Next United Manager: Pep Guardiola?

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sunama said:
So, just to summarise what you are saying:

Moyes was moderately successful with a medium size club (Everton), but failed with the big club.
So some think it would be a fantastic idea to appoint a man who has absolutely no experience of management and put him in charge of the big club?
Are people serious?

That's like me running a courier company, so I hired a driver who could drive a small car, but when I gave him a big car he couldn't drive it.
So now, I decide that I will hire a driver who can't even drive a small car and hope he can drive a big car.

This thread is quite entertaining...:lol:
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It's fecking bizarre isn't it. The argument seems to be that Giggs has is a load of largely underwhelming factors going for him, most of which several other people have, but none quite have as many irrelevant qualities as he does, which makes him the standout candidate.

He's been assistant manager at United. He's been at the club many years so knows it through and through. He's played under a great manager in Ferguson so must have learnt a lot from him.

Of course so much of that applies to the likes of Mike Phelan, Carlos Quieroz, Scholes, Neville, Ferdinand, Steve Bruce and should all have a claim to the job on this basis but none of them have all these indicators of greatness that Giggs possesses..
 
Dominos said:
It's fecking bizarre isn't it. The argument seems to be that Giggs has is a load of largely underwhelming factors going for him, most of which several other people have, but none quite have as many irrelevant qualities as he does, which makes him the standout candidate.

He's been assistant manager at United. He's been at the club many years so knows it through and through. He's played under a great manager in Ferguson so must have learnt a lot from him.

Of course so much of that applies to the likes of Mike Phelan, Carlos Quieroz, Scholes, Neville, Ferdinand, Steve Bruce and should all have a claim to the job on this basis but none of them have all these indicators of greatness that Giggs possesses..
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It just comes down to Identity. Some prefer United's next manager to come from the United ethos/ecosystem. I'd personally love to see this as well, but sadly we don't have an experienced candidate who is up for the job. This is why its best for Giggsy go out and prove himself, and if he is indeed good enough, appointing him later will be widely supported. Conversely, appointing him after LvG when its clear it would be a highly controversial appointment from the get go, would only result in immense pressure that he is simply not ready for.
 
Raoul said:
It just comes down to Identity. Some prefer United's next manager to come from the United ethos/ecosystem. I'd personally love to see this as well, but sadly we don't have an experienced candidate who is up for the job. This is why its best for Giggsy go out and prove himself, and if he is indeed good enough, appointing him later will be widely supported. Conversely, appointing him after LvG when its clear it would be a highly controversial appointment from the get go, would only result in immense pressure that he is simply not ready for.
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But why is it ok for Barca to hire Pep from the get go and not United to hire Giggs. I could argue Pep might never be where he is if he had to prove himself with Sunderland....
 
sunama said:
So, just to summarise what you are saying:

Moyes was moderately successful with a medium size club (Everton), but failed with the big club.
So some think it would be a fantastic idea to appoint a man who has absolutely no experience of management and put him in charge of the big club?
Are people serious?

That's like me running a courier company, so I hired a driver who could drive a small car, but when I gave him a big car he couldn't drive it.
So now, I decide that I will hire a driver who can't even drive a small car and hope he can drive a big car.

This thread is quite entertaining...:lol:
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Wow, how patronising.

Your analogy falls down because you assume that the only difference in United and say somewhere like Sunderland is the size; small car versus big car. United is so unique in terms of money, staff, level of players, the goals of these players, the facilities, the fan base and their expectations, global reach etc. so if we use your courier analogy its like DHL hiring someone to fly their aeroplane but only on the condition that they can first prove they can cycle a bike.

Giggs has his coaching badges and knows United inside out. IF they hire him it will because he has displayed an aptitude and an ability to manage the team day to day. I also said that I think his experience of being with the club for over 20 years and serving under SAF and LVG will stand to him but it would not mean he would walk in and do a great job at Bayern. People outside the club struggle to understand the workings of it, hence Moyes failed before he even started. Giggs has that knowledge and experience of how the club works so already is a better candidate than most.

I am not saying he is the right person for the job but I don't believe he will be any more qualified to manage United by spending time at a lesser club. As I have said, I think Pep is the logical successor for United and second choice would probably be Ancelotti followed by Simeone but if you're not picking from the elite (because they are not available) then Giggs would be a better choice than most.
 
RedorDead21 said:
But why is it ok for Barca to hire Pep from the get go and not United to hire Giggs. I could argue Pep might never be where he is if he had to prove himself with Sunderland....
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Barca never hired pep from the get go lol.

Even he had to manage the reserve side among other things and yet some people in here would let giggs go through with 0 experience in management of any club let alone one of this size. It really is bizarre.

United cannot take anymore risks in trying to find a manager that can emulate Fergie's success. That is the main reason people want giggs even if they deny, they think he will be fergie 2.0 and embody everything he stood for because he trained under him aka "the united way".

There are world class managers out there and they may be available, let united have a few years of stability at the top before we look to a risk like Giggs.

We still aren't on top yet.
 
Can we stop with the whole Giggs/Guardiola comparisons? Guardiola had a very different route to the top job compared to the one Giggs potentially will have. Guardiola was taking charge of a club that had an already long standing style of play in place, one that no manager will deviate massively from. The two clubs in question here are different. Barcelona can be a very ruthless club with a manager not doing a particularly good job. Fail to win a piece of meaningful silverware, out you go. United don't strike me as that type of club.
 
The only time I'd be happy with us appointing Giggs would be if a truly world class assistant manager was brought in to work with him. A Carlos Queiroz style tactical master that's been there and done it all before.
 
3rdCarter said:
Barca never hired pep from the get go lol.

Even he had to manage the reserve side among other things and yet some people in here would let giggs go through with 0 experience in management of any club let alone one of this size. It really is bizarre.

United cannot take anymore risks in trying to find a manager that can emulate Fergie's success. That is the main reason people want giggs even if they deny, they think he will be fergie 2.0 and embody everything he stood for because he trained under him aka "the united way".

There are world class managers out there and they may be available, let united have a few years of stability at the top before we look to a risk like Giggs.

We still aren't on top yet.
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Exactly my thoughts,we need stability right now before going with Giggs.
 
GBBQ said:
Your analogy falls down because you assume that the only difference in United and say somewhere like Sunderland is the size; small car versus big car. United is so unique in terms of money, staff, level of players, the goals of these players, the facilities, the fan base and their expectations, global reach etc.
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You say its about something more than big club versus little club. But then you cite a load more factors, and all of them are just factors that determine the size of the club. How are any of these factors you mention unique to United?

money - we have a lot of it because we're a big club.
staff - not sure what you mean by this, more staff? Higher quality or more experienced staff? Whatever, we have the staff we have because we're a big club.
level of players - we have - in theory at least - good players. Because we're a big club.
the goals of these players - good players set themselves bigger goals.
the facilities - big clubs have better facilities.
the fan base and their expectations - big clubs have more fans who have higher expectations.
global reach - something big clubs have.

"etc" here just means finding more examples of how we are a big club but these are not all completely unrelated factors and they are not unique to us at all, these are things managers of all big clubs have to contend with, and anyone who had proved themselves with another big club would be a strong candidate to come in and handle those pressures here.
 
Adebesi said:
You say its about something more than big club versus little club. But then you cite a load more factors, and all of them are just factors that determine the size of the club. How are any of these factors you mention unique to United?

money - we have a lot of it because we're a big club.
staff - not sure what you mean by this, more staff? Higher quality or more experienced staff? Whatever, we have the staff we have because we're a big club.
level of players - we have - in theory at least - good players. Because we're a big club.
the goals of these players - good players set themselves bigger goals.
the facilities - big clubs have better facilities.
the fan base and their expectations - big clubs have more fans who have higher expectations.
global reach - something big clubs have.

"etc" here just means finding more examples of how we are a big club but these are not all completely unrelated factors and they are not unique to us at all, these are things managers of all big clubs have to contend with, and anyone who had proved themselves with another big club would be a strong candidate to come in and handle those pressures here.
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Yes but he summed up all those different facets as simply being the difference between driving a small car versus a big car when its obviously much more nuanced than that.

None of these factors are unique to United but having a full set is reserved for an elite few and definitely not something you will learn about at somewhere like Sunderland.
 
Bring in this guy and give him £150m to spend. We will achieve big things.
 
Number one complaint about LVG is the lack of direct football. He would get abuse for that performance by Bayern tonight.

Is Guardiola really the answer after LVG?
 
MarkC said:
Number one complaint about LVG is the lack of direct football. He would get abuse for that performance by Bayern tonight.

Is Guardiola really the answer after LVG?
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Nobody is the answer. What is the question even? For me, it is what kind of footballing style we want to play and how we want to approach our games and how we want to be recognized or known. When we can agree on that, we can identify the manager that fits the best. If the only criteria is success, I am afraid for a club that calls itself the biggest and with the financial resources we possess, that is simply not enough in my opinion.

I don't like this notion of calling styles possession or counter attacking or whatever. I look at football managers as ones with clearly defined ideas on how they want the team to play (Van Gaal, Guardiola, Wenger, Klopp) and others who come in and try to get personnel and a short term strategy to help them most win (Mourinho, Ancelotti, Capello, Rafa, Simeone). I happen to favour the former as I think a big club should have a befitting image, I think it is as important as actually winning especially if you are going to call yourself the biggest. Klopp seems to be out of the question now that he is at Liverpool which leaves Guardiola or and upcoming manager who we think can give us that identity. I am prepared to gamble on that unless we are in a dire desperate situation by the time we make the appointment. In that case, I would vouch for a short term manager to simply put us back on the map.
 
Theonas said:
Nobody is the answer. What is the question even? For me, it is what kind of footballing style we want to play and how we want to approach our games and how we want to be recognized or known. When we can agree on that, we can identify the manager that fits the best. If the only criteria is success, I am afraid for a club that calls itself the biggest and with the financial resources we possess, that is simply not enough in my opinion.

I don't like this notion of calling styles possession or counter attacking or whatever. I look at football managers as ones with clearly defined ideas on how they want the team to play (Van Gaal, Guardiola, Wenger, Klopp) and others who come in and try to get personnel and a short term strategy to help them most win (Mourinho, Ancelotti, Capello, Rafa, Simeone). I happen to favour the former as I think a big club should have a befitting image, I think it is as important as actually winning especially if you are going to call yourself the biggest. Klopp seems to be out of the question now that he is at Liverpool which leaves Guardiola or and upcoming manager who we think can give us that identity. I am prepared to gamble on that unless we are in a dire desperate situation by the time we make the appointment. In that case, I would vouch for a short term manager to simply put us back on the map.
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I think the majority of complaints I hear are based on the fact people wants the type of football Sir Alex had us playing at times.

I'm all for LVG and his possesion football as I believe it will achieve the performances and success we are looking for. It seems strange though that so many comments I read are craving the day LVG is replaced with Guardiola as if it is going to change the style.

So the question would be what is he going to bring that LVG won't?
 
Guardiola's teams press a lot higher and faster than LVG's that's the main deference. Also Pep allows abit more positional flexibility to find space. In the direction we are going, Pep is the only choice to take us foward in my opinion.
 
MarkC said:
I think the majority of complaints I hear are based on the fact people wants the type of football Sir Alex had us playing at times.

I'm all for LVG and his possesion football as I believe it will achieve the performances and success we are looking for. It seems strange though that so many comments I read are craving the day LVG is replaced with Guardiola as if it is going to change the style.

So the question would be what is he going to bring that LVG won't?
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Yea you are probably right about fans wanting Sir Alex's style back. The thing is as far as I am concerned, we did not really have a style. We were a team that played like any other British team with fast wingers, box to box midfielders and a couple of men up front. We just happened to have been the best at it. Add to that the fact that we have a crazy winning mentality which meant we produced so many comebacks. Thrilling, yes but that drama is often mistaken for some intentional style of football. AC Milan under Sacchi had a style, Wenger's Arsenal have a style, the famous Ajax sides, the late Barcelona side and maybe the current Bayern one. The rest are a mishmash of what you have available to you, financial resources and make the best out of it. Just to clarify, this is not meant as a criticism per se. It is just frustrating when people make it out like we played with some grand vision and philosophy when every other team in Britian was playing the same way. I loved it as much as anyone but it was not a style that Fergie built for us.
 
For me everything points towards van gaal being here to rebuild the club. His complete history after ajax is about rebuilding sides that have deviated away from there usually high standards of football.

Im one of the few that gives alot of praise to LVG over barcelonas and bayerns performances because in my eyes- he was the start of something special.

Whether it be guardiola, rijkaard hoeness or giggs, you cant just come and manage a team derailed from glory easily. Van gaal puts that straight.

From a straight UTD team built under LVG, i dont see the necessity to move to guardiola.

Are we trying to become the next barcelona because the next bayern aren't looking anywhere near that level thus far. What we need is a brave manager after LVG who modifies the basics of what we see now.

LVG is too stubborn to do it himself.
 
RedorDead21 said:
But why is it ok for Barca to hire Pep from the get go and not United to hire Giggs. I could argue Pep might never be where he is if he had to prove himself with Sunderland....
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Yep. Managing big teams who are expected to win always and managing the big reputations is basically a completely different job to managing a small mid table team. I wouldn't be surprised if managers like Wenger and Guardiola failed if they tried to implement their tactics at shit teams who have to grind out wins. Pulis/Pardew are probably better at transforming a relegation threatened team into a solid mid table one then the majority of big name managers you see. Just different things are required at those clubs. Giggs is more prepared to take over United then Moyes ever was IMO, as he's come through the system and spent his whole career here, and has played under Sir Alex for so long, got his coaching badges, and has been assistant to Van Gaal. He knows what works, what doesn't, and what is expected at the club. That's why I never understood the "let him prove himself elsewhere" talk. How would taking over a relegation threatened side and grinding them to safety through whatever means possible translate into managing a title challenging side?

Anyway, onto Pep, he's the logical progression from Van Gaal, similar style, just expanding on it a bit probably and giving more attacking freedom/less positionally strict then Van Gaal is. I think we'll go for Giggs to take over though.
 
Adisa said:
Guardiola's teams press a lot higher and faster than LVG's that's the main deference. Also Pep allows abit more positional flexibility to find space. In the direction we are going, Pep is the only choice to take us foward in my opinion.
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Agreed. It makes the most sense. Under Van Gaal he'll lay foundations for a possession orientated team and its already visible now. To then deviate completely and hire a manager who plays the game another way would be stupid. If Guardiola is available when Van Gaal leaves then he has to be first choice in my opinion.
 
Even though they where beaten today they still played some fantastic stuff. That first 30 minutes I was in awe watch them.
 
Thought his subs were a bit poor, no real need for the re-shifting of the whole midfield when things were going perfectly well.

But in terms of their performance and style of play they are class to watch and well-drilled.

There's quite a clear similarity in the current setup though:

Lewandowski
Costa----------Muller
Vidal Thiago
Xabi

-"Reek"
Martial----------Mata
Morgan Herrera
Bastian​
 
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No thanks. Teams are getting better at passing the ball from the back and that's going to hurt any team that plays the pep way off the ball. He hasn't really shown any flexibility in terms of how his team play off the ball. To think you can keep every team 'in their half' for the whole game is naïve imo.
 
RedorDead21 said:
But why is it ok for Barca to hire Pep from the get go and not United to hire Giggs. I could argue Pep might never be where he is if he had to prove himself with Sunderland....
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Because Pep is clearly a very intelligent and articulate man. He was also one of those footballers who was very tactically aware on out on the pitch and was capable of completely controlling a game of football. All of those factors combined made him a good candidate.

I see none of those qualities in Giggs and in fact my big worry is if we do end up with Giggs all van Gaal's good work will be undone and we will be heading back to the footballing stone age. He would be an unmitigated disaster and we shouldn't even be discussing it as an option
 
When the time comes, if LvG and the United hierarchy believe that Giggs can do the job, he'll get it. If not, not. There's no way that we, outside the club, can have any depth of knowledge of Giggs's abilities or lack thereof. If he's considered suitable for the job, there's no reason to assume he'd take us back to "the footballing stone age" - indeed there's every reason to assume that he wouldn't. (Just as a matter of interest, was "the footballing stone age" the period when we won all those trophies with SAF as our manager?) I'd personally be more worried about who he appointed as his assistant and whether the rest of the coaching staff stayed on. A general exodus would not be a good sign.
 
Adisa said:
Guardiola's teams press a lot higher and faster than LVG's that's the main deference. Also Pep allows abit more positional flexibility to find space. In the direction we are going, Pep is the only choice to take us foward in my opinion.
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He failed to take Bayern forward so far, and the squad was in much better shape than the current United squad, he took Bayern backward. He needs technically very very gifted players, and then moves the ball around until a gap opens up and they score, after which a lot of gaps open up and they score a lot. Very effective against lesser sides, very ineffective against good sides and equal sides. Another CL-disaster for him like in the last 2 seasons, and he'll probably be looking for a job, but if Bayern isn't the job he's good at, United will certainly not be either.
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
He failed to take Bayern forward so far, and the squad was in much better shape than the current United squad, he took Bayern backward. He needs technically very very gifted players, and then moves the ball around until a gap opens up and they score, after which a lot of gaps open up and they score a lot. Very effective against lesser sides, very ineffective against good sides and equal sides. Another CL-disaster for him like in the last 2 seasons, and he'll probably be looking for a job, but if Bayern isn't the job he's good at, United will certainly not be either.
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I'm not sure how you can take a team that won every major trophy the previous year 'forward', though. And considering no team has ever won consecutive CL's it was always going to be incredibly difficult to repeat the treble for him.

Should definitely have done better last year but they were ravaged by injuries, in fairness.
 
bosnian_red said:
I wouldn't be surprised if managers like Wenger and Guardiola failed if they tried to implement their tactics at shit teams who have to grind out wins.
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Well Wenger managed Nagoya Grampus in Japan before Arsenal. They may well be a fairly good team in Japan for all I know, though they have not been dominant in terms of winning league titles. Whatever it is, its a far cry from being parachuted into a tier one club on the basis of very little. Wenger proved himself before he got the Arsenal job.
 
Cina said:
I'm not sure how you can take a team that won every major trophy the previous year 'forward', though. And considering no team has ever won consecutive CL's it was always going to be incredibly difficult to repeat the treble for him.

Should definitely have done better last year but they were ravaged by injuries, in fairness.
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And the year before? There's a pattern, as convincing as his team beats lesser opposition, they get hammered by sides they're supposed to be equal to, and even lesser but relatively closely matched sides like Arsenal, Wolfsburg and Dortmund can beat them.

Obviously he's a very good manager, because his team plays exactly like he wants them to play and it is a very difficult way to play. He succeeds with his training methods and tactics. The problem is that the resulting style of play doesn't work, it doesn't give them an advantage over their equals, but a disadvantage. At least it didn't work the last two years, and I don't think it's going to work this year because the style itself is the problem.
 
Dr. Funkenstein said:
And the year before? There's a pattern, as convincing as his team beats lesser opposition, they get hammered by sides they're supposed to be equal to, and even lesser but relatively closely matched sides like Arsenal, Wolfsburg and Dortmund can beat them.

Obviously he's a very good manager, because his team plays exactly like he wants them to play and it is a very difficult way to play. He succeeds with his training methods and tactics. The problem is that the resulting style of play doesn't work, it doesn't give them an advantage over their equals, but a disadvantage. At least it didn't work the last two years, and I don't think it's going to work this year because the style itself is the problem.
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The year before they won the Bundesliga (while finishing with a point total that was 1 short of the all time record), scored 94 goals, had a goal difference of +71, won the DFB Pokal final vs Borussia Dortmund, and lost to the eventual winners in the semi-final of the Champions League. His teams don't get hammered by equal oppositions. Arsenal winning a couple of freak games does not suggest a pattern. In Pep's first season, they beat Arsenal 3-1 on aggregate. Wenger's team can have good results against the best teams around, not just Bayern Munich.

Even in the season when they won the treble under Heyneckes, Arsenal beat them 2-0 at the Allianz Arena, and Bayern barely scraped through in the Round 16. They dropped points at Dortmund, Monchengladbach, lost to Leverkusen, all teams that one would put at the top of the Bundesliga. So the pattern extends to even the season when they won the treble. How is he supposed to take a treble winning team forward? Win it every season? He won the domestic double in the season you are talking about, and reached the semi-finals of the Champions League, where they lost to eventual winners Madrid in a weird tie. No manager, no matter how good he is, can win the treble every year.

Pep is super versatile. If the tactics don't work, he will change them, evidenced by him tweaking the system on a weekly basis. He is not going to uproot his core philosophy, and reinvent it from the basics. Even Fergie didn't change his gung-ho style of play until the early 2000s, and the defeat to Real Madrid. Great managers don't fix things that aren't necessarily broken. The style is not a problem, too much is being extrapolated from a couple of results, and they were missing some key players, including Robben - who is arguably their best player, as well as Ribery. That's like taking out Messi and Suarez from the Barcelona team; or Ronaldo and Modric from Real Madrid. Teams will suffer when their best players are out.
 
Its as if his Bayern team didn't just break a record for consecutive wins. Lets see how they do this season before we jump all over Pep. He now has a team in his image, lets see what they can do.
 
I think what you really have to credit Pep for is how well he made the transition from the treble winning team to what they have now. Rebuilding an aging team isn't always easy and Pep made that happen at Bayern without them losing quality so far. Like others have said taking Bayern beyond what they achieved in their record, breaking treble winning season is basically impossible but he managed to keep them about at the same level. Their dominance in the league is unbroken and winning all the cup competitions, national and continental, every year just isn't really possible but even under Pep it was at least the semis every year albeit he got beaten badly by Real and Barca in two successive CL campaigns which so far IMO is really the only black spot on his tenure with Bayern.
 
NoLogo said:
I think what you really have to credit Pep for is how well he made the transition from the treble winning team to what they have now. Rebuilding an aging team isn't always easy and Pep made that happen at Bayern without them losing quality so far. Like others have said taking Bayern beyond what they achieved in their record, breaking treble winning season is basically impossible but he managed to keep them about at the same level. Their dominance in the league is unbroken and winning all the cup competitions, national and continental, every year just isn't really possible but even under Pep it was at least the semis every year albeit he got beaten badly by Real and Barca in two successive CL campaigns which so far IMO is really the only black spot on his tenure with Bayern.
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Moyes also got a home leg draw vs them.
 
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