What are you lot on about?
My first post was me saying it was crazy that MOST considered him THE best. I then went on to say he was in my top-5. Clearly you didn't read anything I posted @ha_rooney (which is fair enough).
What's your top 5 and why ?
NFL 2017/18
- Thread starter JustAFan
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What's your top 5 and why ?
As I'm only watching american football for about seven years, I wouldn't dare to say who is the GOAT. No idea. I don't even make such statements when it comes to football. But the best I've seen is without a doubt Rodgers.
There was a discussion up above regarding stats and whether they could capture a particular player's brilliance or greatness. I think they are something that you should consider, but football is truly a team sport and there are many other factors that have to be taken into account.
You can class these as intangibles or however you want, but Montana created a legacy of performing in the biggest games and in the vital moments. He has a 4-0 Super Bowl record and his performances in these games was incredible. The pass that led to The Catch...the drive that led to John Taylor's catch that won the Super Bowl...so so many moments.
Much is often made about the team he was on and the fact that he had Jerry Rice to throw to, but lets not forget that he joined a 2-14 team in 1979 and won the Super Bowl only 2 years later.
If I had to pick one QB to drive his team down the field to win a game it would be him. If I had to pick one QB to start in the Super Bowl, it would be him.
I don't like to judge on basic stats too much either. It's a factor, for sure. But it's not everything, just a peace of the puzzle. The same with trophies. Take Rodgers vs. the Cards a few years back. No other QB I have ever seen could have done what he did there. That team was not good. There were injuries all over the field and he basically had no time left. Two impossible and utterly ridiculous throws later we were in the endzone. Just so we could lose without Rodgers ever having the ball again. That was surely one of the greatest QB performances ever, at least the best I have ever seen. An unreal sequence of brilliance. But that doesn't show up on the stat sheet and he didn't get a trophy for it.
Don’t quite think you can say no QB could ever have done that. And even if so, doesn’t inherently make his the best today.
Take Brady against the Falcons. Not saying the Falcons didn’t help, but can also turn that back on you and say the Cards defence certainly opened the door for Rodgers.
And my challenge to you is what is more magnificent? Majestic throws no other QB can make, or a QB who is double digits down knowing he must drive his team to the end zone consistently from here on out to have a chance of winning, and delivering?
And it isn’t once. Not even once in a SB. Against the Seahawks defence which was probably close to its prime, he scored 14 4Q points. Everyone talks about Butlers pick - and that does highlight the limitations of looking at stats and trophies and rings (which I agree with you by the way - only one factor to consider) - but no one talks about the amazing drives which even got us close.
As mentioned before, boils down to what you think defines greatness; and what you think is better in terms of qualities and characteristics.
Among those I would consider in a GOAT discussion, limited to those I have seen play in their prime.
No particular order and with disclosure that Dan Marino is my favorite though that does not make him automatically my GOAT pick.
Tom Brady
Joe Montana
Terry Bradshaw
Aaron Rodgers
John Elway
Peyton Manning
Dan Fouts
Dan Marino
Drew Brees
Brett Favre
Warren Moon
Roger Staubach
Fran Tarkenton
Jim Kelly
Troy Aikman
Big Ben
Steve Young
Kenny Stabler
Phil Simms
We got quite a range of eras with different sets of rules, styles, etc.
Some on that list get eliminated fairly quickly as I think about it. Basically the bottom 9.
I consider a mix of stats, accomplishments, memorable moments, etc. all quite subjective in how I judge them and how I adjust them based on the different eras.
End of the day ....
Joe Montana tops my list. But in truth I could find arguements FOR any of the other 10, none of which would be crazy picks.
I will also admit that my pick is not free of emotion. Always loved Joe Montana as a player even in his college days.
Never a huge fan of Elway or Manning not that I think they are not great players but willing to admit I may underate them because I was just not a fan.
No particular order and with disclosure that Dan Marino is my favorite though that does not make him automatically my GOAT pick.
Tom Brady
Joe Montana
Terry Bradshaw
Aaron Rodgers
John Elway
Peyton Manning
Dan Fouts
Dan Marino
Drew Brees
Brett Favre
Warren Moon
Roger Staubach
Fran Tarkenton
Jim Kelly
Troy Aikman
Big Ben
Steve Young
Kenny Stabler
Phil Simms
We got quite a range of eras with different sets of rules, styles, etc.
Some on that list get eliminated fairly quickly as I think about it. Basically the bottom 9.
I consider a mix of stats, accomplishments, memorable moments, etc. all quite subjective in how I judge them and how I adjust them based on the different eras.
End of the day ....
Joe Montana tops my list. But in truth I could find arguements FOR any of the other 10, none of which would be crazy picks.
I will also admit that my pick is not free of emotion. Always loved Joe Montana as a player even in his college days.
Never a huge fan of Elway or Manning not that I think they are not great players but willing to admit I may underate them because I was just not a fan.
My opinion means shit in the grand scheme of things really, as I can only judge who I saw. I also can't fully decide on a top-5, but there's six who I think are in the conversation:
Brady, Brees, Manning, Marino, Rodgers and Young
I think it is far from clear who is the 'best', they all have arguments over one-another and there's no official criteria or grading system. As you've probably guessed I personally think Rodgers is the most talented, but if we are including legacy in the criteria (which seems to be the case on this board) then it's harder to make that argument.
Then I have Elway/Favre, with my 'one-to-watch' being Russell Wilson, who I think is incredible.
How about the ones for the future? What are the chances of guys like Wentz, Garoppolo, Watson and Wilson being in the 'greatest of all time' conversation a few years from now?
100%
I'd have things in three different categories
1. Brady - Won 5 Super Bowls (played in 7) and may soon be the stat king as well. Hard to argue against him as the best.
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2. Montana - A winner who led his team to 4 Super Bowls. Modest career stats among the best QBs, but 4 rings speak for themselves.
3. Manning - multiple Super Bowl winner and best career stats. Great professional. One of the rare QBs who was both great in college and the Pros.
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4. Elway - Won 2 Super Bowls (played in 5) and has a great stat resume. Gritty, passionate, great come from behind QB.
5. Rodgers - Super Bowl winner and owner of the best QB rating of all time, which counts for a lot
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6. Brees - Super Bowl winner and one the best stat CVs in NFL history. Most accurate passer in NFL history and may end up the stat king before its all said and done. Has average 5k yards for the past 7 or so years.
7. Favre - Best gunslinger in NFL history; incredible stat CV and played in 2 SBs (winning 1). May be a couple of spots higher if not for the high INT numbers.
8. Young - Would easily be in the top 5 if he didn't spend his first two career years in the USFL, then Tampa Bay and the first half of his NFL career backing up Montana. One of the best rushing QBs among the greats
9. Marino - Best release in NFL history along with Fouts. Best QB to never win the big game otherwise he would be in the top 5. You can blame Montana for his lack of success
10. Unitas - Gotta have one of the oldies in the top 10 so United should be the one.
Plenty of others who could easily be considered for spots 6-10 including Graham, Aikman, Bradshaw, Eli Manning, Fouts, Rothlisberger, Kelly, Tarkenton etc.
(I'm probably making a glaring omission which will result in me having to rearrange everything but this is just off the top of my head).
1. Brady - Won 5 Super Bowls (played in 7) and may soon be the stat king as well. Hard to argue against him as the best.
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2. Montana - A winner who led his team to 4 Super Bowls. Modest career stats among the best QBs, but 4 rings speak for themselves.
3. Manning - multiple Super Bowl winner and best career stats. Great professional. One of the rare QBs who was both great in college and the Pros.
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4. Elway - Won 2 Super Bowls (played in 5) and has a great stat resume. Gritty, passionate, great come from behind QB.
5. Rodgers - Super Bowl winner and owner of the best QB rating of all time, which counts for a lot
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6. Brees - Super Bowl winner and one the best stat CVs in NFL history. Most accurate passer in NFL history and may end up the stat king before its all said and done. Has average 5k yards for the past 7 or so years.
7. Favre - Best gunslinger in NFL history; incredible stat CV and played in 2 SBs (winning 1). May be a couple of spots higher if not for the high INT numbers.
8. Young - Would easily be in the top 5 if he didn't spend his first two career years in the USFL, then Tampa Bay and the first half of his NFL career backing up Montana. One of the best rushing QBs among the greats
9. Marino - Best release in NFL history along with Fouts. Best QB to never win the big game otherwise he would be in the top 5. You can blame Montana for his lack of success
10. Unitas - Gotta have one of the oldies in the top 10 so United should be the one.
Plenty of others who could easily be considered for spots 6-10 including Graham, Aikman, Bradshaw, Eli Manning, Fouts, Rothlisberger, Kelly, Tarkenton etc.
(I'm probably making a glaring omission which will result in me having to rearrange everything but this is just off the top of my head).
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I couldn't even do a top 5 from last year, I don't know how you guys can remember these things
If I'm not mistaken Wilson is close to the absolute best when you only consider the first six seasons, right?
Wilson will definitely be in the convo since he has already gone to 2 SBs and he currently has the 2nd highest rating of all time (which could obviously fluxuate wildly given that he's only been in the league for less than half a career). 10 years from now DeShaun Watson definitely.
Wilson has a shot at getting into the conversation. The others well they have a long way to go and a lot to achieve before they get there, too soon to even think about them that way.
Am I wrong if I say that Ryan's record is the most impressive when you consider the supporting cast?
Wins don't really mean that much though, it just tells you how good the system, coaches, and teammates are. Flacco is no. 2 ffs. Only one of your top-10 qb's is on that list. Isn't that proof enough?
Yeah Ryan is on a torrid stat pace. He's already on 41k yards and is only 32 years old. He will need to win the big game in order to be part of the upper pantheon chat though.
The list doesn't count for much in the GOAT discussions. Its just a way of looking at which QBs got off to the fastest career starts.
Yeah it's only being for the first 5 years so it really is not anything to bring into the discussion of GOAT and in fairness when you posted it you made no claim it did.
An article that looks at some of his other stats
https://www.fieldgulls.com/2017/1/6...ats-record-nfl-yards-touchdowns-interceptions
Again just the first 5 seasons.
The guy he quoted said Wilson is close to the best for a players first six seasons (fair comment). Then Raoul posted the wins stat, so I assumed he took that stat as reading who's the best? Sorry if that wasn't a logical conclusion.
Yeah that's not what I was suggesting at all. Just posting the tweet to confirm @JPRouve's question.
It's not on topic with your GOAT conversation but here you have a small attempt at analysing the first years of a QB(In that case Keenum) and what it can mean for his future.
https://www.dailynorseman.com/2017/12/5/16723942/vikings-making-a-better-case
https://www.dailynorseman.com/2017/12/5/16723942/vikings-making-a-better-case
What about Bortles?
What a game that would be!
Wrong end of the stick. Apologies.
He's been mentioned aa the 'next Elway' since high school. Never had the right combination of talent around him, either at Georgia or Detroit.
Detroit is where greatness goes to die.
its where youll go to die if you keep talking like that
Haha. I guess that's why these players are beholden to a draft system which can either make you or break you.
Unless of course you have the brass balls or complete cuntishness (depending on what way you look upon it) of a certain Eli Manning.
Blame Montana for Marino's lack of success? They only met once in a championship game. Marino's teams constantly failed in the AFC against better opposition - not San Francisco in the other conference.
Blame Shula and management for never providing a proper running game, bad drafting, etc. And the rise of the likes of the Broncos, Browns, Bills, and Bengals in the late 80s/early 90s.
Blame Shula and management for never providing a proper running game, bad drafting, etc. And the rise of the likes of the Broncos, Browns, Bills, and Bengals in the late 80s/early 90s.
Somewhat ironic, in this context at least, is that move started with Elway. Refused to play for the Colts, causing further drama in the notorious draft of '83.
Give me back Billy Sims and Barry Sanders.
Jim Kelly is a Bills legend and really is still Mr Buffalo Bill all but forgotten is how badly he wanted to go anywhere but Buffalo. Took off to the USFL hoping the Bills would trade his rights. Before that he made many public comments hating on the Bills and Buffalo before they drafted him.
Really good post and I agree with a lot of your comments.
I completely agree with what you said regarding Steve Young. This might sound contradictory, but whilst Montana is both my favourite QB ever and whom I consider to be the best, I think Young would actually rank as a more dangerous QB. I think it's safe to say you will never get as good a depth chart as the one the Niners had back then!
On a similar note, who would people have as their best RBs?
From a spectating perspective, I think it's hard to have anyone over Barry Sanders - absolutely incredible agility, balance and athleticism. But in addition to gaining a lot of yards (and would have overtaken Payton had he not retired when he did) he did also lose a lot of yards! For every highlight film, there was a play where he was tackled well behind the line. But you cannot deny the excitement of watching him run - and that he could do things that no other player could do.
So if I was crating a team and could chose any RB, my choices would in (in no particular order):
Walter Payton - held the rushing yardage record for a long time, extremely physical player and didn't really have a weakness
Jim Brown - slightly before my time, but an absolute beast of a player. I think he only played 9 seasons but was way out front in career rushing yards when he retired - and it took a long time for Payton to catch him. He also held the TD record until Rice broke it (I think) and his career yards per attempt is still among the best ever. He also averaged over 100 yards per game.
Roger Craig - not someone who appears on many best ever lists - and I know my 49ers bias is at work here...but I loved watching Craig. He was perhaps the first true multi-purpose back - as effective in the passing game as he was rushing. He was a perfect fit for Bill Walsh's west coast offense and he was the first player to gain 1000 yards receiving and 1000 yards rushing in a single season. Other multi-purpose backs have maybe got better career stats - such as Tomlinson, Faulk and Petersen, but Craig blazed the trail for them. And I loved his running style, high knees, eyes wide open as he hit the line of scrimmage.
Lots more that can be mentioned obviously, but they would be my personal faves.
From a spectating perspective, I think it's hard to have anyone over Barry Sanders - absolutely incredible agility, balance and athleticism. But in addition to gaining a lot of yards (and would have overtaken Payton had he not retired when he did) he did also lose a lot of yards! For every highlight film, there was a play where he was tackled well behind the line. But you cannot deny the excitement of watching him run - and that he could do things that no other player could do.
So if I was crating a team and could chose any RB, my choices would in (in no particular order):
Walter Payton - held the rushing yardage record for a long time, extremely physical player and didn't really have a weakness
Jim Brown - slightly before my time, but an absolute beast of a player. I think he only played 9 seasons but was way out front in career rushing yards when he retired - and it took a long time for Payton to catch him. He also held the TD record until Rice broke it (I think) and his career yards per attempt is still among the best ever. He also averaged over 100 yards per game.
Roger Craig - not someone who appears on many best ever lists - and I know my 49ers bias is at work here...but I loved watching Craig. He was perhaps the first true multi-purpose back - as effective in the passing game as he was rushing. He was a perfect fit for Bill Walsh's west coast offense and he was the first player to gain 1000 yards receiving and 1000 yards rushing in a single season. Other multi-purpose backs have maybe got better career stats - such as Tomlinson, Faulk and Petersen, but Craig blazed the trail for them. And I loved his running style, high knees, eyes wide open as he hit the line of scrimmage.
Lots more that can be mentioned obviously, but they would be my personal faves.
I can see Wilson ending up on that list. We don’t have enough data on Wentz or Jimmy G yet.
In terms of picking one to put on my team? Gale Sayers. Then Barry Sanders and the Juice.
Running back imo, is a position that can be split into two camps.
- Best all around running back : As in, the RB that did what RBs should do - run for a lot of yards, score a lot of TDs, play well over a protracted period of time and make a major contribution to team success. All things said I would have to go with Emmitt Smith.
- Best Pure Runner : As in the player who was the most exciting to watch over a protracted period of time - who was also great in the stat category then it would be Barry Sanders. The guy only played about 9 or 10 years, otherwise he would be at the top of most stat categories. He was probably better at cutbacks and juke moves than any other RB.
As an aside, the best athlete at RB that I've seen was Bo Jackson. There has never been that kind of combination of speed and power in the game before and since Bo's career. He was basically a 230lb running back with full back quality power and near Olympic quality speed.
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Fair point on Bo - guy was a phenomenon in the truest sense of the word! Such a shame that his injury cut short his career. I can't believe I forgot him - have even met him a couple of times!!
As for Smith, I was never a fan. Partly because he played for the Cowboys at a time when they were our biggest rivals, but I would take Payton over him in a heartbeat.
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