Nicola Sturgeon and Scottish Independence

However you lean on independence (you seem on the fence to me) you should be troubled by this ruling.

If the SNP weren't a horribly incompetent bunch of twats I might be troubled. But all they want is their independence vote. If we had a vote every 2 weeks we would eventually get a yes. And then what? There's no coming back. That's it. Because a small majority wanted something at a certain moment.

It should absolutely be a large majority wanting it, and the outcome should be a forgone conclusion. The SNP don't represent Scotland anymore than the Tories represent the UK.
 
And again will emphasise that all of the discussion is not about my own personal feeelings on Scottish independence but by those who are surprised/troubled by the Supreme Court ruling, which I can't believe anyone was truly surprised by?
 
I’d be far more troubled if there was a law allowing parts of the country to hold once in a generation referenda whenever they like, and repeat until they get the result they desire.

You’d probably have one a week in Cornwall.

The state of play in 2014 compared to now, means that this ‘once in a generation’ that Unionists like to quote is meaningless in my opinion. Brexit made sure of that. That’s before getting into the recent unelected Tory governments being foisted upon the rest of the country.
 
The dynamics of Scotland and it's relationship with the UK are very different to those that were in play during the first independence vote. With Brexit happening (which we should remember Scotland did not vote for), covid and the complete shitshow of Westminster and England currently, the view/life of Scottish people and the views/lives of the rest of the UK are very different.

I think in terms of culture arguments it's impossible to argue that the UK isn't culturally interwoven but I would also argue that the cultures and fabric of each nation are rather distinct, personal and different.
 
I mean, putting history aside, essentially yes?

What marks Scotland out compared to Florida for example? Does it have its own currency? Its own head of state? Its own constitution? Its own military? Does it sit at the UN?

What kinds of things can Sturgeon or the Scottish Parliament do that, for instance, De Sanctis and the Florida legislature can't do?

Something is a country when the people living there consider it to be a country. Ultimately it's that simple, the people are sovereign.
 
Something is a country when the people living there consider it to be a country. Ultimately it's that simple, the people are sovereign.

That's a very nebulous definition no impact on what said country or its elected representatives is actually allowed to do. I imagine the majority of Kurds would consider themselves to be a people and a country and yet ultimately they do not have a country, are not represented internationally and, apart from in Iraq (and I guess Syria to some extent) are not particularly self-ruling.
 
I wonder if hypothetically speaking Scotland gaining independence would boost the Welsh movement (though I can’t see it ever happening). The numbers are still low, but Welsh Labour are a lot more popular than the Tories, who are pretty damn unpopular here. I wonder what it would mean for the union as a whole. I’m not sure how NI would respond either.

welsh-indy-poll.png
 
If the SNP weren't a horribly incompetent bunch of twats I might be troubled. But all they want is their independence vote. If we had a vote every 2 weeks we would eventually get a yes. And then what? There's no coming back. That's it. Because a small majority wanted something at a certain moment.

It should absolutely be a large majority wanting it, and the outcome should be a forgone conclusion. The SNP don't represent Scotland anymore than the Tories represent the UK.
The Tories are in power though and have been for 12 years! Big difference.
 
Something is a country when the people living there consider it to be a country. Ultimately it's that simple, the people are sovereign.

Tricky that idea,

The precedent set would invite and make it easy for the Orkneys to leave and become one of the wealthiest places on earth, watch as the SNP's arguments change then.
 
Tricky that idea,

The precedent set would invite and make it easy for the Orkneys to leave and become one of the wealthiest places on earth, watch as the SNP's arguments change then.

I now declare independence for the republic of Cheltenham, Oxford and London situated on the historic A40 corridor. We will become incredibly wealthy and I will be taking no questions. Thank you.
 
Scotland wants it own Brexit from the UK -allow it let us leave, most of England hate Scotland anyway they should be jumping at the chance to get rid.
 
Which then also brought up what a country even apparently has the right to do vs a state in the USA or the premier of Quebec for instance. I don't know much about Canadian politics (perhaps @Cheimoon can add more here) but it turns out that Sturgeon seemingly has quite a bit less power than De Santis or Abbot.
For what it's worth, the Canadian federal government and the provincial governments are technically on an equal footing; the provinces do not represent a lower level of jurisdictional hierarchy. (The territories do, which is why I am not mentioning them here.) Consequently, Canadian provinces have a significant level of independence. E.g., health policy, infrastructure, policing, education, and more are exclusively provinciall competencies. There is no Canadian education system, Canadian public health insurance, etc.: every province has its own.

The complication comes in where federal laws supersede provincial laws, and provincial income in large part comes from federally collected taxes. This gives the federal government significant leverage and is one reason why e.g. public health insurance plans across the country are quite similar. But this leads to a constant tension that you can see play out constantly. Just yesterday, I read that Alberta is challenging the federal competency to set emissions limits for the gas and oil industry, arguing that these limit the production of those companies, while managing natural resources is a provincial competency. And two weeks ago, all provinces challenged the federal position to only increase the Canadian health transfer (the money the federal government transfer to the provinces for their health care systems, which currently covers close to a quarter of their costs) with certain conditions on how money is spent, while the provincies say that health care is a provincial competency for which they should just receive funding to spend as they want.

I'll add that Quebec additionally has managed to get some further independence. In particular, it has its own tax office and thus has more of its own income. Also, policing is a little more complicated. Most municipalities have their own police force, but many rural municipalities don't. In that case, the RCMP, the federal police which otherwise primarily serves to enforce federal criminal law, takes care of regular policing duties. However, Ontario and Quebec have their own provincial police force which takes care of highway and rural policing and protects government buildings and persons, and Alberta is considering creating one as well.

Other Canadians can correct me where I got it wrong above; I'm sure @Dr. Dwayne will spot some issues! :) All the same, while I don't know the UK system in detail, from what I've read, Scotland's situation does not go beyond this.

As for my own view on obtaining independence: I do think it should be up for a region by itself to decide if it wants to become independent - as much as that's not apparently not how it's done almost anywhere. And I think that should be entirely regardless of history or jurisdictions. I mean, if Cape Breton Island (which was never its own jurisdiction and doesn't have much history of note) would push for independence, I think they have'd as much a point as anyone. My problem is with voting percentages. Is a simple majority enough? What if it's a majority of 1 person, and 2 people change their minds tomorrow? It seems a little whimsical to make such a large decision based on, potentially, a tiny majority vote. (Same for Brexit btw.) On the other hand, a majority is a majority; why would the threshold have to be 60% or whatever? Maybe a solution would be to have a repeat vote: if you can get a majority now and again a year from now, you're good to go.
 
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Why? Provided the electoral system was vaguely proportional it would be the desire of the population. That's the whole point of democracy.

Democracy needs stability to work. It isn't undemocratic to have general election every 5 years, rather than every month, or every week, or every day. And general elections very rarely lead to genuinely difficult-to-reverse constitutional changes, so the time between referenda should be much greater.

People change their minds all the time based on unrelated political events, and you need a long period of time to assess impact and introduce policy. One day there might be a majority for independence. Even one decade. Then, like most populist ideas with little sound political or economic basis, it could, and will likely, fade.

I imagine support for Brexit is dwindling every year. Who knows what will happen in 5 years. Or 10. We could be in a full customs union, with the right to live, travel and work in EU countries, following a decade of centre left government and greater devolution to local areas around the whole UK. Or something could crash the Euro, gas prices could lead to more extreme populists winning elections, and even remainers might be glad we steered clear.

At the worst time for us since WWII, in the middle of a global oil/gas crisis, war in Europe and following a pandemic, focussing efforts on a vote now/ greater instability seems ludicrous. Add that we had a referendum in the last decade, the SNP don't get 50% of the votes in Scotland and there has been no consistent and clear majority opinion for Scoxit, makes the whole thing a farce.

If there is a consistent super majority for it though over a significant period, it will happen, judge ruling or not.
 
She's been bouyed in her views by disaffected Labour voters who, following the 2014 referendum, thought they could safely make a point.

The next GE should sort that out I reckon.
 
I'm kind of stunned. Compared to other major UK politicians she always seemed like someone whose heart was in the right place, even if I didn't buy into all her policies.

I don't know if she just got tired of fighting, because she has seemed like a lone voice on some big issues for a while now, or if something else is going on. No idea what impact this will have on the SNP or politics generally either. I'll be watching the news (and this thread) with interest and some trepidation.
 
A source close to Ms Sturgeon - the longest-serving first minister - told the BBC that she had "had enough".
 
The press have been clear to say ‘hastily arranged press conference’.

Which really makes it feel that her that hand has been forced by something.
 
Few weeks back she was still claiming to have “plenty in the tank”. I’ve got a few friends from Scotland that respect SNP and Sturgeon, so I’m quite sad for her, from my limited knowledge she was a good leader.
 
Probably getting out ahead of something
Not just that but might also be this.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news...y-fiasco-firm-costs-taxpayer-nearly-500m-far/

There's also national bargaining going on for support staff in colleges, a process that's already taken over three years of assessment. College lecturers, teachers across all schools and unis have standardised pay but not college support staff. Police are national, NHS is national, yet this particular group are not? The process has already cost millions and the government has failed to provide the additional funding needed to harmonize pay, even though they started the entire process in the first place and said they had the money. So colleges will now make local decisions (which defeats the entire purpose of national standards). It's been a total mess.
 
Not just that but might also be this.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news...y-fiasco-firm-costs-taxpayer-nearly-500m-far/

There's also national bargaining going on for support staff in colleges, a process that's already taken over three years of assessment. College lecturers, teachers across all schools and unis have standardised pay but not college support staff. Police are national, NHS is national, yet this particular group are not? The process has already cost millions and the government has failed to provide the additional funding needed to harmonize pay, even though they started the entire process in the first place and said they had the money. So colleges will now make local decisions (which defeats the entire purpose of national standards). It's been a total mess.
That is just such a shocking read. Unbelievable!
 
Wow. Plenty must be happening behind the scenes for her to do that, and we await the murky details.

In my opinion, she's been the best politician across all parties in the UK, by some distance, and for some time. Always felt that she should have been leader of the Labour party, if she could have managed her personal mission re Independance. She could be PM, and would embrace the role and world stage. This is a surprise, and I feel a bit of a shame, because we don't have many really, top quality politicians to choose from.

The tories will be happy.
 
Wow. Plenty must be happening behind the scenes for her to do that, and we await the murky details.

In my opinion, she's been the best politician across all parties in the UK, by some distance, and for some time. Always felt that she should have been leader of the Labour party, if she could have managed her personal mission re Independance. She could be PM, and would embrace the role and world stage. This is a surprise, and I feel a bit of a shame, because we don't have many really, top quality politicians to choose from.

The tories will be happy.

It's easy to say the "right" thing when you have no power - there's always someone else to blame with the SNP. The things she has had influence over have been a shambles. It should really be a piss-easy job - the SNP have got strong support and no real responsibility.

And the one thing that stands in the way of their independence dream is......that the Scottish don't want independence. So how do you go about winning those people over? The SNP went with "blame Westminster" instead of trying "be competent". Same as every other government and politician.

Good riddance I say.
 
Wow. Plenty must be happening behind the scenes for her to do that, and we await the murky details.

In my opinion, she's been the best politician across all parties in the UK, by some distance, and for some time. Always felt that she should have been leader of the Labour party, if she could have managed her personal mission re Independance. She could be PM, and would embrace the role and world stage. This is a surprise, and I feel a bit of a shame, because we don't have many really, top quality politicians to choose from.

The tories will be happy.

Not necessarily - it's a difficult job and perhaps she has just decided that she doesn't want to do it anymore.
 
It's easy to say the "right" thing when you have no power - there's always someone else to blame with the SNP. The things she has had influence over have been a shambles. It should really be a piss-easy job - the SNP have got strong support and no real responsibility.

And the one thing that stands in the way of their independence dream is......that the Scottish don't want independence. So how do you go about winning those people over? The SNP went with "blame Westminster" instead of trying "be competent". Same as every other government and politician.

Good riddance I say.

In many ways I agree, I think her political talents were wasted on her single-issue-idealogy, which has in fact, seemed to prevent a decent debate on the topic, rather than encourage.

But Nicola had an energy that was lacking from Scottish Politics, that's my view. Alex Salmond et al, were just happy to make a little noise, pass dismissive comments about Westminster, rather than energising what is a v v astute political demograpghy in Scotland.

Be interesting what happens next, because both Labour and the Tories are nowhere to be seen.
 
It's easy to say the "right" thing when you have no power - there's always someone else to blame with the SNP. The things she has had influence over have been a shambles. It should really be a piss-easy job - the SNP have got strong support and no real responsibility.

And the one thing that stands in the way of their independence dream is......that the Scottish don't want independence. So how do you go about winning those people over? The SNP went with "blame Westminster" instead of trying "be competent". Same as every other government and politician.

Good riddance I say.

Wouldn't say that. Since 2020 it's been fairly up and down in terms of opinion polls.
 
She was at her best during Covid when she couldnt bang the independence drum every 4 seconds.

Could have been a good leader if she had put a fraction of that indy energy into sorting the NHS and social care, or education, or social mobility, or tackling drug deaths.
Can those things be properly ‘sorted’ whilst part of the UK though? That’s the question.