Been some time, but I recall Donadoni drifting to the middle a lot. Quite a versatile player and able to operate both in midfield and out in flanks.
Nostalgia Draft: The Final - TheReligion vs Isotope
- Thread starter Physiocrat
- Start date
Well played @Isotope!
Im bowing out. Can't really argue the points and when randoms drop votes and don't explain them.
Not sure how you've escaped in the goalkeeper and defensive match up but it seems Ronaldo, Kaka and Figo are untouchable and in draft world the eye catching attack always gets the casuals tempted.
No hard feelings.. honest
Congrats.
Im bowing out. Can't really argue the points and when randoms drop votes and don't explain them.
Not sure how you've escaped in the goalkeeper and defensive match up but it seems Ronaldo, Kaka and Figo are untouchable and in draft world the eye catching attack always gets the casuals tempted.
No hard feelings.. honest
Congrats.
Well played @Isotope!
Im bowing out. Can't really argue the points and when randoms drop votes and don't explain them.
Not sure how you've escaped in the goalkeeper and defensive match up but it seems Ronaldo, Kaka and Figo are untouchable and in draft world the eye catching attack always gets the casuals tempted.
No hard feelings.. honest
Congrats.
TBH I think Ferrera, Ferdinand, Irwin and Rijkaard is an excellent defence.
Good teams from both and an overall intriguing final match. Kudos to both of you!
This is why I don't see how you guys keep doing variations on the exact same theme. You can tell at the start of a draft which players can win a final and which won't regardless.
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with Team @Isotope , as would be expected of a team making a final. He has improved his defence no end relative to the absolute car crash it used to be. Is it any more than a bunch of good individual players though? How do they augment each other to being more than the sum of parts? I'm not even sure Kaká-Ronaldo works all that well myself. What does Kaká bring to the table that wasn't already part of the peak Ronaldo package?
At the other end I see that all over the place. The back 5, ("static" FML) Makelele unleashing Sammer and Seedorf. In turn that being the best platform I've seen for Hagi. Ever, in any draft, by a mile, and he was a fecking great player. Villa is having a ball there and Weah, whom I typically don't rate as highly as others is also in his element: a baller of a forward, as opposed to a prolific goalscorer.
And, of course, there's the continued overlooking of keepers as match-deciders. Mental.
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with Team @Isotope , as would be expected of a team making a final. He has improved his defence no end relative to the absolute car crash it used to be. Is it any more than a bunch of good individual players though? How do they augment each other to being more than the sum of parts? I'm not even sure Kaká-Ronaldo works all that well myself. What does Kaká bring to the table that wasn't already part of the peak Ronaldo package?
At the other end I see that all over the place. The back 5, ("static" FML) Makelele unleashing Sammer and Seedorf. In turn that being the best platform I've seen for Hagi. Ever, in any draft, by a mile, and he was a fecking great player. Villa is having a ball there and Weah, whom I typically don't rate as highly as others is also in his element: a baller of a forward, as opposed to a prolific goalscorer.
And, of course, there's the continued overlooking of keepers as match-deciders. Mental.
Sorry @TheReligion I opted out of ranting earlier because people get all uppity and read agendas and shit. Nope, god honest true/real opinion.
Top side, would smash it.
Top side, would smash it.
There was also the not insignificant development that baby finally arrived yesterday and had zero interest in getting all worked up over the suitability of Makelele in the Makelele role. Same Makelele that allowed Real to play Ronaldo, Raúl, Figo and Zidane together.
Static my arse.
Static my arse.
That is quite literally EXACTLY how Sammer as libero and Makelele in midfield plays out. In possession Sammer is free to attack because Makelele of all people affords the protection.
You get the best Sammer and the best Makelele, simple really. It's very much the combo I was going for but @TheReligion pipped me to Makelele so ended up having to do some nowhere as clear halfway house thing with De Rossi.
told you soMakelele is very, very underrated around here. It's not only for Real, he was a pillar in Jose's best defensive outlet when he was tactically at his peak.
You would need Sammer to do this at every opportunity and until you do you basically just have Seedorf at CM unless Hagi drops quite a bit deeper. Actually thinking about it that makes some sense if he does that but possibly blunts the attack until Sammer reaches the CM position.
On the game - very hard to separate both sides. I think I voted @Isotope all the way through the final and that side peaked early too - the best from the first round for me.
The Religion upgraded very smart and managed to create a phenomenal defensive unit that is tough to break down.
What it came down for me (by a hair that is) is that probably the game suited TR more than Iso. That defence can hold fort and Villa/Weah are really top notch duo to hit on the counter and sneak a goal.
Also what harms said about Donadoni and Figo makes sense especially if Iso's dominating possession - not so IMO in a more open game with shared possession.
Anyhow congrats @Isotope - great side and deservedly won the whole thing.
The Religion upgraded very smart and managed to create a phenomenal defensive unit that is tough to break down.
What it came down for me (by a hair that is) is that probably the game suited TR more than Iso. That defence can hold fort and Villa/Weah are really top notch duo to hit on the counter and sneak a goal.
Also what harms said about Donadoni and Figo makes sense especially if Iso's dominating possession - not so IMO in a more open game with shared possession.
Anyhow congrats @Isotope - great side and deservedly won the whole thing.
No, Seedorf isn't a lone CM, Makelele is there. If/when Sammer pushes up, Makelele drops to screen instead. Shape is dynamic, you don't have "Makelele matched up to Vieira" and glued to him up and down the pitch or anything of the sort. Why the hell would he? It's Patrick Vieira, Makelele has bigger fish to fry and he regularly served the best fish and chips in this era. Nobody comes close to him in the Masterchef kitchen.
I was thinking mostly when Makelele had the ball which he would pick up relatively deep. That probably wouldn't work quite like that here though with Sammer behind. Still I wouldn't want Makelele in front of Sammer much as on option given the former is somewhat limited in possession.
Will explain my vote because of the comments. That defence is absolutely brilliant from Religion and I was closer to the draw and not voting. But, I can see Ronaldo/Kaka working brilliantly.
Probably the worst kind of attacker for the back 3 as Ronaldo will drag you all over the place and pull Sammer out of his position or in general disrupt that defence. And then of all people you have Kaka behind. Actually, shades of his partnership with Sheva only on a much higher level. Any other striker or partnership and Iso is losing this in my eyes. Peak Kaka is certainly among the least rated players around here, so the argument about individual names winning doesn't hold imo. Bastian/Vieira is also fantastic in midfield with Rijkaard finally intrudeced in CB role and with great ball playing partner (again shades of Rijkaard - Koeman partnership). And in the end I don't rate Hagi, just think that Kaka is a level or two above him.
It is closer to the draw and I certainly understand people voting for Religion (damn, even I went back and forth mostly because I could see his wingbacks winning the game), but opting for Iso is far from any kind of travesty the way it goes here.
Probably the worst kind of attacker for the back 3 as Ronaldo will drag you all over the place and pull Sammer out of his position or in general disrupt that defence. And then of all people you have Kaka behind. Actually, shades of his partnership with Sheva only on a much higher level. Any other striker or partnership and Iso is losing this in my eyes. Peak Kaka is certainly among the least rated players around here, so the argument about individual names winning doesn't hold imo. Bastian/Vieira is also fantastic in midfield with Rijkaard finally intrudeced in CB role and with great ball playing partner (again shades of Rijkaard - Koeman partnership). And in the end I don't rate Hagi, just think that Kaka is a level or two above him.
It is closer to the draw and I certainly understand people voting for Religion (damn, even I went back and forth mostly because I could see his wingbacks winning the game), but opting for Iso is far from any kind of travesty the way it goes here.
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Thanks, man. Agreed it peaked early, and no massive improvements were made other than certain area. Partly because the first two picks restriction. Others I should have picked better reinforcements.
@Physiocrat @Edgar Allan Pillow I think after Game 1, i've tried to make it clear about Donadoni and Figo. Both are creative wingers/wide midfielders that can come infield. Especially Donadoni who played many times as CM. And Figo as wide playmaker with Portugal.
Thanks, Jim. Have to be honest, having Ronaldo, Kaka, Figo as first 3 picks is a bit of a cheat code.
A little story here, I was riding my luck to Final that Kaka wouldn't be banned, as my option for him is Djorkaeff (another fabulous creative 2nd striker). Then it was down to me that Ronaldo and Djorkaeff would work on paper, but somehow they didn't click in real world at Inter.
Thought Religion had a slightly better team but given he has Hagi who i dont rate* in a key role i stayed away from voting, specially as iso's team is good as well.
* Similar to Ibrahimovic, Riquelme, Valderrama and zillion others, great player but for the level below elite one and this games ia see as even higher level then elite level at regular football considering the quality of pretty much everyone.
* Similar to Ibrahimovic, Riquelme, Valderrama and zillion others, great player but for the level below elite one and this games ia see as even higher level then elite level at regular football considering the quality of pretty much everyone.
Well played @Isotope!
Im bowing out. Can't really argue the points and when randoms drop votes and don't explain them.
Not sure how you've escaped in the goalkeeper and defensive match up but it seems Ronaldo, Kaka and Figo are untouchable and in draft world the eye catching attack always gets the casuals tempted.
No hard feelings.. honest
Congrats.
Thanks, man. Sorry for those massive shite talks on my part. I'm not a massive fan of Hagi, and it seems like I underate Villa as striker. So there we go.
Only time i was convince that I'd lose in games were against Himmanv and Enigma in the past. Other than that, I've always thought my side is better
.So then, for me, it becomes a tedious arguing with my limited football knowledge against others.
Thankfully, I've had @Joga Bonito who've been crafted the initial strategy ever since, and I just stick to his throughout the game. (and he never voted for me, so maybe he actually think my Team is shite).
Speaking of which, I've asked @Physiocrat to mention Joga as assistant for Final. Kinda feel guilty taking all credit when other has been helping massively.
Edit: I was replying to Jim and Sjor here, not the post directly above.
Aye, precisely, no matter how well you construct the side, the lesson is don't bother with the Hagi's of this world as come the final they'll be "a tier below" even if everything in place in front, behind and around him is perfect for him to have a storming game.
That's one of ten outfield players but the relative importance is magnified. In the meantime, the same "at this level" logic of course never applies to the guy who actually keeps the ball out of the net.
Crazy stuff.
If anything was characteristic of the era in question, it was the death of the #10 at the hands of Makeleles and the gradual disappearance of wingers/wide midfielders and favouring of fullbacks owning the flanks at both ends.
You had that battle played out right here, more so with Hagi having no Makelele on him but a B2B pair (which never really stopped #10s before, did it?).
Draft imagination 1 - Real World outcomes 0
Aye, precisely, no matter how well you construct the side, the lesson is don't bother with the Hagi's of this world as come the final they'll be "a tier below" even if everything in place in front, behind and around him is perfect for him to have a storming game.
That's one of ten outfield players but the relative importance is magnified. In the meantime, the same "at this level" logic of course never applies to the guy who actually keeps the ball out of the net.
Crazy stuff.
If anything was characteristic of the era in question, it was the death of the #10 at the hands of Makeleles and the gradual disappearance of wingers/wide midfielders and favouring of fullbacks owning the flanks at both ends.
You had that battle played out right here, more so with Hagi having no Makelele on him but a B2B pair (which never really stopped #10s before, did it?).
Draft imagination 1 - Real World outcomes 0
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I thought that was really clever actually, you neutered a regular likely to vote/comment favourably on your oppo. A double-pointer that
Kudos on the final defensive pair, it's hard to sustain momentum when you start from pole position with attacking talent but a ragged band at the back. Rio is just about the only CB out there you could pair up with washed up Rijkaard and make him look mint to me.
Forgot to vote, I was on the fence but leaned towards Religion. I don’t rate Weah as high as some do, I guess, he was a wonderful player to watch, but I always felt that he lacked something (probably goalscoring-wise) to reach top-top level. And yeah, I know that he won Ballon d’Or, but still. If there was, say, Sheva in his place, I wouldn’t think twice.
In the end the only ill feeling that I have after this is that keepers got overlooked yet again, and I had hoped that the situation on that front was slightly improving. Probably should’ve voted if only for Buffon’s sake.
Anyway, congrats @Isotope. If keepers are a downside of this victory, the fact that a team with a makeshift (but more than competent) right back won it is certainly something that I like.
In the end the only ill feeling that I have after this is that keepers got overlooked yet again, and I had hoped that the situation on that front was slightly improving. Probably should’ve voted if only for Buffon’s sake.
Anyway, congrats @Isotope. If keepers are a downside of this victory, the fact that a team with a makeshift (but more than competent) right back won it is certainly something that I like.
Hagi type in modern game disappeared because he wasn't bothered to move his lazy arse. I can't see how is he perfectly placed to influence the game with Bastian seemingly in more of holding role here (the way I see it)
Keeper point is valid, on that I agree.
. It wasn't much tbf, just a post or two. I just don't vote or post in games if I made any sort of contribution to it.Congrats!
I thought that was really clever actually, you neutered a regular likely to vote/comment favourably on your oppo. A double-pointer that
Kudos on the final defensive pair, it's hard to sustain momentum when you start from pole position with attacking talent but a ragged band at the back. Rio is just about the only CB out there you could pair up with washed up Rijkaard and make him look mint to me.
Man... except against harms side, he's upbeat about my chances against others. Not much his vote could help me with any of the score, anyway.Congratulations!
Congrats, man. Just think about happy things then. Starting with my team.
So, has a name for the little angel already? Not Zubizareta, is it?
Oh yes indeed, congrats @antohan!! Just don't drop the baby and all good (Ravelli had few of those during his time)
Thanks, harms. Gk is a strange one. I personally don't really pay much attention on Gk when voting, unless if it's a sheep or something.
Posted earlier when I was about 7 down hence the pissed off tone. Finished work and can see there's been plenty of discussion and the score is fairly close. Enjoyed getting involved in the draft again and thanks for those that voted and liked the team I put together. Thought I'd nailed the personnel and system but sadly not meant to be.
I wanted to have a different kind of magician as my number 10 and knew, as @antohan mentioned, that certain players are divisive and sadly don't get picked often. Obviously Hagi isn't everyone's cup of tea and I knew the risk (damn he was brilliant to watch though and an absolute character) but thought the platform for him was pretty much made to see him shine similarly with Sammer and Makelele. Also thought the many proven partnerships across the pitch would swing it (Cannavaro and Buffon, Sammer and Kohler, Dani Alves and David Villa) but again it didn't pay off.
Dabbled with the idea of playing Bebeto as a false 9 or SS at one point and would have enjoyed to get him minutes but felt the two up top with Hagi at 10 to roam was the best way to go in terms of creativity and balance.
Anyway well played @Isotope and enjoy the draft win! Top man.
I wanted to have a different kind of magician as my number 10 and knew, as @antohan mentioned, that certain players are divisive and sadly don't get picked often. Obviously Hagi isn't everyone's cup of tea and I knew the risk (damn he was brilliant to watch though and an absolute character) but thought the platform for him was pretty much made to see him shine similarly with Sammer and Makelele. Also thought the many proven partnerships across the pitch would swing it (Cannavaro and Buffon, Sammer and Kohler, Dani Alves and David Villa) but again it didn't pay off.
Dabbled with the idea of playing Bebeto as a false 9 or SS at one point and would have enjoyed to get him minutes but felt the two up top with Hagi at 10 to roam was the best way to go in terms of creativity and balance.
Anyway well played @Isotope and enjoy the draft win! Top man.
Also big big thanks to the legend @Pat_Mustard who has been a great sound board for my ideas and has helped get my write ups and graphics together (it's hard without a lap top and everyone needs a touch of mustard in their life )
Absolute gent. Looking forward to concentrating on the next one now.
)Absolute gent. Looking forward to concentrating on the next one now.
Think you can seperate Hagi's career into two parts athletically. First part 82-94 where he was a mobile and involved player( if not too talented defensively) that has covered a good area of the pitch, working the entirety of the final third and dropping back closer to centre-mid when needed. I don't think think this player is a liability off the ball at elite levels even if he might not be optimal in every system.
Second part from 95-retirement, struggles at Barca (who weren't stable overall as a team either at the time) and picks up some injuries after about 11 years of football on the clock, typical time players started to slow down for those era. This one is more typical of the cliche 10 that can destroy any team on his good day, but also get shut out entirely on an off-day due to work-rate/mobility issues. the sort of player that for every manager that will try and accomodate them at a big club, another won't risk it.
I think the main turning point in his career as far as how he's viewed all-time was if he stayed at Real Madrid where he settled and played really well in his 2nd season, but from what i've read was having a hard time settling in Madrid/adapting outside of Romania (didn't get on with Di Stefano at all initially) and dealing with all the bullshit around the club, something entirely new from the regimented existence in Steaua, so willingly "derailed" his career prospects to go to Brescia because it had Lucescu as manager and Mateut, Sabau and Raducioiu all playing there. a comfort zone.
Second part from 95-retirement, struggles at Barca (who weren't stable overall as a team either at the time) and picks up some injuries after about 11 years of football on the clock, typical time players started to slow down for those era. This one is more typical of the cliche 10 that can destroy any team on his good day, but also get shut out entirely on an off-day due to work-rate/mobility issues. the sort of player that for every manager that will try and accomodate them at a big club, another won't risk it.
I think the main turning point in his career as far as how he's viewed all-time was if he stayed at Real Madrid where he settled and played really well in his 2nd season, but from what i've read was having a hard time settling in Madrid/adapting outside of Romania (didn't get on with Di Stefano at all initially) and dealing with all the bullshit around the club, something entirely new from the regimented existence in Steaua, so willingly "derailed" his career prospects to go to Brescia because it had Lucescu as manager and Mateut, Sabau and Raducioiu all playing there. a comfort zone.
To expand on my earlier comment, I didn’t really see either side scoring and saw this going to penalties. I voted for both teams right the way through to the final based primarily on Iso’s Kaka / Ronaldo partnership and TR’s Hagi set-up, but couldn’t see either being as effective here against such robust defensive opposition. And beyond those just couldn’t quite envisage a compelling enough angle of attack to breach either defence. Congrats to @Isotope.
Yeah nice assessment. Never thought about it in terms of those two parts, but that’s pretty much bang on.
Thanks Gio. Fair enough on the draw.
Could this be the first 4-4-1-1 winning the Draft? Usually manager got praised when using 4-4-1-1. But then it's different when come to vote.
This is the first vote I've ever given to one of these draft things after I saw the thread pop up this morning, so apologies if mysteriously voting without any explanation is frowned upon.
Had to go with Isotope because that spine is world class. In a one off final I could see TheReligion's team nicking a goal and shutting up shop successfully, but if they played ten matches against each other I reckon Isotope wins 7/10 just because of the superior quality where it matters.
Anyway just my random fantasy football musings, fun concept and congrats to both.
Had to go with Isotope because that spine is world class. In a one off final I could see TheReligion's team nicking a goal and shutting up shop successfully, but if they played ten matches against each other I reckon Isotope wins 7/10 just because of the superior quality where it matters.
Anyway just my random fantasy football musings, fun concept and congrats to both.
yeah, well, thats just, like, your, opinion, man.
Any voting is encouraged
This aggression will not stand, man.
That's more post this era with all the focus on high press tracking back, etc. That's the final nail on the coffin for the classic #10, indeed.
This game though? With all that freedom to roam? He would hit his top level.
You imagine BS doing something despite no such instruction being clearly laid out. That's the beauty of not spelling out your instructions, everyone imagines what they see as optimal. Same has been the case for Iso's defensive line throughout.
Also, it's not peak 2012-13 Schweini, or the holding one that had his best tournament performance in 2014. It's the one before him (and Bayern) hit their peak level.
A note for future drafts with specific timeframes: anyone clearly not having their peak during it should be banned. It's a joke really. Most people simply won't separate X player before or after a given date or at least they certainly won't all separate it the same way.