Nordic Ghost Yeti (Scandi Carroll) | Haaland at City
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What does anyone remember anyone for? Its not the stats. Those are recent. You remember moments, the sum of the body of work and key events, thats about it.
Ronaldo will be remembered for being a public figure and the ballon dors, winning the European championships, his relationship with Sir Alex, being a Real Madrid legend, that ridiculous header for Juventus. For the stat people, like me, Ill remember the scoring numbers compared to Messi during their prime years, but a fan who just watches to enjoy himself doesnt care about that.
Maradona is remembered by most for the hand of god above all else, and that one goal against England. A singular moment in a remarkable career.
Fact is that when enough time passes, details are forgotten, and you are just left with the key pieces of defining events. Pele and his world cups, and for being the "best player in the world". That was synonymus with his name when I was growing up. Not Maradona, that became a thing later.
The characteristics of how players are remembered is going to change going forward, with the availability of readily logged HD video spanning decades and the enormous presence on social media. The best players have become brands as much as they are gifted footballers. Its not unlikely that in the future we will assosicate the GOATs with their brand and not just their on pitch performance.
Ronaldo will be remembered for being a public figure and the ballon dors, winning the European championships, his relationship with Sir Alex, being a Real Madrid legend, that ridiculous header for Juventus. For the stat people, like me, Ill remember the scoring numbers compared to Messi during their prime years, but a fan who just watches to enjoy himself doesnt care about that.
Maradona is remembered by most for the hand of god above all else, and that one goal against England. A singular moment in a remarkable career.
Fact is that when enough time passes, details are forgotten, and you are just left with the key pieces of defining events. Pele and his world cups, and for being the "best player in the world". That was synonymus with his name when I was growing up. Not Maradona, that became a thing later.
The characteristics of how players are remembered is going to change going forward, with the availability of readily logged HD video spanning decades and the enormous presence on social media. The best players have become brands as much as they are gifted footballers. Its not unlikely that in the future we will assosicate the GOATs with their brand and not just their on pitch performance.
Indeed
IIRC Beckham was huge in Asia, probably the first ever western footballer who got big clout in the asian continent, definitely bigger than the likes of R9, Zidane, Ronaldinho, and Roberto Carlos.
I remember an old interview with Fernando Redondo, who mentioned that when he traveled to Japan in the early 2000s, japanese people didn't know him at all, but he sure saw a lot of England/United shirts with the Beckham name.
Most people who watch football?
If you take out 30-40% of Messi's goals even if the ones scored in meaningless league games, there's no chance he will remembered on par with let alone better than Cristiano. He had the same crazy skills when Ronaldo won the Ballon D'or in 08, and was widely considered the best player in the world and the headline was "he scored 42 goals in a double winning season". Period. Once Messi started scoring at an insane rate, the tide turned in his favour. And it's what has driven all the awards since as these two just kept scoring at a mental rate.
Those aren't popular polls though?
In my OP i said polls mainly voted by sports journalists and the like.
Well he was among the best in the world.
Beckham was the first true viral superstar in the modern age. His transfer to La Galaxy pretty much introduced Europe to the fact that MLS was a thing.
The 2002 film Bend it like Beckham was pretty popular when it released as well: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0286499/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
His name is synonymus with crossing the ball, his right foot is legendary in popular culture.
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I dont think most people care about those polls or about polls in general.
Among yeah. So was his team mates when he played for United.
What?
Are you saying most football fans don't idolise a small set of players? That's crazy.I agree about the modern superstar part, but legends like Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer and our own George Best played in the old MLS so if your a fan from before the 90's you knew that MLS was a thing, can't deny that Beckham put it on the map again and started a more modern trend again.
and I agree online polls means nothing about best player ever, not only can they be wrong because of bots but like other said recent bias dominate and its mostly young people that only seen Ronaldo and Messi that actually vote.
Capello said during World Cup before Argentina won that top 3 is equal between Maradona, Pele and Messi, then he had Ronaldo9 just a tiny bit behind and then came the others like C. Ronaldo, Cruyff, Zidane etc.
The thing is that it's very hard to compare players from different eras. The players are so much better trained and the sport is so much more competitve in todays football compared to 50+ years ago. Here's the results from the Brazilian WC-winning 1970 team taking a "Cooper test" (run as far as you can on a flat track in 12 minutes) of their players:
https://www.bigsoccer.com/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fli5SWeL.png&hash=b98da05bc970d6d392747cdcbd1e2a3d
Which would be good for a 40+ year old running a couple of times a week today, but would be absolutely shocking for a professional athlete.
Even in the mid 80's Maradona got away with being in horrible physical shape (he ran 2550m in a cooper test in 1986), which there is no chance he'd get away with today.
It's a totally different sport nowadays. The players are faster, stronger, better tactically and has better stamina than they did in earlier eras and the tempo of the game is so much higher.
Hence why comparing players from different eras is a bit meaningless. Todays footballers are objectively much better than the players of the past, but maybe not compared to the competition the players from the past faced in their time. Football has developed a lot the last couple of generations. That 1970 Brazil team would probably get hammered by Burnley anno 2023.
Modern players are in better shape physically, that's about it.
To me a better player it's a more talented player, who uses his individual and natural talent/skill to be effective and make the difference in a game
I don't think Virgil Van Djik is better than Gaetano Scirea (best 80s defender) just because he trains with modern machines and has more stamina(as a consequence of legal PEDs and modern medicine), for the solely reason that if Gaetano was playing in this era he would eat and train with the same machines as VVD, and he was more naturally talented/skillful than VVD.
Maradona and Messi are the best example, Maradona in modern times would literally be Messi, both equally talented, but the later helped with modern medicine and modern nutrition had a longer career.
Sorry, but i like Football, and i will never value having more stamina and more work rate as "better player".
The talent pool is far greater now. The money in the game is insane, so average players you have never heard about can be rich from their profession. Superstars like Pelé and Best didnt need money, but when when Denis Law joined City he did actually need the money. Hence why your average player from the 60's or 70's will be most likely be worse than your average footballer in a higher ranked league now. There is a less of a risk of talented athletes not going for it because there is a greater chance of making a living.
Good thing people base their opinion on actual evidence and not a "would be" scenario. Maradona never displayed the consistency of Messi. Messi also didnt end up wasting a duration of his career doing drugs and destroying his fitness. Talent alone doesn't you great, bringing it to the table day in day out does.
10% talent
90% dedication, diciplin and training
'ish
Maradona didn't have the dicipline to stay at the top, despite being a true magician with the ball.
I don't think there's a single coach in the world that would take 1984 Scirea over 2020 VVD.
I love the game as well, every part of it.
I'm 47, have played football my entire life, and still play actively in the lower division system. It's a long time since I got what I ordered on the football pitch, but I still love being part of football. Even in the lower levels the players are better than when I grew up. Players are not only better physically, they are also better technically and tactically. The sport develops and we have so many tools to develop players both technically, tactically and physically that we didn't have back in the 70', 80' and 90'.
We don't have greater talents now, we just have a lot better tools to develop players from early on and all the way through their careers.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-65110240
Caught using his phone whilst driving his 300k Rolls Royce.
Throw away the key.
Caught using his phone whilst driving his 300k Rolls Royce.
Throw away the key.
chuck him with the nonces.
Players are more athletic now but football is not just about athleticism. There isn't a single player today that is as skilful as Maradona was. Well maybe one. So the players are not in fact 'better'. Just more athletic. I look around and I see precious few people with the ability of a Diego or a Zico.
The Cullinan is an ugly Rolls.
If you take out 30-40% of Messi's Goals he would still be the better player but of course stats sadly seem to play an ever more important role in these discussions.
Thats the point. For me Messi was the best player I watched very early in his career but you need a concrete CV and stats play a huge role. And in Haalands case who is obviously not an all round player like Messi he needs to absolutely sky rocket these stats and tilt the whole argument in a different direction which supercedes his shortcomings. I personally feel it will be great to have a statistically anomaly taking things even further than the big two did. Just think of putting a 5 year turbocharged goal rush and break the game. Do it Erling!
Still, even if Haaland scores a lot he still have the likes of Mbappe and Kvaratskhelia around, if these 2 move to other leagues when they can be more noticed than in Serie A and Ligue 1, Haaland will have a lot of competition.
Cause even post 2015 Ronaldo is a much better all around player than Haaland is now.
Yeah which is why he needs to have a higher disparity in their end product. Plus things like taking City to CL wins which also produces Ballon Dors. The idea is not try to beat Mbappe in his game but to play his own game.
Imagine being sad that more information is used to gauge the quality of a player, and discussions are no longer based on how many games (not many) you managed to see someone play.
I think stats while obviously an Important factor isn't the be all end all. How many people have heard of Josef Bican? Scorer of the most goals ever until being overtaken very recently by Ronaldo. In half the games Ronaldo has played just to give an example of how prolific he actually was. So I think Haaland can go as turbo as he wants but in 50 years people are still going to be talking about Pele, Maradona and Messi as all time greats with even Ronaldo getting pushed by the wayside.
Kvaratskhelia has been good for 10 minutes, lets wait a while before we decide that he is on that level.
You are literally talking about Bican right now despite as per nerdy historians there were more talented players in that era. Let's not be mistaken that scoring 1000 goals in Saudi league is gonna make anyone a GOAT candidate but Haaland is currently playing in the PL for one of the biggest clubs in the world, which is the most marketed league in the world, for the club that always gets the best odds to win it. Thats his headstart and can easily lead to Ballon D'or as soon as you top that up with absurd goalscoring feats this league hasnt seen in the past and of course strong CL seasons - and CL is a competition he has destroyed since he's been a kid. His competition is playing in a league no one gives a crap about, wont have the NT comps every year to boost his standing which pretty much leaves CL. Those things are pretty much what their standing comes down to, after that peeps can be stood here arguing about who gets better weight on their passes or whatever the feck, that doesnt translate into awards, marketing, etc. I mean just go back a couple of years when Liverpool were strong both in CL and PL and suddenly Salah got boosted up in popular ratings, Haaland can be another level compared to him when it comes to beating teams and scoring at will. That's all he really needs to focus on.
His tekkers though...
But at the same time, Kocsis isn't rated anywhere near as high as Puskás even though their numbers are very much comparable - he was every bit as good a goalscorer as Puskás. He just wasn't that good at everything else and consequently he really is someone that only hipsters and football professors remember.
(I'm neither, I'm just Hungarian and they have a cult status here)
How's he gonna cope with that £200 fine?
"Double winning season" was an important part of that headline though. Players from teams that win nothing almost never win the Ballon d'Or and that 2007/08 Barcelona was a mess, finishing behind Villarreal in the league. Even if Messi had had a crazy season - which he didn't -, he'd have stood no chance.
A year later he only scored two goals more than Samuel Eto'o (and Eto'o actually outscored him in La Liga). Yet Messi won the award in a landslide and Eto'o finished fifth, behind Xavi and Iniesta. Clearly, it wasn't just about goals.
I thought it was pretty obvious given we are talking about Haaland that winning the biggest trophies like PL and CL will have to be a part of the equation. I shouldn't be needing to spell everything.
So... People who know football then?
Because I don't think the standard should be what the average idiot on the street would reference. Imagine applying that standard in other forms of artistic expression. "Yeah Ed Sheeran... One of the best to ever do it" says Lily, 32 from Leeds
I'm saying that using the 2008 Ballon d'Or as an example was a poor choice when talking about the importance of goals as a decisive factor in individual recognition because the player who scored fewer goals also won sweet feck all so obviously, he was never going to win the award.
Surely when it comes to a player's legacy, name recognition is a part of it? Music is quite subjective but in football, there's a pretty strong correlation between recognition and quality. There are underrated, forgotten players, sure, but the players who are usually talked about as the best in history were, by any measure, absolutely wonderful footballers and their fame is well-deserved.
But anyway, people who know football don't rate Kocsis on the same level as Puskás either, despite the crazy number of goals.
I don't know how active you were back then but anyone who watched that season regularly can pretty easily remember just how highly talked about the 42 goal figure was. Heck there was even a massive media orgasm when he beat Best's league goal tally for a season. Pretty much the entire media took that goal tally and made that a huge driver for him being the unanimous choice as the best player in the world, when he had other attackers in the same double winning team like Rooney who were outstanding and the entire United team was great back to front. If you take that tally down by say 10 goals removing random goals he scored in 4-0 wins in CL group stages or whatever, while his entire performances remaining the exact same otherwise there'd be a far closer race between him and his teammates at the very least, but once that goal tally went beyond the threshold the discussion was over. And that's the trend both him and Messi adopted for the coming decade, making goalscoring a fecking joke and become untouchable.
Quality as gauged by the average person which may be skewed based on a few aesthetic factors incidental to their actual quality. For example, looks around nervously, the Messi v Ronaldo debate was never as close as the public debate would have you believe. It's not that strong which is when I would expect a few quality names to fall through the cracks. Another example: Godin v Ramos