No Ronaldo, no Maguire, no Coincidence

pogbasformerbarber said:
This…I’m not going into the “Ronaldo sucks” mindset until we have a much larger sample size. Do people forget he was practically the only player trying last season?
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Yes he tried but there are problems with him. He isn't dynamic enough, he doesn't press (has hardly ever), his "me,me,me" attitude means the players around simply just have to look for him thus making the team very predictable etc.

Having said that, I hope he realised yesterday that the team is much more than just him (like he thinks) so he sorts out his attitude and next time he plays as a part of the team not an individual player looking down at his teammates.
 
dan1509 said:
I don't get these digs at Ronaldo. He didnt play the first match and we got smashed, then in the second game he played and we got smashed again (not sure how you can fault him for us conceding 4 to Brentford). Its just such a lazy narrative when you consider there were numerous changes made to the side today (maguire, shaw, no McFred combo).
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Probably because the attack look instantly better when martial relently press, elanga mives about and bruno don't always have to pass to the statue called Ronaldo? No?!

Just me then.
 
Its a long season, we will need Ronaldo, Maguire, Shaw, Fred.
But the early indications are that ETH is quite flexible tactically and that bodes well for the long and grueling premier league season.
With so many tough opponents in the league this season rigid tactics/players will not work.
He has various options at his disposal and if he can get a few more signings in before the window closes we should be highly competitive.
Ronaldo will score goals for ETH and that is crucial when we are may be not playing our best in games and that will happen somewhere down the line.
Rest would be useful as a squad option. But importantly it looks like we have a proper Manutd coach now who can improve players and make them play at a higher level regardless of their talent. So I wouldn't rule the lot out just yet.
 
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It was a great defensive performance by all 5, with De Gea even coming out of his box to clear. Its only one game, but without Maguire and Shaw, it was so solid.
Casemiro will be a big help to the defence as well. When we have signed Antony and Gapko and maybe Dejong as well, you will see a different Utd as it will be a team of hard workers full of running, able to keep possession high up the pitch. I wouldnt be surprised to still see Ronaldo going before Sept.
 
padzilla said:
Maguire needs to play in a back three to look the part - we don't want to play that way so it seems inevitable he will be playing less and less.
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Maybe the Chelsea talk is not as absurd as it sounds.
 
Pexbo said:
No - Coincidence doesn’t play for us so save yourself a joke.

I really do think there’s a lot to be taken from that match and the biggest lesson is in the title. We had a proactive defence, communicating well, quick to press, quick in a tackle, quick to react in the box.

Up front the movement was good, pressuring was much better (still can be improved) and there was unpredictability in their play. None of this float the ball to Ronaldo business or get it to his feet at all costs. Three players who were stretching the defence wide, getting in behind and linking up well.

It’s worked, we’re going to get a good measure of ten Hag’s stones when we see if he continues with it.
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I don't think yesterday's performance was about one or two individuals, it was about attitude, commitment and energy from the entire team.

Personally, I thought both CBs were brilliant and I thought Rashford had his best game for as long as I can remember...but that comes from the entire team pulling together in the same direction, playing with intensity, pace, energy and commitment.

The key now is that we need to take that into every single game, regardless of who is selected in the XI. It can't be the case that they do that in big games at OT when the opponents have 70% of the ball, they also need to make sure they play with that intensity when we go to Southampton on Saturday lunchtime and every game thereafter.

It's amazing how playing as a unit transforms players who look barely capable of playing in the Premier League into really good players. Conversely, look at Liverpool....the lad who's been the best CB in the league for the last four seasons looked a shadow without the press, energy and intensity ahead of him.
 
Kinky Melinky said:
I wouldn't hold your breath mate. Maguire was shown how to defend tonight as he looked on. I just don't think he's good enough. Are you sure you're not just saying this because you want it badly to be true? Look to the evidence.
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Theres question marks but Martinez is quality its obvious, I just think Maguire can do what Varane did, I wouldn’t write him off just yet thats all.
 
RoyH1 said:
Maybe the Chelsea talk is not as absurd as it sounds.
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If he’s not going to play, better to get his wage off the books and bring in a younger model with potential, even if it means a big hit on his transfer fee.
 
Rightnr said:
No Ole signings, no problem.

Varane doesn't count.
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What about Bruno and Sancho? Do they count?

Anyway! The back 4 looked great, the midfield clicked better and the front 3 looked dangerous.
It's not possible to play with that intensity or press like we did the first 20 minutes with Ronaldo on the pitch. Even when he came on the last 10 minutes he looked like he was conserving energy.
I loved to see the intensity, urgency and passion Martinez and Malacia played with. The leadership Varane and Bruno showed. Martial looked great when he came on, great half from him.

Maguire and Ronaldo must step up their game if they want to start a game again this season.
 
If Ronaldo doesn't play, it's possible to play on the counterattack - considering the speed up front. Ronaldo does not fit into that style (anymore), so with Ronaldo you'd have to build the approach around him. That's also why the pre-season games were pretty good (without Ronaldo), and the games under Ole before Ronaldo joined seemed to click better. The most obvious one is that Bruno isn't a shadow of himself when Ronaldo plays...

As for Maguire: he just isn't that good. Maybe with 3 (or 5) in defense, but still: he's no world beater.
 
Amadaeus said:
People are acting like we won against prime Liverpool. The mighty Henderson, Milner and Elliot in midfield with a false 9 in firmino will scare most team to be honest.

I will wait to see how this team does against a team that isn't low in morale, doesn't have many injuries and are tough opponents before blowing my horn. The team dynamic today was ok, and I don't want to sound to negative, but I still seen better football played by Brighton this season. This result seemed like the type of performance we put in when we came in 2nd under Ole, which isn't really a bad thing.
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For once I have to agree with you to some degree.

Whilst their first 11 wasn't weakened severely, they didn't have many options off the bench to change the tide of the game.

However, United players played with an intensity not seen for a very long time, the first goal was actually beautiful football as well.
Too early to say we have turned a corner, but it will do as a start.

As for the op, I think it was more to do with workrate and team dynamic than individuals being dropped, also it's interesting to see Varane play like that, especially now he has his mate in Casemiro at the club, will be good to see them too link up moving forward.
 
RoyH1 said:
Maybe the Chelsea talk is not as absurd as it sounds.
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I'd be very surprised if you let Bailly and Maguire leave and Bailly looks nailed to going to france.

You'd only have Lindelof and Jones as back up and as others have said with the intensity ETH wants you to play at you need a deeper squad than that. Is Tuanzebe still around?
 
So, do people think Maguire and Ronaldo will be benched next match as well?

Very unfair to Varane and Martinez if Maguire starts now.
It’s also obvious that Ronaldo can’t press with intensity, or at least don’t want to.

Some big decisions for Ballsy (ETH).
 
Cantonaaa! said:
So, do people think Maguire and Ronaldo will be benched next match as well?

Very unfair to Varane and Martinez if Maguire starts now.
It’s also obvious that Ronaldo can’t press with intensity, or at least don’t want to.

Some big decisions for Ballsy (ETH).
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Not really a big decision. I think ETH has been quite straightforward with what he wants from the team, inclusive of Ronaldo and Maguire. Regarding Ronaldo, ETH has stated in a few interviews that Ronaldo has to fit into the pressing approach and style of play he is looking at, so Ronaldo has to prove that he can do this if he wants to start in games.

As for Maguire, he will certainly play in games where he has more protection from the midfield. It would be opponent dependent if you ask me.
 
mshnsh said:
Yes he tried but there are problems with him. He isn't dynamic enough, he doesn't press (has hardly ever), his "me,me,me" attitude means the players around simply just have to look for him thus making the team very predictable etc.

Having said that, I hope he realised yesterday that the team is much more than just him (like he thinks) so he sorts out his attitude and next time he plays as a part of the team not an individual player looking down at his teammates.
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Star players always want the ball come to them. This has always been the case in history for all, inclusive of Messi. As for Ronaldo, I don't find it a big problem as he is playing as a CF and CFs do need the ball to come to them, otherwise they won't be able to score.

The bigger problem with Ronaldo is that he can lose his head when things don't go well, which is what happened with Brentford. He has shown that he can press and defend (e.g. 2-1 win against Villareal at Old Trafford) when he is really in the mood. It also did not help that Rashford's style of play conflicts with Ronaldo, as Rashford acts more as a striker than a winger. If Ronaldo can be motivated (maybe with Casemiro in the side it will be different), we will see the best of him again.
 
padzilla said:
The issue at the back is Varane's fitness.
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Ten Hag knows this, he has mentioned it in pre season and before the start of the season.

He knows he will need to be managed, if he can play one game a week and play Maguire Lindelof in the Europa.
 
QUOTE="OpenIntrovert, post: 29368782, member: 123112"]
Star players always want the ball come to them. This has always been the case in history for all, inclusive of Messi. As for Ronaldo, I don't find it a big problem as he is playing as a CF and CFs do need the ball to come to them, otherwise they won't be able to score.

The bigger problem with Ronaldo is that he can lose his head when things don't go well, which is what happened with Brentford. He has shown that he can press and defend (e.g. 2-1 win against Villareal at Old Trafford) when he is really in the mood. It also did not help that Rashford's style of play conflicts with Ronaldo, as Rashford acts more as a striker than a winger. If Ronaldo can be motivated (maybe with Casemiro in the side it will be different), we will see the best of him again.
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But most star players don't throw a strop like Cristiano. Perhaps Mbappe is an exception. And since you mention Messi, while he does want the ball, he is also generous with it and always plays his natural game.
 
troylocker said:
What about Bruno and Sancho? Do they count?

Anyway! The back 4 looked great, the midfield clicked better and the front 3 looked dangerous.
It's not possible to play with that intensity or press like we did the first 20 minutes with Ronaldo on the pitch. Even when he came on the last 10 minutes he looked like he was conserving energy.
I loved to see the intensity, urgency and passion Martinez and Malacia played with. The leadership Varane and Bruno showed. Martial looked great when he came on, great half from him.

Maguire and Ronaldo must step up their game if they want to start a game again this season.
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Agreed and if others haven't figured out by now, the post was tongue-in-cheek, since I think most of Ole's signings will go not before long (some like Sancho will stay, since they fit the system).

Regarding Ronaldo, I wanted him to stay because we were looking so short up front but now the Glazers are breaking the bank and we might have a squad for EtH to use, I'd let him go (if someone pays up).

As for Maguire (and Shaw and AwB), the less said, the better
 
Yes I'm a hater but the midfield was much more dynamic and less passive without fred slowing down transitions with his safe back passes etc. Also it was evident of better control without him leaving his position chasing balls like a headless chicken
 
At least Ronaldo looked happy when we scored the first goal. Maguire and Shaw looked proper pissed that we won.
 
Ronaldo is good striker to have and probably GOAT when it comes to strikers
He would make a good squad player at a top team but He has to accept his role in squad
I cant see him being happy as a squad player for Utd so its time to move him on before he starts undermining ETH
 
Nevilles.Wear.Prada said:
Probably because the attack look instantly better when martial relently press, elanga mives about and bruno don't always have to pass to the statue called Ronaldo? No?!

Just me then.
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The problem with this reasoning is that Martial has proven over the last 5 seasons that this 'relentless' pressing is actually very short-lived and is very quickly replaced by wastefulness and lethargy. The same has become true of Rashford.

Yes, Ronaldo isn't a pressing monster and that's a problem but the biggest problem alongside that has been that the players around him with the capability to press, like Rashford, Bruno, Martial, have consistently fallen well short of the required standard.

Ronaldo's goals would balance off the lack of pressing from him but they can't mitigate for his lack of pressing and the rest of the team.

What happened last night was Ten Hag got a tune out of players by making them play in that way but they've had plenty of opportunities to do that before, with and without Ronaldo...so it's on them, not him!

Here's hoping, whatever system and personnel, they keep it up and don't revert to type
 
I mean I personally would have waited to see how we got on, on the weekend before making emphatic threads such as this. If this same eleven reverts to type against Southampton and we get our arses handed to us it will look very stupid.
Maguire and Ronaldo have not played in a number of games where we have still been atrocious.
The biggest difference tonight was that the entire team increased their workrate tenfold. It’s actually mad how after all this time we still have people narrowing down the long term issues to individuals.
 
ETH said there will be a number of games in the season so the squad will be needed. Can see Ronaldo and Maguire featuring in a number of games as we will need a good squad to compete on all fronts.
 
The most disappointing thing about our first two fixtures was how the intensity dropped from pre season, yesterday we showed it.
Like Keane said post match, a lot of the times the players turn up to games thinking they should just win, the opponent should just let them play, yesterday they earned it. We need to maintain that.
ETH needs to ensure the most influential players set the tempo, you don't get that from Ronaldo.
But Bruno, Casemiro and Martinez bring that. I'll go with this core and the front 3 that showed willingness to play this way in pre season.
It needs to be the way we go into every game in the EPL, next game will be Southampton, they wouldn't just roll over and loss, we'll need to outwork them with our better skillset that's the way to go.
 
Ronaldo is a legend of the sport who's age has finally caught him with him. It happens.

Biggest problem is the fridge. Even his big grumpy head sitting on the bench last night would turn milk (quicker than he turns).
 
I'd say Shaw and Maguire was the main difference. The left side of our defence was targeted by Liverpool in both games last season.

Ronaldo to an extent, but that just dates back to a daft transfer last summer rather than Shaw being 2 years away from a testimonial and Maguire being captain.

Martinez and Malacia as short as they are played on the front foot and didn't hold back. They also have the ability to recover, which the other two are awful at. Once bypassed, it's a chance conceded.
 
mshnsh said:
But most star players don't throw a strop like Cristiano. Perhaps Mbappe is an exception. And since you mention Messi, while he does want the ball, he is also generous with it and always plays his natural game.
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You might want to pay more attention to other players. Thierry Henry, Ruud Van Nistelrooy, Zlatan Ibrahimovic are just some that comes to mind. Other players don't exactly throw a strop, but you can see they are not happy when they don't receive the ball. In other words, it is a common trait.
 
Pexbo said:
we’re going to get a good measure of ten Hag’s stones when we see if he continues with it.
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I think we got good measure of them last night. That was a very brave line-up that could have backfired spectacularly. The fact it didn't was no doubt largely affected by our new look defence and the speed and intensity with which it cleared everything up and threw everything in the ring. Brilliant to see and set the tone for the rest of the team and importantly, the fans too.

I don't see why he wouldn't continue with it. I feel Maguire and Ronaldos days are numbered more than ever. Especially Maguire judging by ETH's comments on Varane's qualities before the match. Even though I suppose it could be explained away by his rough English, those comments were pretty damning on Maguire whether intentional or not.
 
NotoriousISSY said:
I'd say Shaw and Maguire was the main difference. The left side of our defence was targeted by Liverpool in both games last season.

Ronaldo to an extent, but that just dates back to a daft transfer last summer rather than Shaw being 2 years away from a testimonial and Maguire being captain.

Martinez and Malacia as short as they are played on the front foot and didn't hold back. They also have the ability to recover, which the other two are awful at. Once bypassed, it's a chance conceded.
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Good point. Salah tore us a new one last season.
 
Seij said:
I hope Fergie doesn't get recorded insisting Ronaldo has to start again.
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Well, even if he did, I actually have confidence in ETH dealing with any fallout and making future decisions alone*. Sir Alex did have success with 3 older-players (late30s / 40-ish): Scholes, Giggs and Teddy Sheringham, but Teddy S. was never the fastest, Scholes was more a passing based player and Giggs adapted his game as he grew older which I don't think Ronaldo wants to do. Plus, the game has changed in the last ten years to this fast, pressing style. I assume this 'think tank' I heard about is just an informal thing and doesn't carry any real weight. Ole felt compelled to react to SAFs 'advice' because I don't think he ever stopped thinking of him as the 'gaffer' - I think he has actually confirmed that himself.

I'm more concerned about another theory that is flying around internet: Liverpool played a weaker side and are quite happy with the result (secretly) because it will stop the Glazers/United spending anymore money in the transfer market (Gecko/Anthony) keeping their derby rivals weaker than they are, in the long-term.

*If he tried to freeze out Ronaldo completely - which I think he wanted to do after the pre-season 'issues', the Glazers might put pressure on him & I think they already have done. But if Christiano is on the bench and if he makes regular appearances later in games - which he will be quite effective at - they should be Ok with that. But will Christiano?
 
I think no Maguire and Shaw is the biggest difference, our defence looks more stable without them.
 
Red_toad said:
Agreed, Ronaldo has become one of the automatic players blame, along with Shaw, Harry, Rashford and McFred.
If he stays he’ll play an important part for the team.
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This comment, I could have picked any of thousands, just amazes me about this site and Man United fans. There are some who will always believe in the greatness of Ronaldo no matter what and there are some who have seen his return for what it is: a disaster. Both sides stick to their views and will probably never change.

Yes, he scored 20ish goals last season, but that was with everyone (especially Bruno) trying to find him all the time, but it impacted negatively on Bruno, on Rashford and on the team overall (the league doesn't lie). The only role Ronaldo has now at United is as an impact-sub in the last 20 minutes when pressing teams are knackered, but there are two problems with that: i) because of the new 5 subs rule, even weaker teams can refresh in the second half with players younger and fitter and ii) will Ronaldo accept a super-sub role or will he cause trouble for the manager if he tries to deploy him in that way?
 
I think the most interesting thing from last night was without maguire or Ronaldo it felt like there was togetherness in the team they were willing to fight and scrap and back each other up, clean up others mistakes with no complaints. Not seen since before Ronaldo returned, no doubt that Ronaldos return created a power struggle between coach, captain and Ronaldo the led to the obvious disharmony in the team and squad last season that was also visible at Brentford.

Taking them both out took that away and ETH mentioned how there was good leadership and communication from Bruno and Varane in particular in there absence.

We really need a United front and everyone pulling in the same direction and it is quite clear one player is an issue in that regards and another player has lost alot of authority and respect he once had because of it.
 
Longshanks said:
I think the most interesting thing from last night was without maguire or Ronaldo it felt like there was togetherness in the team they were willing to fight and scrap and back each other up, clean up others mistakes with no complaints. Not seen since before Ronaldo returned, no doubt that Ronaldos return created a power struggle between coach, captain and Ronaldo the led to the obvious disharmony in the team and squad last season that was also visible at Brentford.

Taking them both out took that away and ETH mentioned how there was good leadership and communication from Bruno and Varane in particular in there absence.

We really need a United front and everyone pulling in the same direction and it is quite clear one player is an issue in that regards and another player has lost alot of authority and respect he once had because of it.
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Yep. Agree. IMO we should let Ronaldo leave on a free and sign an attacker. He's too much of a narcissist to be part of a gelling team and he's no longer good enough to build around. You can see it e.g. when he reacts to the team scoring a goal. He's not happy, because it wasn't him who scored.

Not opposed to letting Maguire go to Chelsea either, if we can get 50m for him. They seem a bit desperate.
 
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