nothing, not challenging for the big trophies, playing shit football, losing 0-5 at home from the biggest rivals, and still being in the job. None.

Just check Koeman, another legend who scored a goal for that club in the UCL final. Won Copa del Rey last season, finished third in the league (7 points below the champions), lost Messi and Griezmann, and lost only 1-2 to Madrid. Sacked immediately and got assaulted by the fans.

So many wrongs in this.

Manchester United is one of the hardest jobs you can get in football. There are few teams where you are under pressure from every angel. Supporters, media, the Club itself.

We have been challeging for trophies. How many times have we come to semi final? We lost final. We have come 3rd and 2nd in his whole seasons.

We have been demolished before. Even in Fergie days. Newcastle and City games comes to my mind. Were you one of those who wanted Fergie to be sacked then?

So you want us to be more like Barcelona. One club that is fighting for its existens because of poor decisions. And correct me if I'm reading this wrong. But do you mean sacked immediately and assaulted by fans in good way? Do you really think that is okey to assault manager?

 

[oz insomniac]

Ole is out of his depth, but then what does that say about Woodward.

The CEO’s job description is not solely about tractor and cereal sponsorships, it’s about creating and maintaining a momentum that a club which is recognised as one of the top 3 in the world , professionally and results wise. Woodward has spent money, appointed managers and seen the club unable to compete with Citeh , Liverpool and Chelsea. The owners just don’t realise how incompetent the Woodward set up is, he has been kissed on the dick due to financing the Glazers cash free take over.

Being rewarded for that and the owners out of town to what the club needs = where we are. A manager that needs to be replaced, coaching staff that needs revamping and a CEO who should be replaced by a football head , not another UniGraduate known to the current CEO

 

[kerryman]

So progressing the team from 6th, to 3rd, then 2nd is "failing on every credible level" is it?

Granted, this season we have gone backwards and his job is rightly under scrutiny, but recency-bias of simply forgetting what he did do in previous seasons is ridiculous.

Final position in the table doesn't really tell the whole story, it's a false narrative.
The last 3 seasons our points total were: 66, 66 and 74 to get us 6th, 3rd and 2nd. The winners in those seasons were on 98, 99 and 86 so he didn't get us anywhere close to competing for the title really. In fact based on our points total we've almost been standing still as we are on track for about 65 points this season based on points per game over the first 10 games. So yes, to me that is failing given the money spent and the players at his disposal.

 

[Revan]

So many wrongs in this.

Manchester United is one of the hardest jobs you can get in football. There are few teams where you are under pressure from every angel. Supporters, media, the Club itself.

Horseshit. This is what you and geebs were saying, but the time that we give to the managers says differently.

We have been challeging for trophies. How many times have we come to semi final? We lost final. We have come 3rd and 2nd in his whole seasons.

I clearly said challenge for the big trophies. We did not. We finished 33 points below champions in his first full season, and 12 below in his second. That is not challenging in any universe. We got eliminated in the group stage of UCL. Again, not challenging.

I actually said challenge for the big trophies or win the small ones. We did neither.

We have been demolished before. Even in Fergie days. Newcastle and City games comes to my mind. Were you one of those who wanted Fergie to be sacked then?

Yup. We got it occasionally. We are getting routinely under Ole (1-6 vs Spurs, 0-5 vs Liverpool, 4-0 vs Everton etc)

So you want us to be more like Barcelona. One club that is fighting for its existens because of poor decisions. And correct me if I'm reading this wrong. But do you mean sacked immediately and assaulted by fans in good way? Do you really think that is okey to assault manager?

Yup. A club that has won in this century more UCL than us in our entire history, while also winning more league titles. And playing better football. What is there to not like? They are also gonna win their league earlier than we are gonna win ours.

 

[Tom Cato]

Anyway back to the thread, biggest issue for me is the long contracts and high salary we give out which puts the board off taking these decisions.

some managers are getting a fortune off continually being sacked, maybe it’s time clubs don’t pay people for getting sacked

There is a 0% chance that will find legal precedent the way football contracts are written and more importantly understood.

It sounds tempting because we'll have to pay to fire a manager, but something like that sets precedent everywhere and creates a insanely unsafe working environment for football managers and the staff they bring with them who would also fall under the same "If a random board/person does not like you you could lose your income tomorrow" nightmare.

But moreover, the PFA would be all over this since the principle can also apply to players.

And of course no, no one wants to work on "yearly" contracts so thats never going to happen. Work safety is paramount, even a temporary safety.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Totally agree, a complete rewrite of history from the OP

I mean to suggest Jose (or OLE) should have been sacked the summer after finishing 2nd is completely mental

I'm happy with giving managers every opportunity to get through runs of bad form and generally against sacking midseason - only when it's clear that a season is a write off or the players no longer believe in a manger should they be sacked

It's quite obvious that our poor structure off the field in terms of recruitment etc was the problem rather than any individual manager anyway - a lot has been done to address this under Ole (but still not enough) so hopefully things will be better in the long term

It's not mental at all. It was quite obvious to many that was as good as it was going to get for both managers and so it has turned out.

Your approach to sacking managers is exactly what people are complaining about. "Only when it's clear a season is a write off" is basically another way of saying when CL footy is impossible to obtain. So we'd need a Moyes style get knocked out of everything and be way off top 4 in the league for a manager to be sacked. That removes the possibility of a board being proactive rather than reactive.

Our poor recruiting is definitely a problem and that extends to our recruitment of managers. We have decision makers making decisions with huge consequences without enough knowledge and expertise.

 

[Idxomer]

Good post.

I've asked the same question about when Ole should have been sacked. 2nd place finish, europa final, followed by good summer signings. You can't sack him afer that.

These aren't achievements.

 

[DickDastardly]

Well, you can't really blame us.

We had the same guy for 27 years.

That mindset is probably still here, it will be hard to get rid off it.

 

[Marwood]

These aren't achievements.

Agree.

But the question was do you sack the manager after a second place finish(the best snyone expected start of season) and a europa final? Then a good summer of transfers as well.

I think it's time Ole moved on now but there's no way you can sack him in the summer. So as things stand I don't think the club have overdelayed a decision.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

Regarding whether he’d get a PL job again, honestly I would be shocked if any PL team would want him. He didn’t exactly shower himself in glory last time and this time he’s had hundreds of millions to spend and hasn’t even managed to figure out a playing style or tactics and essentially relies on expensive players to bail him out. This won’t work at lower placed PL teams.

 

[stevoc]

It's not mental at all. It was quite obvious to many that was as good as it was going to get for both managers and so it has turned out.

Your approach to sacking managers is exactly what people are complaining about. "Only when it's clear a season is a write off" is basically another way of saying when CL footy is impossible to obtain. So we'd need a Moyes style get knocked out of everything and be way off top 4 in the league for a manager to be sacked. That removes the possibility of a board being proactive rather than reactive.

Our poor recruiting is definitely a problem and that extends to our recruitment of managers. We have decision makers making decisions with huge consequences without enough knowledge and expertise.

Its obvious that some on here would sack the manager after every bad result never mind if they haven't won the league.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

So you want us to be more like Barcelona. One club that is fighting for its existens because of poor decisions. And correct me if I'm reading this wrong. But do you mean sacked immediately and assaulted by fans in good way? Do you really think that is okey to assault manager?

Barcelona are a really bad example.

Their 'Ole' would be Valverde: doing well enough given the circumstances, but not good enough (won league titles against a non-competitive RM, but was humilliated twice in the CL). Barcelona didn't fire him for the 4-0 loss to Liverpool. They kept him, then decided to fire him when the team was 1st, and replaced him with Setién, who finished 2nd and was in charge of an even bigger CL humilliation. This was immediately followed by Messi asking for a transfer request. Why would you want to copy this?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

some managers are getting a fortune off continually being sacked, maybe it’s time clubs don’t pay people for getting sacked

Managers get paid to be sacked because being sacked is part of the job duties (you absorb the responsibilities of the players and the board).

 

[OleBoiii]

 

[Idxomer]

Agree.

But the question was do you sack the manager after a second place finish(the best snyone expected start of season) and a europa final? Then a good summer of transfers as well.

I think it's time Ole moved on now but there's no way you can sack him in the summer. So as things stand I don't think the club have overdelayed a decision.

The 2nd place was the best anyone expected before the season but there was an opportunity to mount a serious title challenge and put real pressure under City and he failed spectacularly. The games and attitude during the period after going top should've set alarming bells ringing around the club but they set the standards so low for Ole, nobody cared. I think he should've been sacked after the Europa final where he froze again and failed to make any tactical changes during the game. It was so clear then he had reached his ceiling.

 

[Rood]

It's not mental at all. It was quite obvious to many that was as good as it was going to get for both managers and so it has turned out.

Your approach to sacking managers is exactly what people are complaining about. "Only when it's clear a season is a write off" is basically another way of saying when CL footy is impossible to obtain. So we'd need a Moyes style get knocked out of everything and be way off top 4 in the league for a manager to be sacked. That removes the possibility of a board being proactive rather than reactive.

Our poor recruiting is definitely a problem and that extends to our recruitment of managers. We have decision makers making decisions with huge consequences without enough knowledge and expertise.

I dont remember anyone asking for Jose to be sacked that summer - complete hindsight revisionism to claim it was obvious

 

[Desert Eagle]

Its obvious that some on here would sack the manager after every bad result never mind if they haven't won the league.

Some on here is not a good measure for anything.

I dont remember anyone asking for Jose to be sacked that summer - complete hindsight revisionism to claim it was obvious

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/josé-mourinho-2018-19-performances.440061/ His performance thread(July 2018) has the following in the first page:

"He'll be sacked within a year. "

"What a major disappointment this guy has been. A shadow of his former self. "

"Dead man walking by Christmas"

"This will be his final season for us. This time next year we'll be discussing how the new manager has a task on his hands to clear out some deadwood, how certain players deserve a second/third/fourth chance under a new manager. Rinse and repeat."

There are plenty more but you get the point.

 

[bosnian_red]

Sacking people too late has always been an issue. We wait for the season to be wasted away essentially instead of seeing the writing and just moving on early.

• Moyes should have been sacked in December after the back to back home losses to Everton and Newcastle
• Van Gaal should have been sacked around Christmas 2015 after losing to bournemouth, Norwich and stoke in successive games
• Mourinho results wise sacked on time, but should've gone in the summer as it was obvious the way it was going
• Ole should've been replaced in the summer, or results wise after the Liverpool game. We'll see when he actually goes.

 

[Hawks2008]

We absolutely take too long. LVG should have been gone after that awful run midway through his second season, Mourinho should have been sacked after the Sevilla debacle, and we are currently delaying the inevitable with Ole yet again. The club loves throwing away seasons and rewarding mediocrity so you get used to it.

 

[bosnian_red]

I dont remember anyone asking for Jose to be sacked that summer - complete hindsight revisionism to claim it was obvious

Loads of people wanted him out in 2018/19 and loads of people were predicting an awful season. Not revisionism at all, but there was a feck ton of pessimism after finishing 2nd and led to a ton of arguing in here. One group just pointing to 2nd, the other pointing to how awful we actually were on the pitch, underlying stats, failure to win a trophy, Mourinhos behavior, etc. That summer was awful.

 

[izak]

We took too long to sack Moyes too. Not sure why the club waited until it was mathematically impossible to qualify for the CL. When it could’ve been done way before so a new manager could have a chance to quality for it.

LVG had a run of bad games where the football was stale and we lost often. Kept him on.

Mourinho should have gone after the Sevilla debacle

Reading through i thought the exact same thing, Overall we waste too much time and our style is dragging us back.

 

[R'hllor]

Loads of people wanted him out in 2018/19 and loads of people were predicting an awful season. Not revisionism at all, but there was a feck ton of pessimism after finishing 2nd and led to a ton of arguing in here. One group just pointing to 2nd, the other pointing to how awful we actually were on the pitch, underlying stats, failure to win a trophy, Mourinhos behavior, etc. That summer was awful.

Yep.

 

[Random Task]

Pestilence of sentimentality FC.

 

[Stactix]

I understand your reasoning and at least you recognize that he could get another job in the PL. he’s better than just a Molde manager and like Moyes he will find his level some day

The scary thing is, the current Molde manager has a higher ppg over a similar amount of games.

 

[Lentwood]

Chelsea sacked their legend mid season when he was showing his ceiling, then won the Champions League in that season. Now it is widely acknowledged that Tuchel is one of the best managers in the world.
We could possibly have achieved what Chelsea have if we were run to win everything available, not just come 4th in the league.

No one wants the board to knee jerk. We want them to have a plan and not be controlled by emotion. If they were competent then Ole would never have got the job full time and a best in class management team would have.

Lampard was sacked 25th January after finishing 4th the season beforehand and with the team in 6th place entering the 2nd half of the season.

Ole has just finished 2nd, it's 3rd November, we are 3pts off 3rd and we are top of our Champions League group. Now, I am not saying Ole should or shouldn't be sacked at this point, I am just saying that 10 games IS pretty knee-jerk, whichever way you look at it. Why not wait until we have found the right man first? Do you get the impression we have someone lined up to take over? Because I don't.

 

[matsdf]

Final position in the table doesn't really tell the whole story, it's a false narrative.
The last 3 seasons our points total were: 66, 66 and 74 to get us 6th, 3rd and 2nd. The winners in those seasons were on 98, 99 and 86 so he didn't get us anywhere close to competing for the title really. In fact based on our points total we've almost been standing still as we are on track for about 65 points this season based on points per game over the first 10 games. So yes, to me that is failing given the money spent and the players at his disposal.

Of course it fecking does, that's the whole whole reason for a league season. 38 games to decide who's the best, and not some random cup games.

 

[Marwood]

First time: at the end of his first season. We finished 6th (same position as when Mourinho got sacked) having won only 2 points in the last 5 matches, so 2 out of possible 15 points.
Second time: covid time. We were in a very bad position in the table and he should have been relieved of duties. To be fair, his Bruno signing changed things and we finished in UCL zone, playing our best football under him, so in hindsight, it was the right decision to not have sacked him.
Third time: at the end of his previous season. Job done, but clearly he had reached his ceiling.
Fourth time: after Leicester match. All these spending, and going backwards.
Fifth time: after Liverpool match (when even some of the most loyal supporters of him changed their tune).

You wanted him sacked end of first season when they only gave him the job the December before? Even if that's what you wanted you can't think the club acted slowly in that scenario. Not many sack a manager end of a season where they only appointed him halfway through.

Regards the rest of the occasions you wanted him gone you have to take into account the conditions. For example pre Bruno look at his selection options, they were terrible. It's not like Tuchel taking over a very good Chelsea squad. Ole inherited a mess. Expectations should have been adjusted accordingly.

Having said that we're approaching a point where it has to be considered. If we continue like this all season and he's still here I think its then fair to say the club has dragged its heels.

 

[Rood]

Some on here is not a good measure for anything.



https://www.redcafe.net/threads/josé-mourinho-2018-19-performances.440061/ His performance thread(July 2018) has the following in the first page:

"He'll be sacked within a year. "

"What a major disappointment this guy has been. A shadow of his former self. "

"Dead man walking by Christmas"

"This will be his final season for us. This time next year we'll be discussing how the new manager has a task on his hands to clear out some deadwood, how certain players deserve a second/third/fourth chance under a new manager. Rinse and repeat."

There are plenty more but you get the point.

Loads of people wanted him out in 2018/19 and loads of people were predicting an awful season. Not revisionism at all, but there was a feck ton of pessimism after finishing 2nd and led to a ton of arguing in here. One group just pointing to 2nd, the other pointing to how awful we actually were on the pitch, underlying stats, failure to win a trophy, Mourinhos behavior, etc. That summer was awful.

Fair enough - I do remember the bad summer and lot of negativity right from the start but Id say the vast majority of fans would have wanted to stick with Jose at that point

Personally for me it makes no sense to sack a manager after coming 2nd unless he's lost the dressing room which I suppose is what happened with Jose eventually

 

[Revan]

You wanted him sacked end of first season when they only gave him the job the December before? Even if that's what you wanted you can't think the club acted slowly in that scenario. Not many sack a manager end of a season where they only appointed him halfway through.

Regards the rest of the occasions you wanted him gone you have to take into account the conditions. For example pre Bruno look at his selection options, they were terrible. It's not like Tuchel taking over a very good Chelsea squad. Ole inherited a mess. Expectations should have been adjusted accordingly.

Having said that we're approaching a point where it has to be considered. If we continue like this all season and he's still here I think its then fair to say the club has dragged its heels.

Yup, exactly. I know that our club wouldn't ever do that, cause the entire club is a shrine to the manager, but it was the right decision back then and said so back then *. We were in a fight for UCL, but finished the season with 2 draws and 3 losses in the final five matches. He had 'steadied the ship' but his limitations were obvious.

The squad he took was not a mess. It had finished second with 81 points (7 more than last year) 5 months before Ole became manager. Not a title-winning team, but hardly a mess.

* Many top clubs sack managers just a few months after appointing them, when it is clear that they are not good enough. Of course, we would never do so. And we will also struggle to win trophies cause of this.

 

[Amir]

Ole has just finished 2nd, it's 3rd November, we are 3pts off 3rd and we are top of our Champions League group. Now, I am not saying Ole should or shouldn't be sacked at this point, I am just saying that 10 games IS pretty knee-jerk, whichever way you look at it. Why not wait until we have found the right man first? Do you get the impression we have someone lined up to take over? Because I don't.

We're top of the CL group by sheer luck and Ronaldo, and it's still touch and go. Just like a month ago people were saying Solskjaer is doing well because we're top, then just a point of the top, then just two points off... and now it's eight.

It should be about more than being top of a good but not an awfully strong CL group. It should be more than having just finished 2nd. A smart club should look at the quality of football and realise whether it's going places or not. You could see for over two years now that it is not. At least not the places we aspire to.

That's why talking about 'it's only ten games' is wrong. It's 14 games, in the league and in the CL, in which you could see this team had no direction. In reality it's far more than that - over two years. And the blindness of the board, or their total lack of football understanding, now gets us to this awful, awful situation in many people are finally awake to his poor he is and accept he should go, still want to keep him because 'there's no one to replace him right now'. All this when the four possibly best coaches in the world are working in the Premier League - for other clubs.

How on earth did we let this happen. It's a clusterfeck of epic proportions.

 

[Dante]

We did sack Moyes early.

We didn't sack LvG early, but the upshot was that we got an FA Cup win out of keeping a sense of stability.

We did sack Mourinho early in the season we went off the rails.

In the case of Ole, the board simply don't see a manager that fits the bill. Zidane didn't want to come and Conte was seen as the wrong option.

People have been crying out for a DoF for years to ensure that there's continuity from manager to manager. Well... this is what it looks like! Keeping continuity meant not appointing Conte.

We'll appoint the right man at the right time. The wrong man (whether that's Ole or Rodgers) won't win us anything either way, so it's pointless to complain about it.

United will get someone like Ten Hag in the summer and then it'll all make sense. If we don't, that'll be the time to worry.

 

[sunama]

This is the problem with the PL being a competitive league with lots of money.

There is enough competition that you're unlikely to win the title or even compete for it most years, which means decisions about whether a manager is "good enough" are much trickier to make.

I'd disagree with this.
If you are the biggest spending club in the league, then you should expect to compete for the league title every year and win it a few times. CFC and MCFC have proven this over the last 10 years.

 

[bosnian_red]

Fair enough - I do remember the bad summer and lot of negativity right from the start but Id say the vast majority of fans would have wanted to stick with Jose at that point

Personally for me it makes no sense to sack a manager after coming 2nd unless he's lost the dressing room which I suppose is what happened with Jose eventually

I think the biggest change against Mourinho came after we lost/completely outplayed to Sevilla in 2018. The end of the season after that felt stale and finished with losing the FA Cup final.

 

[sunama]

United will get someone like Ten Hag in the summer and then it'll all make sense. If we don't, that'll be the time to worry.

In other words, you are saying that we should trust the board (who have failed repeatedly since SAF's departure) and give them till the Summer to come up with a plan.
I work in business. I buy houses and if a person or group of people fail to do their job for my business, I am reluctant to hire them again. If they repeatedly fail (as our board has), I'd be a fool to re-hire them.
I'm no fool and I don't trust the board to make the right decision.
Spurs, have just hired a serial winner, while with one of the best squads in World football, we celebrated a draw against a team who most people outside of Italy have not heard of.

 

[Dominos]

This is the problem with the PL being a competitive league with lots of money.

There is enough competition that you're unlikely to win the title or even compete for it most years, which means decisions about whether a manager is "good enough" are much trickier to make.

There was nothing tricky about judging whether Ole was good enough.

No other half decent team in Europe would ever appoint him in the first place, let alone a top club. That was the 1st clue.

2 and a half years of dreadful performances, that was the 2nd clue.

And this season, Jesus even I didn't expect it to be this bad. How he's survived this long is amazing.

 

[Flytan]

I understand your reasoning and at least you recognize that he could get another job in the PL. he’s better than just a Molde manager and like Moyes he will find his level some day

Hasn't Molde done better both times after he left though?

 

[Amir]

People have been crying out for a DoF for years to ensure that there's continuity from manager to manager. Well... this is what it looks like! Keeping continuity meant not appointing Conte.

It's funny that we now have a DOF type thinking but not an actual DOF who my look beyond the easy big names as replacements.

 

[Loon]

I feel the loss against the Dippers was Solskjaer's "we aspire to be like them (City)" moment for me. Once Moyes said that, I knew he had to go, and I feel the same about Solskjaer. I wish he had been what those early results promised, but he's not the man to take United forward.