Next Labour leader - Starmer and Rayner win

Adisa said:
Whether we like it or not, Momentum are big players in the Labour party. The last thing we need is another war.
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Completely disagree. We have just been given a good kicking by the electorate. Listen to those Labour voters who defected to the Tories. If Momentum continue to control the Labour Party and try to force outdated policies and outdated leaders then there is only one outcome. And it will not be pretty.
 
Redlambs said:
Blindly? That's ironic. They've had how many years now? It's clearly not working, how much longer do you make excuses for these people? It's not the policies, it's clearly the people behind them.




So we just give up then?

For christ sake it's about time people grew some balls and started looking for ways to combat the media. In an ever increasing online world without the need as much for traditional media, surely Labour need a real strategy apart from just letting it happen? That and a leader who when on camera in their own words can actually communicate their point. The media aren't going anywhere, but they are changing. Labour need a strategy to deal with them, in a more effective level.

The alternative is more of this shit.
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I agree, plenty can be done to combat the media. We need Alastair Campbell doing what he did best. All these attacks on JC, Dianne Abbot - when did Labour ever take anyone to court? Sue anyone? They became soft targets. It's only in the last 2 weeks of the election did I see labour ads online and labour activists online protecting the party or talking about it's policies. What is the momentum troll farm doing?

Comments sections influence opinion, they could build a software looking for labour stories or comments on websites, which would then "like" pro-labour posts, clear it's cookies, go back, do it again. Ensure the top comments are regularly pro-labour ones. It's not hard to do.

There are pro-labour papers, pro labour journalists, why weren't they "encouraged".

The anti semetisim thing was a shitshow. Everyone knew from day 1 that they had to bend over backwards to prove it wasn't institutional, because it was more about slurring labour and less about real anti semetism. Instead they went on the defensive!

Most importantly though - the policies just weren't there. The country is xenophobic, you have to pander to them, just until you get into power.
 
2mufc0 said:
This is why we need the younger progressive Labour members to stay, they have the skillset to combat the media through social media. Despite labour's loss I thought their campaign videos etc were very good.
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I can get with this. But the leadership all round has to change. Labour need to get with the times and have an actual plan.


Adisa said:
Whether we like it or not, Momentum are big players in the Labour party. The last thing we need is another war.
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Sadly, it's inevitable imo.
 
2mufc0 said:
This is why we need the younger progressive Labour members to stay, they have the skillset to combat the media through social media. Despite labour's loss I thought their campaign videos etc were very good.
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Labour took this approach and it didn't work that well. Part of the reason for this is because in social media people form echo chambers. People tend to seek out views that support them. The AI's on twitter and stuff target posts at you which they think you relate too.
 
Buster15 said:
Completely disagree. We have just been given a good kicking by the electorate. Listen to those Labour voters who defected to the Tories. If Momentum continue to control the Labour Party and try to force outdated policies and outdated leaders then there is only one outcome. And it will not be pretty.
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You misunderstand me. I am not saying Starmer will be controlled by Momentum. Don't even think they fancy him. He's not a Socialist. But he has enough credibility to keep the onside or relatively quiet at the least.
 
It doesn't matter who the next Labour leader is. This country will never ever be able to elect a Labour government again after Boris bulldozes through the proposed boundary changes. Their majority would have been in the 140s if it was fought on the proposed boundary changes. Its over for Labour, they blew it.
 
Ultimate Grib said:
It doesn't matter who the next Labour leader is. This country will never ever be able to elect a Labour government again after Boris bulldozes through the proposed boundary changes. Their majority would have been in the 140s if it was fought on the proposed boundary changes. Its over for Labour, they blew it.
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I'm sure it felt the same under Thatcher. These things change.
 
711 said:
I've been impressed by Phillips and Rayner, they both have character, which has been sadly missing from Labour in recent years.
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Like somebody else said I think Rayner would get destroyed by the media for her background, so I wonder how wise it would be. I think Philips is good on the backbench and protesting but I wonder how well she could do as a leader when the dynamics involved would inevitably change.
 
esmufc07 said:
Like somebody else said I think Rayner would get destroyed by the media for her background, so I wonder how wise it would be. I think Philips is good on the backbench and protesting but I wonder how well she could do as a leader when the dynamics involved would inevitably change.
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What background?
 
Labour perhaps need to tailor their brand of socialism to one that puts the country first, a sort of "national socialism" if you will. That should appeal to the mentality of many Brits.
 
Adisa said:
You misunderstand me. I am not saying Starmer will be controlled by Momentum. Don't even think they fancy him. He's not a Socialist. But he has enough credibility to keep the onside or relatively quiet at the least.
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My apology for that.
But as a life long Labour member and voter, we have got to change direction and change direction urgently.
Some people dislike New Labour. But the facts speak for themselves. This country rejects hard left politics.

Now. I certainly do rate Starmer. But. He will always be associated with Remain and like it or not, remain policies have been rejected as well.
 
horsechoker said:
Labour perhaps need to tailor their brand of socialism to one that puts the country first, a sort of "national socialism" if you will. That should appeal to the mentality of many Brits.
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National Socialism means one thing to many people. People with long memories...
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I'm sure it felt the same under Thatcher. These things change.
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It took 18 years with Thatcher and will take a lot more at the state Labour is in. They are resigned to the fact that it took 18 years to get rid of Thatcher and are "happy" to play the long game. If that's the case for me personally I'll be in my 50s and my chidren will have just finished school trying to start life in what would likely be a broken country. Its way too long to wait.

horsechoker said:
Labour perhaps need to tailor their brand of socialism to one that puts the country first, a sort of "national socialism" if you will. That should appeal to the mentality of many Brits.
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Are you seriously suggesting Nazism or is it a joke?
 
esmufc07 said:
Also I've just rejoined.
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Unless they change the system, I'll just pay as a registered supporter to cast my vote without being a member. If they do something vaguely sensible after that I'll rejoin, but I don't expect them too so I'm not signing up just yet.
 
Redlambs said:
Blindly? That's ironic. They've had how many years now? It's clearly not working, how much longer do you make excuses for these people? It's not the policies, it's clearly the people behind them.




So we just give up then?

For christ sake it's about time people grew some balls and started looking for ways to combat the media. In an ever increasing online world without the need as much for traditional media, surely Labour need a real strategy apart from just letting it happen? That and a leader who when on camera in their own words can actually communicate their point. The media aren't going anywhere, but they are changing. Labour need a strategy to deal with them, in a more effective level.

The alternative is more of this shit.
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The only way to combat it is to go the new Labour route and jump into bed with them and their interests. It's as simple as that, I'm not interested in selling out Britain in a Labour power grab.
 
EwanI Ted said:
Unless they change the system, I'll just pay as a registered supporter to cast my vote without being a member. If they do something vaguely sensible after that I'll rejoin, but I don't expect them too so I'm not signing up just yet.
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If Momentum maintain their control, as they probably will, then I'll leave again, but you can't really complain unless you try and do something about it.
 
Raven said:
The only way to combat it is to go the new Labour route and jump into bed with them and their interests. It's as simple as that, I'm not interested in selling out Britain in a Labour power grab.
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So there's no other way to combat the effects of an ever decreasing written media or the BBc?

I don't believe that for a second. And even if that were true, it still doesn't explain Corbyn's utter inability to both defend himself and orate properly on live TV.

Nah, I'm not having New Labour is the only answer.
 
Zlatattack said:
I agree, plenty can be done to combat the media. We need Alastair Campbell doing what he did best. All these attacks on JC, Dianne Abbot - when did Labour ever take anyone to court? Sue anyone? They became soft targets. It's only in the last 2 weeks of the election did I see labour ads online and labour activists online protecting the party or talking about it's policies. What is the momentum troll farm doing?

Comments sections influence opinion, they could build a software looking for labour stories or comments on websites, which would then "like" pro-labour posts, clear it's cookies, go back, do it again. Ensure the top comments are regularly pro-labour ones. It's not hard to do.

There are pro-labour papers, pro labour journalists, why weren't they "encouraged".

The anti semetisim thing was a shitshow. Everyone knew from day 1 that they had to bend over backwards to prove it wasn't institutional, because it was more about slurring labour and less about real anti semetism. Instead they went on the defensive!

Most importantly though - the policies just weren't there. The country is xenophobic, you have to pander to them, just until you get into power.
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It sounds like you could earn a lot of money working for the Russians. Seriously, think of your future.
 
horsechoker said:
Labour perhaps need to tailor their brand of socialism to one that puts the country first, a sort of "national socialism" if you will. That should appeal to the mentality of many Brits.
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Feck that.
I will never vote for a party that panders to xenophobia or nationalism...never.
 
Zlatattack said:
Most importantly though - the policies just weren't there. The country is xenophobic, you have to pander to them, just until you get into power.
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Sad but true. Go check out the comments under Katie Hopkins vile twitter feed today to get a taste of the new Tory voters. Not just the usual Tommy Robinson mob either.
 
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711 said:
It sounds like you could earn a lot of money working for the Russians. Seriously, think of your future.
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I just tried it, it works. Known about this for years, I bet they already do it. The AI to find suitable comments is harder to program, but not impossible.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
Sad but true. Go check out the comments under Katie Hopkins vile twitter feed today to get a taste of the new Tory voters. Not just the usual Tommy Robinson mob either.
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See I don’t think this is an entirely new phenomenon. But rather that the current climate, particularly the comments made by the PM about certain groups, has given these people a platform to proudly voice these disturbing views where they previously would have suppressed them. It’s a worrying trend that’s been happening across the democratic world.

I hope the people who were disturbed by the anti semitism allegations have the stomach for the kind of rhetoric that will creep into the mainstream with this Tory iteration in government.
 
Redlambs said:
Blindly? That's ironic. They've had how many years now? It's clearly not working, how much longer do you make excuses for these people? It's not the policies, it's clearly the people.
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And these same people came to be because they were drawn to these policies. Their failure to convince the nation to follow suit is indeed a damning one, but thats not to say we should throw away all the enthusiasm and energy they’ve amassed over the years because Corbyn had miserably failed to entice voters. By the same token you may as well suggest sodding the moderate core because of Brown and Milliband’s respective failures in 2010 and 2015 as well as the dramatic Lib Dem collapse.

All I’m suggesting is to rally the party around a broad centre-left agenda, but that would mean involving the likes of momentum, not exiling them out of existence.
 
Corbyn was way out of his depth but the problem remains - how do you get Labour’s main two pillars of support on board (the big cities and the post-industrial Midlands and North) while the Tories are cynically pursuing a culture war to attract the latter? The same problem the Dems have against Trump.
 
Kaos said:
And these same people came to be because they were drawn to these policies. Their failure to convince the nation to follow suit is indeed a damning one, but thats not to say we should throw away all the enthusiasm and energy they’ve amassed over the years because Corbyn had miserably failed to entice voters. By the same token you may as well suggest sodding the moderate core because of Brown and Milliband’s respective failures in 2010 and 2015 as well as the dramatic Lib Dem collapse.

All I’m suggesting is to rally the party around a broad centre-left agenda, but that would mean involving the likes of momentum, not exiling them out of existence.
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Fair. And I'm not suggesting kicking them and their ideas out completely, they should just no longer be in control and picking the leader.

They've lost, the only way forward is to accept that and work towards a unified rethink.

But honestly mate, do you see them doing that? It's far more likely they'll stick with the Brexit/Media narrative after all, nearly all of them have already done that straight out of the gates. It's depressing.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
The most electable is probably Dan Jarvis. Former British Army Officer. Parachute Regiment. MBE. Served in Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq. Former Mayor of Sheffield. MP for Barnsley. 47 years old. Lost his first wife to cancer. Born in Nottingham. Went to comprehensive school.

No idea if he's any good or not. And he has no chance with the current Labour membership, being a centrist and member of Labour Friends of Israel.
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Jarvis strikes me as the sort of name to people who actually follow politics insofar as I'd imagine he's fairly unknown to the wider population at this time since he's been quite quiet for a lot of Corbyn's time in power. Although that doesn't necessarily rule him out - Corbyn was hardly a renowned name back in 2015.
 
ThierryHenry said:
Starmer seems the obvious choice, and clearly would bring back the ‘polish’ that the party has badly lacked in the Ed and Corbyn years.

It’s too early to say though. These elections are typically horrid, bloody things. Starmer could easily be 2019’s David Miliband or Andy Burnham.
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I think the fact that Starmer stood by Corbyn for the most part and wasn't trying to undermine him constantly like Watson or Phillips will stand him in good stead - he seems to genuinely be quite well-liked by the grassroots of the party, and was also a solid anti-Brexit voice as well. Probably their best option going forward.
 
Quoted from the GE thread:

esmufc07 said:
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This would actually be vaguely positive for Labour if in any way accurate. The hugely unpopular leader is about to leave and the Brexit factor should be somewhat neutralised as a result of Remain now being stone dead.
 
Cheesy said:
I think the fact that Starmer stood by Corbyn for the most part and wasn't trying to undermine him constantly like Watson or Phillips will stand him in good stead - he seems to genuinely be quite well-liked by the grassroots of the party, and was also a solid anti-Brexit voice as well. Probably their best option going forward.
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I'd agree with this. I think the left of the membership would be happy to back a candidate outside of Corbyn's close circle with a couple of provisos;

1. Demonstrably popular left-wing policies aren't scrapped out of hand - rail, utilities and Royal Mail are all doable and popular.

2. It isn't someone who clearly had it in for Corbyn and the people who elected him from day one.

Starmer would certainly be my preferred choice. Those advocating Phillips are as far into a centrist echo chamber as some Labour folks were into a Corbyn one - she has an incredible talent for rubbing people up the wrong way.

Having said that, I do worry that one of the Corbyn inner-circle will run away with it and we'll be back to square one with the media narrative, and antagonism between the party factions etc.
 
Starmer has no charisma, and as much as I'd like to say that shouldn't matter, it does.
 
sullydnl said:
Quoted from the GE thread:



This would actually be vaguely positive for Labour if in any way accurate. The hugely unpopular leader is about to leave and the Brexit factor should be somewhat neutralised as a result of Remain now being stone dead.
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I truly think the competency of the party and leadership is the core reason for failure over the last four years. 2017 was a mirage caused by the worst campaign from one of the 'big two' that I've ever seen.

Corbynites blaming 'Brexit' as if the party's actions have been external/independent of the Brexit process since 2016 is stupid as well. Corbyn's Labour has failed repeatedly over Brexit on both sides of the remain/leave divide, winning over no-one. Even if you believe that the policy of a new deal that no-one was claiming to back was clear, easy for candidates to explain and could please both leave and remain voters... the actions of Corbyn from 2016-2019 meant that it was already too late.

And on your point, even in the best case scenario, with Brexit and the leadership no longer problems at the next election, it's still a huge ask for the party to come back over one term. The new electoral map is a mountain to climb, will likely take at least two parliaments to win it back, even for an effective leader.
 
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