Would this United beat Stoke on a 2 leg tie? I have my doubts.
NO manager can fix this!
- Thread starter Compton22
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Yet one managerial change at Spurs who were a mess last season and everything's great for them now.
But seemingly for United years of surgery will be required to get the good times back
But seemingly for United years of surgery will be required to get the good times back
We don’t have a plan other than managers choices. Until the structure at the top changes we’ll continue to struggle amidst the odd decent year or two. We hand the keys to club to the manager because we have feck all else to bring to the table.
It's feeling to me exactly like the Ralf Ragnick time. Players are waiting for the next manager to come in. While he (ETH) won the Ronaldo battle, he's losing the Sancho, Maguire, McTominay battle. Rashford and Bruno have for whatever reason also downed tools. How different it was a few months ago.
For a manager brought in for his specific style of play which has been synonymous with his career these players either refuse to take it on board or are incapable of doing it. He has the tactical ability and has got respect from managers allover the world.
There has been constant patterns to this over the last ten years. The rot from above, people wedged into roles that feels more jobs for the boys than best in class as well as player throwing managers under the bus. Despite the injuries we know these guys can play better. We're also still paying over the odds for constant stop gap players who need replacing after 2 years. Finally the management turnover. It's literally rinse repeat.
I don't blame him. I'm done with that. He'll either rise above it or won't. If not I'll welcome Zidane, Ancelotti, whoever. Enjoy the new manager bounce for a season and then await the pattern to repeat itself again.
Any vestige of us being a football club is gone for me. We are a business with owners who don't want to sell not because of a love for the club and sport they believe we will make them more money as the years go on while our debt, ffp, lack of infrastructure, all the things we hate will only worsen and the circle of patterns keep rolling on.
The culture from the top has truly infected every aspect of the club.
For a manager brought in for his specific style of play which has been synonymous with his career these players either refuse to take it on board or are incapable of doing it. He has the tactical ability and has got respect from managers allover the world.
There has been constant patterns to this over the last ten years. The rot from above, people wedged into roles that feels more jobs for the boys than best in class as well as player throwing managers under the bus. Despite the injuries we know these guys can play better. We're also still paying over the odds for constant stop gap players who need replacing after 2 years. Finally the management turnover. It's literally rinse repeat.
I don't blame him. I'm done with that. He'll either rise above it or won't. If not I'll welcome Zidane, Ancelotti, whoever. Enjoy the new manager bounce for a season and then await the pattern to repeat itself again.
Any vestige of us being a football club is gone for me. We are a business with owners who don't want to sell not because of a love for the club and sport they believe we will make them more money as the years go on while our debt, ffp, lack of infrastructure, all the things we hate will only worsen and the circle of patterns keep rolling on.
The culture from the top has truly infected every aspect of the club.
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The excuses people make for a fraud who has spent 450m and gets exposed in all kinds of games is remarkable.
If not drop him, at least sub him off. He keeps bringing on Garnacho but hooks Hojlund and moves Rushford into the middle where he's even less effective. If I was Hojlund, I'd be getting seriously pissed off about that.
We can change managers again and the same thing will happen again. The same people will blame the manager and the same people will blame the club. Funny to go around in circles.
If you watch their games they are playing far better than us. Their problem is finishing.
They can also say that their midfield at least is already sorted for the future, we can't say that for anywhere on the pitch.
These players got to two finals last season and everyone praised the manager. Now they've all regressed and can't string two passes together he needs an entire new squad. If Ten Hag was responsible for them reaching the finals, he's also responsible for this dog shit we're currently serving up. Which proves a new manager could get something out of them.
Good managers can do well under bad ownership but many won’t. The structure needs to change so managers don’t have full control over recruitment. Ten Hag, like previous managers have created a mess and now sacking him means another expensive club overhaul. Why can’t the Glazers see this? I’ve always wondered if Sir Alex has an influence with this decision because he always had control of all elements at the club.
This cannot just be the defence for Ten Hag. With full control over recruitment he’s made bad choices. Antony for £86m. Mason Mount is an unforgivable transfer, wasting £60m when we needed defensive recruitments and a replacement for Eriksen.
The team is constantly the same with bad performances. The only players to come in are ones he tried to sell like McTominay and Maguire. Bruno and Rashford should be dropped for their poor performances. There are no patterns of play, no shape. I think even Neville was questioning Ten Hag in commentary. Ten Hag has an arrogances which causes us to get hammered by opponents for being too attacking.
The writing is on the wall for the manager. He should be sacked now but in true United style this will drag out for months until the decision has to be made and the season is lost.
This cannot just be the defence for Ten Hag. With full control over recruitment he’s made bad choices. Antony for £86m. Mason Mount is an unforgivable transfer, wasting £60m when we needed defensive recruitments and a replacement for Eriksen.
The team is constantly the same with bad performances. The only players to come in are ones he tried to sell like McTominay and Maguire. Bruno and Rashford should be dropped for their poor performances. There are no patterns of play, no shape. I think even Neville was questioning Ten Hag in commentary. Ten Hag has an arrogances which causes us to get hammered by opponents for being too attacking.
The writing is on the wall for the manager. He should be sacked now but in true United style this will drag out for months until the decision has to be made and the season is lost.
The Glazers don't coach the players or implement the on-field strategy.
Glazers going would be great, but it's the manager's job to make the best of the talent he has at his disposal, and he has not been doing that for a while now. I don't believe with the players the team has, that they cannot play better.
Now, it is his job to turn this around up until he doesn't have the job.
There absolutely does need to be better recruitment, but ETH can't complain he didn't know the situation he was walking into, and he has gotten plenty of players he wanted to work with.
Now, I agree there are mitigating factors, Rashford doesn't play as well without a proper overlapping LB behind him (Shaw). Hojlund is green. Bruno cannot keep putting in the performances he is. Missing Martinez is a big problem. Casemiro dropped of a cliff. However he is in a position to do something about some of these issues, and does not.
I'm not gung ho about sacking him now, but he needs to produce something.
Glazers going would be great, but it's the manager's job to make the best of the talent he has at his disposal, and he has not been doing that for a while now. I don't believe with the players the team has, that they cannot play better.
Now, it is his job to turn this around up until he doesn't have the job.
There absolutely does need to be better recruitment, but ETH can't complain he didn't know the situation he was walking into, and he has gotten plenty of players he wanted to work with.
Now, I agree there are mitigating factors, Rashford doesn't play as well without a proper overlapping LB behind him (Shaw). Hojlund is green. Bruno cannot keep putting in the performances he is. Missing Martinez is a big problem. Casemiro dropped of a cliff. However he is in a position to do something about some of these issues, and does not.
I'm not gung ho about sacking him now, but he needs to produce something.
We said the same with Ole when he was caretaker manager.
Ten Hag is responsible for some of this mess, some of his decisions have been very questionable, but it's no coincidence really that we've now had 5 permanent managers since Fergie and we've had only small spells of good football.
Four of those managers have done nothing or very little since leaving United though.
It's very possible we just keep getting the wrong guy in.
Never in the history of football was so much,
spent on so many,
for so little in return….
spent on so many,
for so little in return….
While the rot starts at the top, I have little confidence in ETH. I'm not seeing any pragmatic solutions from him. Don't tell me Spurs has a much better squad than we do and yet look at them play with fire and ambition.
ETH's signings have been a very mixed bag. And that's saying it kindly
ETH's signings have been a very mixed bag. And that's saying it kindly
It’s fair to ask questions about the manager and players. It is part of the game. Not going to argue that.
The main problem for me is our footballing setup. It’s not a good one. Ask yourself one question; Would the likes of Arnold or Murtough be on the cards of other elite teams?
Look at Liverpool. They did not do good before they got a serious footballing setup. When they lost some key people, they did not do great.
It’s like this in any industry. You need a good setup to get good results.
For example a guy like Jean Claude Blanc would make a difference imo. Add him and some vastly experienced people in key roles and we will see things happen.
So again, I think we are stuck with mediocrity as long as we got the Glazers as owners.
I want him to get the whole season but if at the end of it we still play and look like a mid-table team he has to go.
Of course a manager makes a huge huge difference. Looks at Spurs, Liverpool, Newcastle etc
Moyes, Van Gaal, Ralph, Oli and Ralf were never the correct pedigree of manager. It's now looking like Ten Haag isn't either. Wish we'd just go and get De Zerbi. You know you'd at least see a playing style implemented.
Moyes, Van Gaal, Ralph, Oli and Ralf were never the correct pedigree of manager. It's now looking like Ten Haag isn't either. Wish we'd just go and get De Zerbi. You know you'd at least see a playing style implemented.
True but would you not rather win games and not play as good in some or play really good and lose games still? Chelsea might play good but don’t get the results. We’ve been poor but grinded out results. Let’s just say we’re miles behind Liverpool, City, Arsenal and probably even spurs..
Would you though? It's not about pedigree - ETH is unarguably the right pedigree (domestic league winner, played good football, CL regular) - it's about finding someone who can navigate the maelstrom of what makes up Man United right now.
De Zerbi is clearly a good hands on coach but he is not having to deal with the level of ego and difficulty that ETH does. Overpaid, underperforming kids who are drowned in money before they've achieved anything coupled with swansong past greats happy to pick up a big last pay cheque. We are not that different in our player make up than a club in the Saudi League, it is a real mess.
De Zerbi is also a pretty combustible character. He’d get eaten alive.
NO manager can fix this? This is exactly what spurs fans said last season and they were wrong too. There won't be a change until the ownership issue is sorted either by sale or Radcliffe's 25%.
To suggest no manager could get better performances and results than we're currently getting is frankly laughable. ETH should get back to his possession attacking based principles which landed him the job and have the balls to drop those who won't or can't play it. If he doesn't he's done
To suggest no manager could get better performances and results than we're currently getting is frankly laughable. ETH should get back to his possession attacking based principles which landed him the job and have the balls to drop those who won't or can't play it. If he doesn't he's done
Everyones is to be shouldered some of the blames. But until we clear out the top and start restructuring from the top, nothing will come to fruition. We do have some of the good cogs but keep dragging down because of the bad cogs. We have to start from the top first and make sure we get the right one step by step.
Players wise, i think we keep getting the wrong ones, we havs to prioritse the ones that are very good at press resistence, especiall the midfield. I cant fathom to watch United Midfield that cannot get pass players. Is it that hard to buy players that can evade the press, leave 2/3 players dead and open up the space for others. I dont think so, but why we seems to never buy those. Is it becaue we have to cater to our posfer boy or players in Rashford, Bruno that we have to buy players to fit the strategy of playing more with transition and counter?
Players wise, i think we keep getting the wrong ones, we havs to prioritse the ones that are very good at press resistence, especiall the midfield. I cant fathom to watch United Midfield that cannot get pass players. Is it that hard to buy players that can evade the press, leave 2/3 players dead and open up the space for others. I dont think so, but why we seems to never buy those. Is it becaue we have to cater to our posfer boy or players in Rashford, Bruno that we have to buy players to fit the strategy of playing more with transition and counter?
Does anyone really think replacing Ten Hag would change anything right now?
The cloud of negativity surrounding the club starts at the top, the prolonged takeover sets the pattern out and this has permeated throughout the club. Bringing someone new into this expecting a fix is mental.
We need some positivity and then for everyone to rally around it. Whether that's Ratcliffe coming in, a big result or something else, the narrative needs changing.
The cloud of negativity surrounding the club starts at the top, the prolonged takeover sets the pattern out and this has permeated throughout the club. Bringing someone new into this expecting a fix is mental.
We need some positivity and then for everyone to rally around it. Whether that's Ratcliffe coming in, a big result or something else, the narrative needs changing.
I don't think manager is the only one at fault. The footballing structure that provides the manager complete autonomy must go as well, and I think that that needs to happen before the next manager is appointed.
However, the current side is his side. He bought most of these players. He has been backed more than any of our previous managers. So, one can't absolve him of blame and pin it on the players. If you're spending 100m on Antony, and he isn't able to start games, that's on him. If your marquee MF signing from this season isn't starting, that's also on him. Why is the emergency LB not starting at LB over a makeshift LB? Why is your 70m striker signing getting subbed off when you're in need of a goal? All this is on ETH.
Hell, can one really look at yesterday's starting XI and say that that was the best XI we could have fielded, even after accounting for injuries? Is the football we're playing suddenly be so much better if Licha and Shaw were available? We've played 14 games this season, and the LC game vs Palace apart (where they played their B team), we haven't won a game by more than a goal!
However, the current side is his side. He bought most of these players. He has been backed more than any of our previous managers. So, one can't absolve him of blame and pin it on the players. If you're spending 100m on Antony, and he isn't able to start games, that's on him. If your marquee MF signing from this season isn't starting, that's also on him. Why is the emergency LB not starting at LB over a makeshift LB? Why is your 70m striker signing getting subbed off when you're in need of a goal? All this is on ETH.
Hell, can one really look at yesterday's starting XI and say that that was the best XI we could have fielded, even after accounting for injuries? Is the football we're playing suddenly be so much better if Licha and Shaw were available? We've played 14 games this season, and the LC game vs Palace apart (where they played their B team), we haven't won a game by more than a goal!
Yes, I really think we would. We see time and tine again that certain managers imprint their style on a team quickly. For example if we hired Brendan Rodgers now, by the end of the season you would 100% see his style of football.... if it would be good enough to win titles etc is a different question, you'd see the style though.
Yep. Regardless of what you think of ETH, the dressing room needs to be purged before you bring someone else in. I had assumed this was basically the point of Ragnick as a kind of sacrificial coaching lamb - come in and push for a very hard working, pressing style, upset a lot of players who don't want to work that hard, sell big names and clear out a lot of the underperformers and difficult characters. We did that half heartedly, then reverted back to type and now seem no different to during Ole or Mou's darker periods.
Club needs to accept where we are - an EL/CL club - and also accept the PL is now too rich to throw money at problems, because other teams can also do that. There needs to be a longer term plan in place and that means completely changing our recruitment and eating a massive slice of humble pie. We are not a big club in terms of results any more, the sooner we accept that, the sooner we can then move onto addressing how we can build back to the place we want to be.
For example, Case's agent calls Murtough and say Casemiro wants a new challenge and Murtough gets giddy, we've needed a DM and been embarassed in this De Jong pursuit, Casemiro is the big name in everyone's book int he DM role, no one stops to ask 'why?'. Why does a player of that calibre want to move to a club which isn't even in the CL and no realistic chance of winning the PL in the near future? Do they have links to the club or area? Why are Real open to selling in the first place? Why is Casemiro's game time diminishing steadily? It's because of arrogance, we genuinely still think we are able to attract the best and it's just a transfer window or two away from all being ok.
Even after this you then think, ok this could be a great short term option, we will have to pay him massive wages so I assume the fee will be more nominal, £30m maybe £40m for essentially a one to two season player? No, £70m for aplayer without any sell on value unless Saudi rescue us.
I don't know. De Zerbi's style is about the collective, it's about bloody hard work and unselfishness. People look at possession football and think you just need technical players and good passers but the most important thing is off the ball movement which is the most tiring thing (both mentally and physically) and, if I am looking at our team as a fan, I'm not sure a number of our players genuinely want that.
It's not really his side though is it?
His side would consist of at least 5 different players compared to yesterdays line up. Martinez, Varane, Shaw, Casemiro and Antony would all feature in his best line up.
The difference they would make is massive as well. A back 4 with Maguire and Evans sits back, one with Martinez and Varane does not. A United with Shaw attacks quicker and more effectively than one without. Casemiro and Antony don't make quite as much difference but all 5 on the pitch makes us a much better team. A team that reaches finals, knocks a La Liga winning Barcelona out of Europe, becomes near unbeatable at home etc.
It's fair to ask why Varane didn't start yesterday though but he alone isn't going to make a difference. The only one of the 5 who would make a difference on their own imo is Shaw but having the 5 of them on the pitch week in week out would make us far better than we are now.
In our situation (season pretty much already over) I'd rather be playing well and not getting results because that would be a more encouraging sign. There's no part of our lineup to be excited about. I'd be happy if we had Chelsea's midfield.
Agree. The United way, whatever that is, is as a minimum playing attacking and exciting football.
But he's spent a fortune on players, how many managers get their own team before they can be judged? Do Spurs or Villa have the manager team. He spent a fortune on two average players who he benched yesterday. He signed 2 loan players, one he benched and one he subbed at HT. Why? Literally noone knows what he is thinking and not sure he does
No one asked him not to start Varane and Antony though, did they?
And as far as injuries go, we did have Shaw available at the start of the season, same for Licha. I dont think we were scintillating to watch in the 1-0 to Wolves or the 0-2 loss to Spurs, were we?
Look, here's all the players EtH has signed or extended contracts of, and were available yesterday:
Onana
Dalot Evans xx Reguilon
Amrabat Eriksen
Antony Mount Rashford
Hojlund
I mean, apart from 1 CB slot, an entire XI with the same formation he used yesterday could have been composed of his players. And I'm not including a Varane or a Bruno or Garnacho here!
I don’t know why poor transfers arent blamed on the manager. We have scouts. Its part of the job to identify the best candidates for the team. Like the rest he's spent loads and we are piss poor. We now have the highest net spend of any club in a decade and hardly a succes among them.
For 12 months yes, then the weak-mentality squad would regress again and the cycle continues. I don't know if Ten Haag is the right man, but I'm bored of this cycle of mediocrity.
I understand the sentiment, I really do, because I have also used this argument in defence of previous managers - but context is absolutely critical.
Under Jose, the press constantly hounded him for not being close enough to City. If that's the criteria for success, then I'd absolutely use the argument that our footballing structure does not allow for our manager to be successful - crucially if winning the title/Champions League is the metric for 'success'
Unfortunately for ETH, who I was in favour of appointing and do like as a character, we're not even discussing whether we can compete with City for major trophies. We're talking about finishing top four. Progressing to the knockout stages of the Champions Leaugue. Having the odd deep domestic cup run etc...
If you use those as your 'success criteria', then it's absolutely possible to be 'successful', even allowing for the less than ideal footballing structure we have in-place currently.
For me, I don't care who is sat in the boardroom, there's enough talent in the squad to be performing much, much better than we are - both in terms of results, which are not there, and also performances, which are not there either.
There's no shame in moving on. ETH had a decent CV, he showed some potential, as it turns out, he's fallen short of elite. So move on and try again.
Under Jose, the press constantly hounded him for not being close enough to City. If that's the criteria for success, then I'd absolutely use the argument that our footballing structure does not allow for our manager to be successful - crucially if winning the title/Champions League is the metric for 'success'
Unfortunately for ETH, who I was in favour of appointing and do like as a character, we're not even discussing whether we can compete with City for major trophies. We're talking about finishing top four. Progressing to the knockout stages of the Champions Leaugue. Having the odd deep domestic cup run etc...
If you use those as your 'success criteria', then it's absolutely possible to be 'successful', even allowing for the less than ideal footballing structure we have in-place currently.
For me, I don't care who is sat in the boardroom, there's enough talent in the squad to be performing much, much better than we are - both in terms of results, which are not there, and also performances, which are not there either.
There's no shame in moving on. ETH had a decent CV, he showed some potential, as it turns out, he's fallen short of elite. So move on and try again.
This is the core of why people don't like ETH so I think it needs addressing.
Mount is obviously not very good. Rice was available. But he cost too much and didn't fancy us anyway because we're not competitive. So he went somewhere else. Mount was what we could get and what we could afford. ETH probably thought he could get a tune out of him, and he probably will eventually.
Antony was over priced and has obvious limitations (though I rate him as a long term prospect). ETH had to deliver success quickly and the club transfer department was completely dysfunctional after years of glazernomics. And so ETH did his best and hoped for the best.
Yes he had a huge say in approving those signings but in a functional club he would not have needed to. The director of football would have brought him better options that he'd been softening up for years like Arsenal did with Rice.
ETH is a great coach, but not a scouting and transfer genius. He should not need to be. If he's falling down in that area it's because the pervasive rot in the club is forcing him to do stuff he's not good at. It's a shame that some fans don't have the basic critical thinking skills to see that. It does not matter who the manager is - at this rate we will become Aston Villa and then Leeds. Don't think it can't happen. It can.
I agree with you, so please don’t infer that I’m dumb.
I like ten Hag but he is far from faultless, in many aspects.
He's spent a fortune yes but he's currently having to play a side that includes players he actively tried to get out of the club in the summer. Because of that we ended up signing two player who I have no doubts at all were not the intended targets but signed out of necessity. Is that Ten Hags fault? Not entirely, if at all.
Ok but of that line up, only 1 of the 5 players I listed are on the pitch. 3 of them were signed not because ETH demanded they were, but because we were unable to shift unwanted players and were therefore restricted financially.
Yes, ETH must shoulder some of the blame with decisions that he has made, but let's not forget what the key issue is here.
You really think more than half of the transfer targets acquired this summer were his 1st choice? Even 2nd choice? Let alone the injuries he's had to deal with.
The form of Rashford and Fernandes has been inexcusable and yet again, the players are downing tools on the manager and putting 0 effort in because they know it'll all come down on ETH's head.
We find ourselves once again, at the part of the post Ferguson cycle where the manager is to blame. Let's be real and just accept that until the main problems at the top of the club are dealt with i.e. the Glazers, director of football, debt clearance, NO manager or player will succeed at this club! The rot is too deep for anyone to fix at a 1st team managerial level, it's a literal graveyard.
I'm so sad at what this great club has become
The problem is, imo, that our transfers shouldn't be based on Ten Hags choices. We should have a structure with a DOF and scouts who look for a type of profile or player that fits in the general philosophy of Man United. We don't have a vision, just the coach his vision and that is so outdated it boils my blood.
Also, when he started he was a lot more ruthless than now. Bruno, Rashford, Anthony keep getting selected while they are playing some amateur level of football. And he keeps playing Bruno on the right ( that alone should get him sacked imo ).
We still struggle with the basics like passing, 1-2's, general defensive shape etc. Rashford keeps running into defenders without looking up ( like an amateur imo ) and Bruno keeps trying these ridiculous hero balls that only work 5% of the time. Anybody who thinks Bruno is world class or on the same level as De Bruyne is utterly deluded. The guy fecks up so many simple passes it's laughable. We still don't have an identity, we still don't have a structure and WE STILL have players like Martial chilling around.
Ten Hag is not going to fix anything. Zidane won't fix anything, Ancelotti won't fix anything and even Pep would resign within the week of managing a venomous team like United.
We are horrible, all the way from the top till down. Please just look at how other teams play, and copy them for fecks sake. How hard can it be to have flanks who cut inside and fullbacks who overlap? Why do teams like City, Liverpool, Newcastle ALWAYS have overlapping players while our idiots just stand there? We can't even do the basics right, let alone compete with the best of the world. + just look at the general 50/50 duels, we almost ALWAYS lose 50/50's with our bunch off weak pussies.
And what's the worst? I keep supporting this so called football team ( I have been my whole fecking life ) while we are abysmal and we just don't even try to improve anything.
Even Messi, Haaland, Bellingham, Camavinga, Tchouameni, Kroos, Modric,.... would epicly fail at our cancerous team.