Northern Ireland Thread

I think it was reasonable to assume they were armed though. Assuming the first one shot did make some sort of move for his bag the fate of them all was sealed.

The eye-witnesses all pretty much concurred that they were shot while attempting to surrender so the whole 'they were reaching for a detonator' (that they were found not to have) always seemed like a justifying lie to me.

You correctly said earlier that when the SAS got involved they were as good as dead. It was a shoot-to-kill mission and there was absolutely no chance that they were going to capture the three of them. The British government refuse to admit that but it's as obvious as anything.
Whatever the case it is clear that if this could have been an arrest rather than a kill the knock on effects wouldn't have occurred in the way they did and fewer people would have been injured or killed.

Very true. Every attack that happened seemed to serve as the justification for an opposing attack and kept the whole thing going.
 
Where do you stand on those people who were killed by the SAS, TR?

If they could have prevented the terrorist attack, without any killing, (which is most certainly the case) yet still chose to kill them, doesn't that just make it an assassination, and therefore outside of the law?
 
Where do you stand on those people who were killed by the SAS, TR?

If they could have prevented the terrorist attack, without any killing, (which is most certainly the case) yet still chose to kill them, doesn't that just make it an assassination, and therefore outside of the law?

The ECHR, on second appeal, declared the three's "Right to Life" had been infringed but did state the three were engaged in acts of terrorism. I have read various accounts from those present and witnesses, all of which are different so it is impossible to say. We are talking as if the accounts of the SAS soldiers were all disproved which isn't the case from what I have read.

In an ideal world I think they should have been arrested with no blood shed. I do imagine things would have been more difficult for the authorities then though as there was no such thing as the Terrorism Act which gives a large number of preventative powers and legislation which directly targets such issues and activities.

I think the notion that the SAS were given carte blanche authority to go around NI killing people is complete and utter nonsense though and was mere propaganda used to manipulate matters accordingly.
 
It is the impression you give. That's why I asked where you stand, however, you have skirted about the question and still failed to take the opportunity to state your feelings?
Well your impression is wrong.
In doing so you totally dismiss the SAS accounts of what went on.
That bit amused me to be honest. Can you not see why a nationalist from the north of Ireland wouldn't have much faith in the British security forces?
 
The eye-witnesses all pretty much concurred that they were shot while attempting to surrender so the whole 'they were reaching for a detonator' (that they were found not to have) always seemed like a justifying lie to me.

Quite possibly but it is also possible that almost any minor movement would have resulted in what happened as the SAS are trained to take zero risks and dead terrorists are less risky. I'm sure the soldiers in question knew that a detonator and guns were a possibility so their absence isn't really relevant. They had to act as if they were.

If the plan was to kill them or capture/kill them (don't care which) it is where the orders came from that is the issue and while I suspect the attitude was that a dead terrorist is a good terrorist it is also possible that there were operational reasons for leaving it so late. I doubt we will ever really know for sure.

Very true. Every attack that happened seemed to serve as the justification for an opposing attack and kept the whole thing going.

It always does. If we have learned anything from NI it is that killing and violence only ends when it is replaced with some sort of dialogue and that means sworn enemies talking to each other no matter what has been done to and by the various parties involved. Getting into arguments about who is a murderer or a terrorist or whatever tends to get in the way of this as everyone returns to their corner ready for the next round.

Being British but also with very strong ties to the Catholic side of NI, my wife is from NI and has had family members murdered by paramilitaries merely for being Catholic, yet she refuses to consider either sides paramilitaries anything other than murdering scum, has helped me see both sides more than many Brits I think.

In the end it is all fecked up and really needs to stop forever so that in a generation or two it is just a bad memory.
 
The Gibraltar bombers were about to murder innocent people with no intention of giving them a chance to get clear, so to moan about them not being given a chance to surrender is a bit much. Eyewitness testimony is also often flawed and not very reliable so I prefer to trust the professionals in this instance.

Moaning about how many rounds were fired is also silly since SAS training and methods calls for overwhelming deadly force and shooting to kill...not wound. You make sure the target is dead and not getting up to shoot back or detonate a bomb.
 
Well your impression is wrong.

That bit amused me to be honest. Can you not see why a nationalist from the north of Ireland wouldn't have much faith in the British security forces?

You will saying that the RUC was biased against Catholics next? ;)
 
The Gibraltar bombers were about to murder innocent people with no intention of giving them a chance to get clear, so to moan about them not being given a chance to surrender is a bit much. Eyewitness testimony is also often flawed and not very reliable so I prefer to trust the professionals in this instance.

Moaning about how many rounds were fired is also silly since SAS training and methods calls for overwhelming deadly force and shooting to kill...not wound. You make sure the target is dead and not getting up to shoot back or detonate a bomb.

I agree with much of that but a just democracy shouldn't kill anyone unnecessarily no matter how little sympathy we may have for those killed. Subsequent events show that it would have been much better for all concerned if these 3 had been arrested rather than killed if that was possible.

I'm also wondering if they left it until Gibraltar so that other governments couldn't either screw it up (Spain supposedly spooked other members of the cell/group) or not give them the prison time they deserved due to a lack of evidence of the actual attack?
 
The SAS made a call on the ground based on information that was available to them and the way events unfolded. I believe them over some tourist who saw a snippet of a special op going down.
 
The ECHR, on second appeal, declared the three's "Right to Life" had been infringed but did state the three were engaged in acts of terrorism. I have read various accounts from those present and witnesses, all of which are different so it is impossible to say. We are talking as if the accounts of the SAS soldiers were all disproved which isn't the case from what I have read.

In an ideal world I think they should have been arrested with no blood shed. I do imagine things would have been more difficult for the authorities then though as there was no such thing as the Terrorism Act which gives a large number of preventative powers and legislation which directly targets such issues and activities.

I think the notion that the SAS were given carte blanche authority to go around NI killing people is complete and utter nonsense though and was mere propaganda used to manipulate matters accordingly.


That's a fair answer. As for the last paragraph, well there is plenty of evidence of collusion and state murder (I think that is the correct term) and as a result the British Army as a whole have all been tarred with the same brush. I think you have look at those things individually, though.

There were elements of the occupying forces who were simply on the side of the the loyalists and aided them in many ways, with many murders, so it's hard for the people who lived through that to see those people as anything but the enemy. You're a peacekeeper who acts inside the law, I'm sure it's hard for you to accept that members of your armed forces have committed atrocities, many of which have yet to be admitted to, simply because you're a law abiding man yourself. I can understand where you're coming from.

However, I'd like to state that of course the people I'm talking about were a very small minority in an otherwise normal bunch of soldiers carrying out their duties, and I personally don't appreciate them all being tarred with the same brush.

What you have to remember is, that when the army were deployed to the the north originally, they were welcomed with open arms by the majority of nationalist community. They were seen by many as protectors and lot of people treated them with respect. It was only when some of those joined forces with the loyalists, that they were viewed as the enemy and not to be trusted. It then went beyond that and they became targets, themselves.

Many innocent nationalists were killed by the army and vice versa and all of them terrible tragedies. So, if you don't mind me saying so, it might help if you could try and be a little more objective when discussing this subject and try to understand why people over here are never willing to accept the word of the British authorities when it comes to things like this.

Most people on here will admit that the IRA was responsible for some horrible atrocities but some will also maintain that there was a need for the IRA, lest many more Catholics/nationalist would/could have been wiped out, without their presence.

Thankfully all that seems to be a thing of the past though and I'm glad that most people i know want nothing more than peace and to live together in relative harmony.
 
The SAS made a call on the ground based on information that was available to them and the way events unfolded. I believe them over some tourist who saw a snippet of a special op going down.

I don't disagree.

The combination of them not being detained earlier and the ruthlessness f the take-down have combined to possibly (probably to others) suggest something that the operation may not have been. Maybe. With operations such as this there are always going to be uncertainty due to the nature of security work.
 
The SAS made a call on the ground based on information that was available to them and the way events unfolded. I believe them over some tourist who saw a snippet of a special op going down.

I would disagree with that.

I don't think they made a call on the ground at all, nor do I think the way things unfolded affected the outcome. In my opinion they were sent in there to kill them and capturing them or apprehending them was never a possibility.
 
I think the SAS action at the end is less of an issue than why they let it get to that late stage. And if the car bomb had been around the corner and they had had guns and even a detonator it would have looked like a perfect operation. And messy is probably the norm in such things.
 
I would disagree with that.

I don't think they made a call on the ground at all, nor do I think the way things unfolded affected the outcome. In my opinion they were sent in there to kill them and capturing them or apprehending them was never a possibility.

Well you have no idea how they plan, train and execute such operations. We'd probably rather have taken them alive for the int gathering so to say they were on a shoot-to-kill mission is a little silly.
 
I would disagree with that.

I don't think they made a call on the ground at all, nor do I think the way things unfolded affected the outcome. In my opinion they were sent in there to kill them and capturing them or apprehending them was never a possibility.

My suspicion is that their orders were that dead or alive didn't matter that much but take zero risks, which of course made the outcome far more likely than capture. But we will probably never know for sure.
 
That's a fair answer. As for the last paragraph, well there is plenty of evidence of collusion and state murder (I think that is the correct term) and as a result the British Army as a whole have all been tarred with the same brush. I think you have look at those things individually, though.

There were elements of the occupying forces who were simply on the side of the the loyalists and aided them in many ways, with many murders, so it's hard for the people who lived through that to see those people as anything but the enemy. You're a peacekeeper who acts inside the law, I'm sure it's hard for you to accept that members of your armed forces have committed atrocities, many of which have yet to be admitted to, simply because you're a law abiding man yourself. I can understand where you're coming from.

However, I'd like to state that of course the people I'm talking about were a very small minority in an otherwise normal bunch of soldiers carrying out their duties, and I personally don't appreciate them all being tarred with the same brush.

What you have to remember is, that when the army were deployed to the the north originally, they were welcomed with open arms by the majority of nationalist community. They were seen by many as protectors and lot of people treated them with respect. It was only when some of those joined forces with the loyalists, that they were viewed as the enemy and not to be trusted. It then went beyond that and they became targets, themselves.

Many innocent nationalists were killed by the army and vice versa and all of them terrible tragedies. So, if you don't mind me saying so, it might help if you could try and be a little more objective when discussing this subject and try to understand why people over here are never willing to accept the word of the British authorities when it comes to things like this.

Most people on here will admit that the IRA was responsible for some horrible atrocities but some will also maintain that there was a need for the IRA, lest many more Catholics/nationalist would/could have been wiped out, without their presence.

Thankfully all that seems to be a thing of the past though and I'm glad that most people i know want nothing more than peace and to live together in relative harmony.

They are all good points and I will never understand the intensity of it all having not lived it personally, however, I do feel when you are overly emotionally attached to a topic it does cloud your opinions as such.

If the SAS were given free regin to take out the IRA things would have been alot different. You were pitting a professional elite fighting force against total amateurs. If this so called order to murder carte blanche had been given the IRA would have been totally obliterated very quickly.

I don't doubt there was corruption but it's this paranoia that everyone from Britain was the same which I find truly deluded as its prevalent in some even today.

I personally can never level with a cowardly terrorist organisation that killed innocent men, women and children. It goes against everything I stand for.
 
They are all good points and I will never understand the intensity of it all having not lived it personally, however, I do feel when you are overly emotionally attached to a topic it does cloud your opinions as such.

If the SAS were given free regin to take out the IRA things would have been alot different. You were pitting a professional elite fighting force against total amateurs. If this so called order to murder carte blanche had been given the IRA would have been totally obliterated very quickly.

I don't doubt there was corruption but it's this paranoia that everyone from Britain was the same which I find truly deluded as its prevalent in some even today.

I personally can never level with a cowardly terrorist organisation that killed innocent men, women and children. It goes against everything I stand for.


Well, I don't want to be seen to be romanticizing them in any way, but they might have been a bit better trained than you think, there is a reason they lasted for so long. But that is irrelevant and not worth discussing and I don't want to promote that angle of the debate.

As for the bolded part, yeah I can understand that, no question but you must understand even the most staunch nationalists didn't support the killing of innocents either. The people responsible will claim collateral damage, with the end justifying the means (in their minds) much like people who support lawful war. (if there is such a thing)

You could level those accusations against any army in the world whether they are a terrorist army or a government sponsored one. As in any army, the rank and file follow orders, go where they're sent and sometimes carry out the killing of innocent people. That is the very nature of conflict. There are always two sides with agendas and innocent people get caught in the middle.

EDIT: I hope that doesn't read like I'm justifying any acts of violence, I'm doing the opposite, I'm say that all murder is wrong and like Wibble said, violence only leads to more violence.
 
Well, I don't want to be seen to be romanticizing them in any way, but they might have been a bit better trained than you think, there is a reason they lasted for so long. But that is irrelevant and not worth discussing and I don't want to promote that angle of the debate.

As for the bolded part, yeah I can understand that, no question but you must understand even the most staunch nationalists didn't support the killing of innocents either. The people responsible will claim collateral damage, with the end justifying the means (in their minds) much like people who support lawful war. (if there is such a thing)

You could level those accusations against any army in the world whether they are a terrorist army or a government sponsored one. As in any army, the rank and file follow orders, go where they're sent and carry out the killing of innocent people. That is the very nature of conflict. There are always two sides with agendas and innocent people get caught in the middle.

EDIT: I hope that doesn't read like I'm justifying any acts of violence, I'm doing the opposite, I'm say that all murder is wrong and like Wibble said, violence only leads to more violence.

Is correct and sums it up perfectly. The British Army can go feck themselves, any terrorist/paramilitary organisation can go feck themselves.
 
They are all good points and I will never understand the intensity of it all having not lived it personally, however, I do feel when you are overly emotionally attached to a topic it does cloud your opinions as such.

If the SAS were given free regin to take out the IRA things would have been alot different. You were pitting a professional elite fighting force against total amateurs. If this so called order to murder carte blanche had been given the IRA would have been totally obliterated very quickly.

I don't doubt there was corruption but it's this paranoia that everyone from Britain was the same which I find truly deluded as its prevalent in some even today.


I personally can never level with a cowardly terrorist organisation that killed innocent men, women and children. It goes against everything I stand for.

Two points which prove that you don't have a clue what you're talking about when it comes to NI.
 
He gets my goat up a little in Irish threads. If I was completely ignorant on a subject I simply would avoid making sweeping statements about it. Especially one as sensitive as this.
 
I find it very hard to believe that any British soldier (regardless of their rank) stationed in Northern Ireland and particularly Belfast in 1988 could somehow take a wrong turn onto the Andersonstown Road.

They must have been the two unluckiest blokes on the planet if that is the truth.
 
Discussing a topic is much more educational when the other persons actually explain their logic and reasoning as opposed to simply going "I can't believe how ignorant and wrong you are you really annoy me".
 
Well, I don't want to be seen to be romanticizing them in any way, but they might have been a bit better trained than you think, there is a reason they lasted for so long. But that is irrelevant and not worth discussing and I don't want to promote that angle of the debate.

As for the bolded part, yeah I can understand that, no question but you must understand even the most staunch nationalists didn't support the killing of innocents either. The people responsible will claim collateral damage, with the end justifying the means (in their minds) much like people who support lawful war. (if there is such a thing)

You could level those accusations against any army in the world whether they are a terrorist army or a government sponsored one. As in any army, the rank and file follow orders, go where they're sent and sometimes carry out the killing of innocent people. That is the very nature of conflict. There are always two sides with agendas and innocent people get caught in the middle.

EDIT: I hope that doesn't read like I'm justifying any acts of violence, I'm doing the opposite, I'm say that all murder is wrong and like Wibble said, violence only leads to more violence.

No I understand where you are coming from to a degree.

I think there is alot more chance innocent people will die though if you choose to hide bombs in busy town centres. Thats not collateral, that really is murder.
 
In doing so you totally dismiss the SAS accounts of what went on.

Because of course they wouldnt dare lie to save their backs would they?

If you were around at the time you sound like the kind of person who would have believed the Widgery Tribunal word for word as well.
 
Because of course they wouldnt dare lie to save their backs would they?

If you were around at the time you sound like the kind of person who would have believed the Widgery Tribunal word for word as well.

So they are wrong based on the assumption they were trying to save their own backs and they were British.

Not really anything there that compels me to say you're correct.
 
Discussing a topic is much more educational when the other persons actually explain their logic and reasoning as opposed to simply going "I can't believe how ignorant and wrong you are you really annoy me".

OK then. Let me explain. You made two sweeping statements that anyone with any modicum of intelligence or knowledge of the history of Ireland over the last 100 years would know to be completely untrue.

If the SAS were given free regin to take out the IRA things would have been alot different. You were pitting a professional elite fighting force against total amateurs. If this so called order to murder carte blanche had been given the IRA would have been totally obliterated very quickly.

Firstly, if you look at the two occasions that the British Forces where given Carte Blanche against the Irish you have the Black and Tans and the Bloody Sunday Massacre. On both occasions all they did was strengthen both versions of the IRA ten fold, and increase support for them exponentially among the civilian population. The IRA wouldn't have been obliterated, it would have doubled or tripled in numbers. No doubt in open warfare the British Army were the superior operation with many hundreds of years practice at putting down local tribal uprisings but you seem to be underestimating the then sophistication of the IRA's tactics and numbers. Total shoot to kill from the SAS and open street warfare would have created an even bigger monster that you'd still be fighting today.

I don't doubt there was corruption but it's this paranoia that everyone from Britain was the same which I find truly deluded as its prevalent in some even today.

Who anywhere anytime ever said that "everyone in Britain was the same"? It's a nonsense statement to be getting uppedy about because it's not something that's been weighted at you. The Irish aren't like Al-Qaeda, we didn't wage war on the infidels.
 
No I understand where you are coming from to a degree.

I think there is alot more chance innocent people will die though if you choose to hide bombs in busy town centres. Thats not collateral, that really is murder.

And we're back to 'my murderer v your murderer'.
 
So they are wrong based on the assumption they were trying to save their own backs and they were British.

Not really anything there that compels me to say you're correct.

I dont expect you to say I am correct. You have your opinion and are well entitled to it.

I never said anything about them being British at all. Seems that is your paranoia kicking in.

The impression you give off is that "The SAS said this is the way it went down, so thats the end of it"

The Widgery Tribunal made the same mistake with the Parachute Regiment on Bloody Sunday. Thats my point.
 
Firstly, if you look at the two occasions that the British Forces where given Carte Blanche against the Irish you have the Black and Tans and the Bloody Sunday Massacre. On both occasions all they did was strengthen both versions of the IRA ten fold, and increase support for them exponentially among the civilian population. The IRA wouldn't have been obliterated, it would have doubled or tripled in numbers. No doubt in open warfare the British Army were the superior operation with many hundreds of years practice at putting down local tribal uprisings but you seem to be underestimating the then sophistication of the IRA's tactics and numbers. Total shoot to kill from the SAS and open street warfare would have created an even bigger monster that you'd still be fighting today.

If the SAS had been given free regin to execute IRA members (considering they knew who the majority were from intelligence from both sides and MI5) it would have been a no contest and surely you must know that?

I don't think you understand that aspect of what you are saying.

Oh and it's not me who would be fighting. I don't have a side.
 
Both sides killed each other brutally and also murdered civilians. And both sides try to legitimise it.
 
Surely there is a moral difference in an operative member of the IRA being shot than women and children being blown up who are shopping or am I missing something?

Why is it you only ever refer to acts commited by republicans and not the other side?

To express your impartial nature that was a perfect opportunity to refer to Bloody Sunday instead of Omagh or even allude to both.