I don't think you're wrong at all. More and more people understand that it's unrealistic to expect one man to replicate what Sir Alex did over. For me personally, I never wanted Mourinho here and it was not for the length of his stay or his personality as I actually think he is a very entertaining character and particularly love his winding up tactics to Wenger and Benitez. However, I really really do not want Manchester United's main characteristic to be a solid team. I don't want to us to be a purely reactive team any time we play a half decent opposition. Mourinho is not interested in building an expressive a team with a clear defined style, he is interested in winning even if it meant not kicking a ball. Whereas I enjoy watching his teams frustrating Europe's aristocracy like Barcelona, I consider us part of that elite and therefore we should be the one others are trying to frustrate and not vice versa.
- Status
I would rather see Moyes back than Guardiola. I think the 3 : 1 game tonight shows how lucky he was to actually win all that stuff with Barca. If Messi didnt exist, I doubt he would win one league, let alone 2 CLs...
Will be interesting to see what happens with Pep at Bayern if he goes out to Porto. Especially after getting mauled by Real Madrid last season.
Poor mans Van Gaal
In all seriousness, Barcelona won the league in 12/13 with basically no manager (when Vilanova was ill). It says a lot
In all seriousness, Barcelona won the league in 12/13 with basically no manager (when Vilanova was ill). It says a lot
The goals Bayern conceded scream a team having it too easy in their domestic league, the pace of the game seemed too much for them.
If Guardiola does not win the CL with Bayern, giving how they seem to stroll through their league, will his tenure there be considered a relative failure?
If Guardiola does not win the CL with Bayern, giving how they seem to stroll through their league, will his tenure there be considered a relative failure?
Where's the white text?
I'd say so. No disrespect the Bundesliga but he should be winning the league every year with them comfortably. They should probably take the German cup too. They got destroyed last season by Madrid and if they go out to Porto, that doesn't look good at all. Maybe he doesn't have to win it, but he needs to get to another semi-final/final without getting destroyed or losing to a considerably weaker team.
I agree that people should be questioning him more, he's been incredibly fortunate with the teams and players he's inherited. Let's not write off his achievements but he's never really had to rebuild a team.
Probably. Although he was on mission impossible really. I doubt if Heynckes could have replicated that success they had in 12/13. Only way was down.
I can see where you are coming from mate but i think you also have to take into account how many managers have left Bayern and Barca especially in similar circumstances to you describe in the last 20 years.
Before United LVG has had 5 club jobs and as far as i know he left Ajax, Barca (the first time) and AZ on good terms so 3 out of 5 isn't too bad. Except for Ferguson pretty much every top coach has one or two sackings under their belt or has left a club under acrimonious circumstances.
Bar an absolute shocking campaign next season (dropping down to 6th-10th) i doubt LVG will be getting sacked. And unlike Bayern and Barca the board will not interfere with or undermine his position. So its highly likely he will be here for at least the length of his 3 year contract and longer if he is successful.
I like this guy.Pep won 2 UCL. Barca under Tito gave the worst performance a team ever gave on semi finals of UCL. Losing 7-0 to Bayern.
Pep in UCL with Barca once lost in away goals and once on aggregate 3-2. Big difference.
Not true though is it? He had to rebuild that Barca team when he took over.
If LVG wins trophies, I have no doubt the club and the man will come together to agree an extension. And why not? We're starting to look like a bloody good fit for each other. Do rate guardiola though - 2 cl final victories over fergie ain't bad - and think he may fancy the job in the future too.
They can easily turn that over in the second leg but that air of invincibility they carried a couple of seasons ago in Europe is long gone.
Pep also got whopped 5-0 on aggregate by Madrid last season.
People are going to go overboard in their criticism of him. From what I've heard his squad has been hit hard by injuries this season.
Yep, though not as a Barca manager.
I found always weird how people say that Pep had so easy at Barca, when we saw how Barca heavily regressed after his departure.
He's won two champions leagues in something like 6 or 7 seasons in management. He's going to lose many in between his next wins (if he ever wins it again). The record is 3 ffs.
So none of you critics has something to say about the 13(!) first team players he had at his disposal tonight?
I still expect them to hammer Porto in the return fixture.
Forget the regression after his departure, he was walking into a demoralized shell of a club in 2008.
This tie is far from over. Bayern can win 2-0 at home. The 2012-13 CL winning Bayern team lost 0-2 to Arsenal and went through on away goals rule.
This tie is miles from over. 2-0 Bayern win and they go through. When a Pep team wins, it's all down to the players. When his team loses it's all his fault seemingly, and nothing to do with his players not performing.
It would be interesting to see how Guardiola does when Bayern needs rebuilding soon if he stays there for a while. Even if they have a lot of talent, it won't be easy to replace players like Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Ribery and Robben.
I'm not sure that's entirely true. Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Messi, et al were there already. Add in the fact gap in resources between Barcelona and everyone but Real Madrid, it wasn't a particularly arduous task.
I think he accomplished more in refining a golden generation coming through than laying any ground work.
Ill just copy paste from another thread.
Guardiola deserves a ton of credit for building that team. When he came in Barcelona had just finished 17 points behind Real Madrid and had barely qualified for Champions League. He immediately got rid of half the seniors, for which he was highly criticized at the time - Ronaldinho, Deco, Thuram, Zambrotta, Edmilson etc all sold off. He promoted Busquets, brought in Alves, Keita, Pique and gave Iniesta a fixed position on the left, who had been utilized as more of a handy man up till then. He also got Henry to perform who hadn't had a good first season. In his first year they won every trophy in club football. I hear people say their grandmorther would have won with that team but what they forget is Pep built that team with his own hands which required taking some ballsy big decisions for which he took a lot of heat in the beginning. He also got them to play like never before, tiki taka with pressing tactics.
They finished behind a Real Madrid that had not made it out of the last 16 of the CL in 4 years. David Beckham was one of their best players in the 07/08 run in, that's how bad Real (and Barcelona by default) were
Beckham left Real for LA in 2007.
Ooops. That's right.
That Real team humiliated Barcelona after the latter gave the former a guard of honor at the Bernabau.
Barca finished 18 points below Madrid for sure but it wouldn't be accurate to talk about a "demoralized shell of a club". The same Barca side also pinned arguably Fergie's greatest team back in a CL semi-final at Old Trafford, separated only by a Paul Scholes wonder strike. Would you say Ancelotti took over a "demoralized shell of a club"? In Mourinho' last season they finished what? 15 points below Barca and got tonked 1-4 by Dortmund and lost the domestic Cup final at home to Atletico. 1 season later they won the CL. Obviously that Mourinho season had more to do with dressing room disharmony more than anything else. Similar with Barca in Rijkaard's last season when Ronaldinho was more interested in partying than training. The potential was obviously always there and even the playing style was already there. Spain already won a major European Cup playing "tiki taka" with Xavi being the player of the tournament before Guardiola took over. So Guardiola didn't turn shit into gold. He brought discipline and workrate, which was his major achievement for me.
On the other hand he's also not some random lucky dude who tells 11 world class players to go out and play. He clearly knows what he is doing, is capable of organizing his sides more often than not and is a proven world class coach. Which doesn't mean he can't lose and lose badly from time to time.
On the other hand he's also not some random lucky dude who tells 11 world class players to go out and play. He clearly knows what he is doing, is capable of organizing his sides more often than not and is a proven world class coach. Which doesn't mean he can't lose and lose badly from time to time.
I think there's just too few examples to make any sort of judgement like you say, how often does a manager leave a "more of the same" requirement. In fact how often does a manager leave a club in a strong position? It's rare.
As for Pep and LVG comparisons, it's not that they are the same, because they most definitely are not, it's just that in footballing terms Pep is a natural successor to LVG because they have similar methods although I think they have different ideals.
We're on different pages with Klopp, I'm yet to be convinced that he will be a success under different circumstances and in a different league. His only experience is in Germany (and Europe of course). He's another manager who failed because of his ideals and lack of pragmatism. Twice.
I think there's a good chance Pep could get fired if he doesn't win the Champions league this year. If not at the end of this season, definitely and the end of the next season. Which means there could be him and Klopp available while we still have a manager. Bad news all round.
@Balu how likely is that the Bayern board decide to sack Pep if Porto knock Bayern out?
SAF was in that same situation a couple of times in his career. Would you consider that as a relative failure?
His achievements in a much more competitive league far surpass Pep strolling to the Bundesliga.
With that said though, many have said it and I'm sure he would agree privately, his 2 wins in 26 years is a disappointing record.
After 99 we strolled to another 2 league titles in a row and not a lot else. Pep's basically in the same situation no?
Total overreaction as usual.
Firstly, Bayern will most likely turn Porto over at home. Even if they don't, why do people expect perfection? Bayern have no divine right to win every game they play at the top level. There are lots of very good players in all the teams left in the competition and any side can beat another on a given day.
We live in a world where some people try to denigrate Mourinho's record because he has gone W, SF, SF, SR in the competition in the past few seasons. It is ridiculous.
Firstly, Bayern will most likely turn Porto over at home. Even if they don't, why do people expect perfection? Bayern have no divine right to win every game they play at the top level. There are lots of very good players in all the teams left in the competition and any side can beat another on a given day.
We live in a world where some people try to denigrate Mourinho's record because he has gone W, SF, SF, SR in the competition in the past few seasons. It is ridiculous.
- Status