Neymar

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Bert_ said:
Both Ballon d'or and World Cup winners for one but the fact they spend the best part of their careers playing at a high level is enough for me. Neymar spending his best years playing part time for the football equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters has done him no favours. Apart from the mountain of cash of course!



I agree his lack of professionalism and drive was a detriment to his career and legacy. But it's the same critism I'd apply to Neymar. He took the easy option of a well paid party lifestyle in Paris over footballing achievments.

In terms of raw talent, I'd argue Ronaldinho is on a par with Messi in a lot of areas. Even better than him in terms of raw ball skills. The things that guy could do with a ball under pressure still baffle me. Not just in terms of his ball control, but his vision and ability to pick out a pass from seemingly nothing. Raw talent is only as good as your application of though at the end of the day.
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I mean this constant diminishing of Ligue 1 on here is getting annoying. It's not the Premier League, but some are talking about it as if it's the MLS or Saudi league. It's still a top league.

As for the 2nd bolded: It's interesting to use this angle, because one could counter with: he went to a worse team to try to challenge himself to be the main man in a team and lead them to glory.

As for the raw talent bit comparing Ronaldinho and Messi, I think you're inflating Ronaldinho's raw talent to Messi's level because of the higher level of 'flair' he had in his game. 'Raw ball skills' is rather irrelevant honestly. It doesn't matter if Ronaldinho can perform more freestyle skills than Messi can.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
I mean this constant diminishing of Ligue 1 on here is getting annoying. It's not the Premier League, but some are talking about it as if it's the MLS or Saudi league. It's still a top league.
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The drop off after the PL, Liga, SA and the Bundesliga to Ligue 1 is pretty massive. It's been that way for some time but PSG's utter dominance of it and their clear nonchalant attitude to it have made it practically pointless these days.

Eddy_JukeZ said:
As for the 2nd bolded: It's interesting to use this angle, because one could counter with: he went to a worse team to try to challenge himself to be the main man in a team and lead them to glory.
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What Glory has he lead them too? Has he done any better than Cavani or Ibra?

Eddy_JukeZ said:
As for the raw talent bit comparing Ronaldinho and Messi, I think you're inflating Ronaldinho's raw talent to Messi's level because of the higher level of 'flair' he had in his game. 'Raw ball skills' is rather irrelevant honestly. It doesn't matter if Ronaldinho can perform more freestyle skills than Messi can.
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Its opinion at the end of the day but I wasn't just referring to Ronaldinho's flair. His vision, his passing, the weight he could put on a ball. All stuff that are at least up there with Messi. I'm never gong to argue Ronaldinho was the equal to Messi all round, but my point was that he's nearer to that bracket than Neymar ever will be.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
I mean this constant diminishing of Ligue 1 on here is getting annoying. It's not the Premier League, but some are talking about it as if it's the MLS or Saudi league. It's still a top league.
As for the 2nd bolded: It's interesting to use this angle, because one could counter with: he went to a worse team to try to challenge himself to be the main man in a team and lead them to glory.
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I think you're missing an important point in Bert's post:

Bert_ said:
Neymar spending his best years playing part time
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Neymar played around 3800 minutes per season on average in his four years at Barcelona. At PSG he is playing 2380 minutes per season on average, 60% of the minutes he was getting at Barcelona. The most he's ever played for PSG in one season (2700 minutes) is lower than the least he ever played for Barcelona in one season (2800). You can say some of that is not his fault, that they were tackles, etc. but it's remarkably consistent. He's played between 2300-2400 minutes each of the last five seasons.

You say he tried to challenge himself and be the main man in a team and lead them to glory. Well, he completely and utterly failed at it. He has never been one of PSG's 5 most used players in a season. He has even failed to make it into the top 11 more than once. He's never been PSG's top goalscorer in a season and more often than not finishes 3rd.

He has been a part-time football player for the better part of the last 5 years and it should be a massive stain on his legacy.
 
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Bert_ said:
The drop off after the PL, Liga, SA and the Bundesliga to Ligue 1 is pretty massive. It's been that way for some time but PSG's utter dominance of it and their clear nonchalant attitude to it have made it practically pointless these days.



What Glory has he lead them too? Has he done any better than Cavani or Ibra?



Its opinion at the end of the day but I wasn't just referring to Ronaldinho's flair. His vision, his passing, the weight he could put on a ball. All stuff that are at least up there with Messi. I'm never gong to argue Ronaldinho was the equal to Messi all round, but my point was that he's nearer to that bracket than Neymar ever will be.
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I never said that. I said it was a rebuttal argument for his move to try to do so as the main man. And if he wasn't unlucky with injuries, perhaps they've won a CL title or made a few more finals.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I think you're missing an important point in Bert's post:



Neymar played around 3800 minutes per season on average in his four years at Barcelona. At PSG he is playing 2380 minutes per season on average, 60% of the minutes he was getting at Barcelona. The most he's ever played for PSG in one season (2700 minutes) is lower than the lowest he ever played for Barcelona in one season (2800).

You can say some of that is not his fault, that they were tackles, etc. but it's remarkably consistent. He's played between 2300-2400 minutes each of the last five seasons.
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If that was the point he was making, I don't disagree. His biggest problem at PSG is his inability to stay fit all of a sudden.
 
Why can a thread never be about what it's supposed to be? How many Ballon D'ors or how he ranks vs other players need their own thread.

I can't see him going anywhere other than Saudi as apparently they want £60/70m for him at 31... MLS or Saudi I reckon
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
I never said that. I said it was a rebuttal argument for his move to try to do so as the main man. And if he wasn't unlucky with injuries, perhaps they've won a CL title or made a few more finals.
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Neymar has had 6 seasons of the CL and made one final - with the easiest draw and one legged games during Covid. They’ve lost in the last 16 four out of six times. For someone supposed to be best in the world, even with injuries that’s so underwhelming. And you have to question his professionalism when he’s often over visiting his sister in Brazil around the time of the last 16.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
Neymar has had 6 seasons of the CL and made one final - with the easiest draw and one legged games during Covid. They’ve lost in the last 16 four out of six times. For someone supposed to be best in the world, even with injuries that’s so underwhelming. And you have to question his professionalism when he’s often over visiting his sister in Brazil around the time of the last 16.
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He's been injured for a lot of those CL ties and I never said he was the best in the world.

This has been debunked I'm pretty sure, and he's often injured for those ties either way.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
I never said that. I said it was a rebuttal argument for his move to try to do so as the main man. And if he wasn't unlucky with injuries, perhaps they've won a CL title or made a few more finals.
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You said he went to PSG to challenge himself, be the main man and lead them to glory. Has he achieved any of those things?
 
If he goes to Saudi Arabia now, that would be a pretty big dent to his legacy. He's way too good for that league still.
 
Bert_ said:
You said he went to PSG to challenge himself, be the main man and lead them to glory. Has he achieved any of those things?
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They achieved continued domestic glory and he'd been by far their best player until the past 2 seasons.

Did they achieve CL glory? No, but some of his injuries may have played in a part in that.

Do I think his move was successful overall? I'd say no, but it's mostly because of his inability to stay fit missing pivotal games.
 
Hes a great player no doubt.. But he has a face you would never tire of punching.

If he did sign for a PL club can u imagine how much crying and rolling about this lad would do
 
Bert_ said:
The drop off after the PL, Liga, SA and the Bundesliga to Ligue 1 is pretty massive. It's been that way for some time but PSG's utter dominance of it and their clear nonchalant attitude to it have made it practically pointless these days.
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I'm not disagreeing with you but PSG won the title for a single point this year and had to concede it twice in a decade... So the nonchalance is double edged (they also steamrolled it quite a few times, granted) so there's competition still, even if spotty. Moreso than Bundesliga going by this absolutely arbitrary metric...

The Caf gets a little extreme with the whole "farmer's league" thing, is all.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
They achieved continued domestic glory and he'd been by far their best player until the past 2 seasons.

Did they achieve CL glory? No, but some of his injuries may have played in a part in that.

Do I think his move was successful overall? I'd say no, but it's mostly because of his inability to stay fit missing pivotal games.
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Domestic glory to PSG is about as much value as winning a pre-season friendly tournament these days. The fact they failed to win the league twice in the past few years is either an embarrassment or a sign that they couldn't give a shit about anything domestic.

Not sure why you are so certain about Neymar being PSGs best player. I think Mbappe has overshadowed him during their time there. All opinion of course but to say "by far" is pushing it.
 
Plastic Evra said:
I'm not disagreeing with you but PSG won the title for a single point this year and had to concede it twice in a decade... So the nonchalance is double edged (they also steamrolled it quite a few times, granted) so there's competition still, even if spotty. Moreso than Bundesliga going by this absolutely arbitrary metric...

The Caf gets a little extreme with the whole "farmer's league" thing, is all.
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If it meant anything to them, they'd win it at a canter every year.
 
He has spent his best years in the French league, and has basically done nothing special since leaving Barcelona.

He's very talented, and had he had a bigger drive and a better injury record, he might have been an all time great.

But the way his career panned out, it just seems like a waste to me.

For me, I rate Kaka and Ronaldinho above him.
 
Bert_ said:
If it meant anything to them, they'd win it at a canter every year.
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Heeeeh I don't think it's so much motivation and will than the team being even more dysfunctional than usual in those years (plus one oppo getting a great season). We could argue semantics all day because at one point it's probably just circling back to unquantifiable (for us anyway) factors like ego management, locker room politics etc...

This season at least you can objectively point out to a structural imbalance issue, too weak a midfield to support the "dream" MNM trident (or two of them on the pitch...), an odd choice as head coach that predictably couldn't herd cats -I suppose the bosses just went "why not we didn't try that yet" or bet on his working relationship with the Sport Director-, etc...

Anyway, diverging from topic : I will agree with you that Mbappé is by far the best PSG player since he's been here. If only for injuries and availability, Neymar cannot really compete. Mbappé pretty much carried this hot mess to a title.

There's a trend of Neymar being (unfairly ?) prejudiced against and people downplaying his talent... I can't muster much sympathy for him and I think even a lot of PSG fans would agree with me there's some ambivalence to his contribution.

His numbers are excellent : He's the 4th highest goalscorer for PSG, 5th in assists... That's no small feat considering how many games he missed on injury. The lad has magic feet. But the meme of his vacations back to Brasil, perceived discipline issues, his attitude (very old and entrenched reputation as a diver) never made him favours. Also he's pretty much on free positioning on the pitch, you need a good working unit around him to compensate for that.

I wouldn't fancy the risk of bringing him in if I was Chelsea, in short.
 
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It amazes me that people rate Kaka over Neymar. The other names in here I can understand and many I agree with, but Kaka? I do admit I have always felt he's quite overrated, but I think this is a combination of him being overrated and Neymar being underrated.

Plastic Evra said:
Anyway, diverging from topic : I will agree with you that Mbappé is by far the best PSG player since he's been here. If only for injuries and availability, Neymar cannot really compete here. Mbappé pretty much carried this hot mess to a title.
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From what PSG fans were saying, Mbappe has only been better the last two seasons. Before that Neymar was still their best player.
 
Shit, didn't realise he was 31 already. He's one of those players who you know is a great footballer, but you question where the last 6 or so years have gone with them. I'm curious to know how he'll be regarded when people look back 10 or 20 years from now. My first thought is he'll be remembered for his work with Barcelona and for the cost of his move to PSG, rather than the time at PSG itself.
 
Isotope said:
If Chelsea could bring Neymar, that would be a major coup as that's exactly the type of player they need. Said it in Chelsea's thread, their current team is very workmanlike, and devoid creativity.
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I agree that Chelsea need creativity but think that should be addressed by bringing in a creative 10 to replace Mount rather than bringing in a drama queen like Neymar.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
Ronaldo
Pele
Ronaldinho
Rivaldo
Romario
Garrincha
Kaka
Zico
Cafu
Roberto Carlos

There's ten off the top of my head that history will remember as better players.
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Greater, yes. Better, no. I'd argue only Pele, R9, Ronaldinho were better. Neymar has been his own enemy with some bad decisions on and off the pitch, and also unlucky with injuries. In pure footballing terms, he is amazing.

The only 2 things I'd argue against signing him is his age and availability issues.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I think you're missing an important point in Bert's post:



Neymar played around 3800 minutes per season on average in his four years at Barcelona. At PSG he is playing 2380 minutes per season on average, 60% of the minutes he was getting at Barcelona. The most he's ever played for PSG in one season (2700 minutes) is lower than the least he ever played for Barcelona in one season (2800). You can say some of that is not his fault, that they were tackles, etc. but it's remarkably consistent. He's played between 2300-2400 minutes each of the last five seasons.

You say he tried to challenge himself and be the main man in a team and lead them to glory. Well, he completely and utterly failed at it. He has never been one of PSG's 5 most used players in a season. He has even failed to make it into the top 11 more than once. He's never been PSG's top goalscorer in a season and more often than not finishes 3rd.

He has been a part-time football player for the better part of the last 5 years and it should be a massive stain on his legacy.
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Didn’t he become a poker player too? Seems he developed variety of interests apart from his football.
 
Bert_ said:
Both Ballon d'or and World Cup winners for one but the fact they spend the best part of their careers playing at a high level is enough for me. Neymar spending his best years playing part time for the football equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters has done him no favours. Apart from the mountain of cash of course!



I agree his lack of professionalism and drive was a detriment to his career and legacy. But it's the same critism I'd apply to Neymar. He took the easy option of a well paid party lifestyle in Paris over footballing achievments.

In terms of raw talent, I'd argue Ronaldinho is on a par with Messi in a lot of areas. Even better than him in terms of raw ball skills. The things that guy could do with a ball under pressure still baffle me. Not just in terms of his ball control, but his vision and ability to pick out a pass from seemingly nothing. Raw talent is only as good as your application of though at the end of the day.
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I really really rate Ronaldinho but at no point was he as good as peak Messi at the meaningful stuff like the final pass, dribbling and goalscoring. At ball skills, he was spectacular.
 
mshnsh said:
Greater, yes. Better, no. I'd argue only Pele, R9, Ronaldinho were better. Neymar has been his own enemy with some bad decisions on and off the pitch, and also unlucky with injuries. In pure footballing terms, he is amazing.

The only 2 things I'd argue against signing him is his age and availability issues.
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And his position for me.
 
Neymar is held in extremely high regard in Brazil. The amount of pressure he has been under to deliver for Seleção since he became their major player has been second to none (with the peak in 2014). The biggest dent in his legacy comes from him playing in the worst years for their NT in terms of quality available and thus unable to really deliver trophies on the big stages (apart from 2019 Copa) like those usually occupying a Brazil top ten. I'd easily take him over Kaká and Rivaldo, but the latter actually was integral to deliver a WC, albeit in a historically strong team. Talent-wise probably on par with Ronaldinho, albeit way less likeable.
 
mshnsh said:
I really really rate Ronaldinho but at no point was he as good as peak Messi at the meaningful stuff like the final pass, dribbling and goalscoring. At ball skills, he was spectacular.
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No he wasn't anywhere close to peak Messi overall. No one has been. In terms of pure talent, he could match up to Messi in a lot of areas but not the most important one i.e. putting the ball in the net. And yeah, probably dribbling too. He had the perfect frame for it. Passing I'm 50/50 on. Maybe I'm being nostalgic because Ronaldinho made more hollywood passes than the more simple (but incredibly effective) ones Messi made.
 
ErikElevenHag said:
Not sure how you've worked that out. I've not said anywhere about Neymar and have no desire for us to sign him.

I was pointing out how pointless the point you made was, which you had nothing to say about.
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Balon dor is the premier individual accolate that a player can win. Kaka 07, Ronaldinho 05, Rivaldo 99, Ronaldo 97, all won the accolade at the peak of their footballing careers. Their individual seasons being better than anything Neymar has done (when not being a hanger on under peak Messi). Neymar hasnt won a balon ndor Nor has he won a world cup with brasil, unlike the others listed who have.

Michael Owen, who you hold in such contempt won a treble with liverpool that seaon: league cup, fa cup and uefa cup and scored 28 goals. It may have been a poor season for contenders that year. Regardless Neymar for all his vaunted talent, has won 0 balon dor, 0 world cups and wasted his peak years chasing money rather than trophies.

#Wasted potential
 
MadDogg said:
It amazes me that people rate Kaka over Neymar. The other names in here I can understand and many I agree with, but Kaka? I do admit I have always felt he's quite ove
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Kaka was a wonderful player in the few brief years he was at his prime at AC Milan, easily one of my favorite non Utd player of the last 20 years. I would take peak Kaka ahead of Neymar everyday. But i can also understand how you can justifiably make your point as Real Madrid Kaka was , well, rubbish and I prefer to just forget that part of his career.
 
mshnsh said:
I really really rate Ronaldinho but at no point was he as good as peak Messi at the meaningful stuff like the final pass, dribbling and goalscoring. At ball skills, he was spectacular.
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It's the same for Neymar to be honest. I'm sure he'll be revered after he's retired. Has Ronaldinho's flair and near-Messi production combined with Ronaldo's likeability. He's a greater footballer than Ronaldinho though in my opinion though (and Ronaldinho's probably one of my favourite players to have watched ever).
 
The Neymar disrespect is even weirder because most people can't even be arsed watching him apart from a handful of matches all season and then form their views based on that.
 
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