Northern Ireland Thread

TheReligion said:
If the SAS had been given free regin to execute IRA members (considering they knew who the majority were from intelligence from both sides and MI5) it would have been a no contest and surely you must know that?

I don't think you understand that aspect of what you are saying.

Oh and it's not me who would be fighting. I don't have a side.
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No you don't understand. If that had happened then for everyone they killed 3-4 more would have stepped up into their shoes. Again, look at the history books to prove what I am saying is true. This wasn't like the easter rising where the IRA where going to meet you for an open battle. This was Guerilla war and the majority of the operatives would have simply gone to ground once the SAS started knocking doors and killng people.

It's a stupid argument to be having but you don't seem to understand the type of war it was.

TheReligion said:
Surely there is a moral difference in an operative member of the IRA being shot than women and children being blown up who are shopping or am I missing something?
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Did the British Army never shoot and kill a child in cold blood in the recent NI conflict?
 
Formula.

State what 'your' side stand for. Compare it with heinous act from other side. QED, and 'we' are right.
 
I'm from an IRA stronghold in North Belfast (Newlodge). I should support the provos, but I don't. In fact, when they're canvassing at election time, Sinn Fein don't even bother knocking on our door because they know we don't support them in our house. I'd imagine that not supporting the IRA in the Newlodge is akin to not supporting Hamas in Beirut. Or not supporting the actions of the SAS if you'd been in the security forces.

That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that the three volunteers in Gibraltar were murdered. All the facts point to it. Where you can debate is on the issue of state - sponsored murder being justified for the greater good.

Btw, McCann was a neighbour of my grandfather. He lived 200 yards from me.
 
TheReligion said:
Discussing a topic is much more educational when the other persons actually explain their logic and reasoning as opposed to simply going "I can't believe how ignorant and wrong you are you really annoy me".
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You put yourself in that position by your stance. A few days ago we had a poster who tried to argue the IRA defended as opposed to killed. You are doing the same from the other side. It is ignorance, but willfully so, which is almost worse.

It was an armed conflict and right and wrong were to degrees on both sides. It is true that the British soldiers were just doing a job, and it's also true that some of them got paid while contributing to killing hundreds of people in Northern Ireland over 3 decades. Picking the section of truth that suits is ridiculous.

I'm Irish and could argue all day about shocking British activity in Northern Ireland, but I can use words like disgraceful, shocking and inhuman for acts against them too.

We all read your SAS accounts, you'd do well to read some perspectives from the other side.
 
Badunk said:
I'm from an IRA stronghold in North Belfast (Newlodge). I should support the provos, but I don't. In fact, when they're canvassing at election time, Sinn Fein don't even bother knocking on our door because they know we don't support them in our house.
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surprised you havent been burnt out!
 
I am sure that we all have stories that we can tell from both sides. Lets hope our children and grandchildren don't grow up being able to recount similar tales so easily
 
golden_blunder said:
I am sure that we all have stories that we can tell from both sides. Lets hope our children and grandchildren don't grow up being able to recount similar tales so easily
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This this and this.

I moved down South to get away from the place and I don't regret it for one moment. I still love to get up home and more frequently to Belfast, but I'd never want to live there even under the current peace because of the existing bubbling tension that boils over every year.
 
Belfast is weird, lovely city centre, great night out, but the underbelly has sectarianism always on the boil. Its like going into the Glenshane pass, you just know that even if its sunny elsewhere, its always gonna be shitty weather in that pass
 
That's pretty much my views on the big smoke too. I've never once in my life encountered any grief of any nature there and everyone has always been really nice when we visit. I went as far as to have my stag there with a gang of lads from Strabane and Sligo without a single cross word.

It's the fear of it going to shite every time there's a march planned or this flag crap that put me off living there.
 
PJ said:
Did you never do history? There's only ever a British side.
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Not according to the Christian Brothers. It's all hazy now, but I'm sure the Brits took time off eating their young to come over here and dine on ours.
 
History is written by the winner in any conflict

Hitler and the Nazis are (rightfully) identified as an evil murderous regime/force in world history

you never hear much about the British concentration camps in their world conquests and empire building - you can read here about how Britain 'liberated' and 'educated' Africa

http://www.boer.co.za/boerwar/hellkamp.htm

these threads are stupid - they go back and forth and bitterness seeps through
 
buckooo1978 said:
History is written by the winner in any conflict
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That is an increasingly redundant cliche these days. Outside of North Korea anyway.

And the ills of the British Empire are well documented, it's just not on the school curriculum

edit - in fact in certain places the oirish struggle is highly romanticised with the British the bad guys.
 
That old adage is about ancient history moreso, when whole tribal nations were lost in defeat. Or the Vikings, who were not literate until the 11th century, so any account previous to that was written by someone other than them. They are the ultimate symbol for a warlike race and they chose to attack paddies and arabs who are both prone to hysteria, so the vikings, who helped us farm and build trade were painted as violent rapists. Which in fairness, everyone was at the time. As information became easier to share there is less and less truth in the victors writing the history.
 
moses said:
That is an increasingly redundant cliche these days. Outside of North Korea anyway.

And the ills of the British Empire are well documented, it's just not on the school curriculum

edit - in fact in certain places the oirish struggle is highly romanticised with the British the bad guys.
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true but its strange how you never hear any of the 'ills' mentioned in the same context as the Nazis for example - why shouldnt it be part of education?

is it an insecurity in Britishness? Is it the embarrassment? is it ignorance?

I didn't study English or much of British history but isn't it concerned with a lot of stuff about Kings and Queens from hundreds of years ago?
 
Nations will rarely highlight there own atrocities, be it British, Irish, Viking, American or whomever. It's not in their interests to teach their kids that and then expect them to have a level of national pride that helps the country.
 
buckooo1978 said:
true but its strange how you never hear any of the 'ills' mentioned in the same context as the Nazis for example - why shouldnt it be part of education?

is it an insecurity in Britishness? Is it the embarrassment? is it ignorance?

I didn't study English or much of British history but isn't it concerned with a lot of stuff about Kings and Queens from hundreds of years ago?
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Well for a start it was a different time, and what they did in colonial times was being mirrored by all the major european powers, so those in glass houses ...

The whole continent should hang it's head in shame for what went on in around the world, terror on every continent starting with the Crusades right up to WW2.

There is an amazing book called 'Exterminate the Brutes' by a chap called Lindquist and he explores the thinking at the time about colonialism and the most interesting bit is the post Darwin period where the europeans classified non whites (including Irish and Poles) which justified the massacres and when Ethnic cleansing was sold as a positive.


edit - well worth a read

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Exterminate-All-Brutes-Darkness-European/dp/1862075085
 
Irwinwastheking said:
Nations will rarely highlight there own atrocities, be it British, Irish, Viking, American or whomever. It's not in their interests to teach their kids that and then expect them to have a level of national pride that helps the country.
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True, it's just that simple.
 
Slavery and the Black struggle for equality is not dodged in the US though

education should enable people to learn the lessons of the past - glorious and horrid
 
buckooo1978 said:
Slavery and the Black struggle for equality is not dodged in the US though

education should enable people to learn the lessons of the past - glorious and horrid
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I agree about education but maybe they don't actually believe they were wrong, as it was what everyone was doing at the time.
 
buckooo1978 said:
Slavery and the Black struggle for equality is not dodged in the US though

education should enable people to learn the lessons of the past - glorious and horrid
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Ah, but the difference there is that that was inequality and cruelty within a nation that only came to a head after being partly televised. It was not oppression against a foreign people so is much harder to ignore.
 
buckooo1978 said:
I didn't study English or much of British history but isn't it concerned with a lot of stuff about Kings and Queens from hundreds of years ago?
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Much the same as any other European power. Then ideas spread, crowns fell, industry revolutionised the landscape, democracy flourished, travel became cheaper and faster, money grew exponentially, yadda yadda yadda, and here we are.
 
Quite enjoy the debate in here, have to bite my lip so I dont react to some of the opinions but fair play folks..

Bravo...

Please continue
 
Irwinwastheking said:
No you don't understand. If that had happened then for everyone they killed 3-4 more would have stepped up into their shoes. Again, look at the history books to prove what I am saying is true. This wasn't like the easter rising where the IRA where going to meet you for an open battle. This was Guerilla war and the majority of the operatives would have simply gone to ground once the SAS started knocking doors and killng people.

It's a stupid argument to be having but you don't seem to understand the type of war it was.
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I know exactly what kind of conflict it was but I wouldn't class it as a war as the British Forces never really dealt with it as such. This was not like Vietnam by any stretch of the imagination however you want to paint it.

Anyway, you can speculate what would have happened or what should have happened but what has happened is history now.

I am genuinely interested as to what the state of affairs are in NI. I think if the British had their way they would have no involvement in the place and allow an Irish Republic, sadly this would cause a number of issues hence it seems a matter of keeping a balance in the region as opposed to drastic changes from here on in.
 
Randall Flagg said:
Why is it you only ever refer to acts commited by republicans and not the other side?

To express your impartial nature that was a perfect opportunity to refer to Bloody Sunday instead of Omagh or even allude to both.
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The point being discussed were the murders of the Corporals and then those in Gibralter.

If you want to raise other things feel free? I was simply discussing what was mentioned.

Anyway contrary to what you seemingly think, I, like the vast majority over in England, couldn't care less about what goes on in Ireland/NI. Least not to the extent where we pick sides and cheer them on. Obviously I am interested in seeing everything settled whether the outcome be a Irish Republic or if it remains as it is but in general the regions are of no specific interest.

I don't have a "side" but I get the impression everyone has to in your opinion?
 
It's funny that all the Irish who keep saying that we (English) have no clue about the Irish side of things seem to expect us to accept that they are also experts on the British side of things.

I don't agree with the false equivalence being thrown around either.
 
TheReligion said:
Try not to be so condescending and read again.
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You insinuated that I was trying to paint it as Vietnam, when in actual fact I would say that it was nothing at all like Vietnam. Where was I wrong and how was my interpretation of what you said wrong?

Grinner said:
It's funny that all the Irish who keep saying that we (English) have no clue about the Irish side of things seem to expect us to accept that they are also experts on the British side of things.

I don't agree with the false equivalence being thrown around either.
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Are you referring to me?? If that's the case then you're wrong. I far from think that the English have no clue. I think that TR has no clue and I base that on his posts not some generalisation.

Also, you're right about the false equivalence. Over the last 800 years what the British have done has been much much worse.
 
No, you posted something suggesting that I said something that I didn't.

You have an amazing knack of reading a post and interpreting it completely wrongly.
 
So rather than either acknowledge what I say or tell me I'm wrong and show me where, you have a snide comment and feck off. Sounds about right.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
So rather than either acknowledge what I say or tell me I'm wrong and show me where, you have a snide comment and feck off. Sounds about right.
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Sorry it was meant as a joke (hence the crooked bit) :nervous:

You need to chill a bit Irwin, people have opinions and say things you disagree with. That's life. Really not worth getting frustrated about.

Call me a cnut if you like.
 
Grinner said:
It's funny that all the Irish who keep saying that we (English) have no clue about the Irish side of things seem to expect us to accept that they are also experts on the British side of things.

I don't agree with the false equivalence being thrown around either.
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Meh we never invaded, ransacked and divided your country. An entity tends to pay attention to another that tries to harm it wouldn't you agree? Whereas from the British perspective we were just a small part of the empire and barely a second thought so I would argue that the Irish in general are more clued up about the history of British involvement in our country than most British are.

A contemporary example would be the certainty that the average Iraqi or Afghani knows more about US involvement in its country than the average American.
 
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Ramshock said:
Meh we never invaded, ransacked and divided your country. An entity tends to pay attention to another that tries to harm it wouldn't you agree? Whereas from the British prospective we were just a small part of the empire and barely a second thought so I would argue that the Irish in general are more clued up about the history of British involvement in our country than most British are.

A contemporary example would be the certainty that the average Iraqi or Afghani knows more about US involvement in its country than the average American.
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I was referring more to how the British Army operates. I saw a lot of ignorance over the last few pages and a lot of biased speculation.
 
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