I’m convinced he’s an actual idiot. What a fecking tool.
Next Labour leader - Starmer and Rayner win
- Thread starter Kaos
- Start date
I’m convinced he’s an actual idiot. What a fecking tool.
I think it is more down to Labour voters becoming disillusioned under the Blair years. And Labours vote share dropping while Tony Blair was in power. Even in many of these constituencies within the "red wall" it dropped by 15% in some cases during that period.
Also the fact that many of the centrist MP's within Labour have been sniping at the current leadership for 4 years. This undoubtedly made Labour less appealing to voters. Many of those same MPs are not still getting the knives out and not accepting any personal responsibility. They are politicking just as much as the likes of Johnson did to get his way in the Tory party.
If centrism was the way to go then the Lib Dems would've done much better. Ironically it was the strategic error of going for a second referendum (which was a call from Labours centrists) combined with Corbyns lack of popularity (which was not helped by the constant sniping by the way).
Labour's leave support had collapsed before they made the decision to go for a second referendum though. It was already too late at that point and there was no good option left to them really. Had they not shifted position it's unlikely the outcome would have been much different.
Good thread explaining the damage to Labour was done long before they settled on their atrocious Brexit position.
Also conveniently ignoring the fact that Corbyn was fiercely campaigning for an election for the best part of two years but then spent the early part of Johnson's tenure desperately trying to block one whilst thwarting every attempt Johnson made to progress his Brexit plans.
Corbyn and his team allowed Johnson to frame them as the enemy of Brexit, with or without a second referendum policy.
A hard left Labour is an unappealing narrow sect. They don't appeal to their traditional base and can't without radically changing their image and they don't appeal to the moderates. Regrettably for them those are the two factions they need to win over if they are ever to ever achieve a majority.
I think I'll vote for Starmer. I don't see how the hard left can block my voting rights given my past membership with the party. Ideally he should get the likes of Clive Lewis and Dan Jarvis in the shadow cabinet to erase that image of the party being unpatriotic. I think there needs to be strong northern working class representation in the shadow cabinet too, Lisa Nandy in particular as she backed respecting the referendum. They need to accept Brexit and drop any remain narrative but hold the government to account at every opportunity in cases of mismanagement around the Brexit process. I think we need to hear rhetoric about 'respecting the will of the British people' etc and a positive message about the future of Britain, emphasising our strengths and so on.
Yes yes yes, centre is dead, lib dems, Corbyn was mistreated...and on and on.
It's the same thing over and over.
Just more blame and no looking to the future. That's Labour's single biggest problem right now, look at them all go at it. Fact is they failed and failed hard. People who are responsible on both sides need fecking off, and fresh faces take over to build on the good policies and ideals and do away with all the fluff around it.
But that's not going to happen, certainly not with both sides continuing to point fingers.
For all the hyperbole, Labour had a working majority from those of a working age. I'm all for the next campaign being less radical but the votes are there for Labour in the future. Given the clock on climate change I'm thankful of this at least.
Every time I hear Burnham on the radio he does really well at controlling the narrative and drives home simple, clear messages. A bit like Farage but in all the right ways. What is it that's stopping or holding him back from a leadership push that I don't know about?
Yvette Cooper raised a couple of decent points on the Today program this morning. How do you appear patriotic but outward looking? It's clear this is going to be a problem if they don't find the right person to deliver the right message. It's great that Labour seems to have locked down the young, educated & multicultural demographics but it's abundantly clear that's not enough to win an election. I guess I fall in to that group and the way I see it is that Labour needs to change to win to deliver policies that will see more people better off and if that means taking (or appearing to) a harder line on immigration and crime etc, then I think it's something that needs to be done.
Yvette Cooper raised a couple of decent points on the Today program this morning. How do you appear patriotic but outward looking? It's clear this is going to be a problem if they don't find the right person to deliver the right message. It's great that Labour seems to have locked down the young, educated & multicultural demographics but it's abundantly clear that's not enough to win an election. I guess I fall in to that group and the way I see it is that Labour needs to change to win to deliver policies that will see more people better off and if that means taking (or appearing to) a harder line on immigration and crime etc, then I think it's something that needs to be done.
I think hyperbole is a strong word considering we've heard all that before (2017) and the manner of this defeat. It's hard to look at it any other way than just hope and little substance right now.
I think Burnham is genuinely happy being Mayor of Manchester. He could do that job for 20 years.
You don't have to appear patriotic as such, there's no need to go around beating chests and so on.
For one drop virtue signalling policies like teaching kids about the crimes of the British Empire. Give a more prominent role to the likes of Clive Lewis and Dan Jarvis, an ex soldier and special forces commander respectively. And just carry a more positive message about the country rather than appearing to be a party that wants to reeducate the country on how Britain has been a negative force in the world. In short, don't appear unpatriotic and have some insurance against accusations to the contrary.
Don't think Andy Burnham can run as a serving mayor can he?
dont think so - think it has to be an MP ... though I guess if the NEC wanted they could change this.
But as it stands i think Burnham, D. Milliband, Khan, Watson and Pidcock would all be ruled out as not MP's
But as it stands i think Burnham, D. Milliband, Khan, Watson and Pidcock would all be ruled out as not MP's
Sadiq Khan has already ruled himself out as I believe
Tory Trolls have already started their attacks on Starmer.
Nothing of the sort.
The Labour defeat was down to 2 things.
Corbyn ineptitude including his perceived communist beliefs.
And the disastrous policy on Brexit.
Let's not blame someone who won 3 elections for the party. Because that is simply rediculous.
Has anyone seen Blair's piece on the election loss on Sky news 'labour was marooned on fantasy island'? , I genuinely worry that he is absolutely right.
The country needs a strong central Labour and I worry that they are going to continue down this path. They were an impossible vote for anyone not completely on the left. iv just cut and pasted some of the article here
Mr Blair described Labour's general election campaign as a "combination of misguided ideology and terminal ineptitude" and claimed it was a "cardinal error" for current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn to have ever agreed to the election.
Labour "pursued a path of almost comic indecision" on Brexit that alienated both Leave supporters and Remain supporters, the party's former leader said.
He told an audience he was not criticising Mr Corbyn "as a person", but said the Labour leader's political ethos - which he described as "quasi-revolutionary socialism" - has "never appealed to traditional Labour voters" and "never will appeal".
He added: "The takeover of the Labour Party by the far left turned it into a glorified protest movement with cult trimmings, utterly incapable of being a credible government."
The country needs a strong central Labour and I worry that they are going to continue down this path. They were an impossible vote for anyone not completely on the left. iv just cut and pasted some of the article here
Mr Blair described Labour's general election campaign as a "combination of misguided ideology and terminal ineptitude" and claimed it was a "cardinal error" for current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn to have ever agreed to the election.
Labour "pursued a path of almost comic indecision" on Brexit that alienated both Leave supporters and Remain supporters, the party's former leader said.
He told an audience he was not criticising Mr Corbyn "as a person", but said the Labour leader's political ethos - which he described as "quasi-revolutionary socialism" - has "never appealed to traditional Labour voters" and "never will appeal".
He added: "The takeover of the Labour Party by the far left turned it into a glorified protest movement with cult trimmings, utterly incapable of being a credible government."
Meh John McDonald started publicly briefing against him days ago
Next leader must be a woman from outside London etc
I think it was probably down to more than 2 things... but certainly the two you mention are major factors and id go so far as to agree that they would be the main two
that said there was plenty of warnings that the brexit policy would bleed support from both remain and leave and that in the supposed northern strongholds the corbyn brand was toxic
Yeah not aimed at Starmer at all...
I never said anything about McDonnell. I was more talking about the attacks Starmer will face from a virulent right wing press and that its already started. Not sure why you are so intent on deflecting.
It was pretty well known before the election that the preference from the Labour left for the next leader be a woman anyway. I'm sure he's not a big fan of Starmer anyway given they hid him away during the election.
Agreed.
In my experience, a significant proportion of the British electorate are conservative (with a small c) by nature. This is especially true of the more experienced voters.
They have lived through the 1970's and remember the nationalised companies, unions and strikes and blame the loss of manufacturing down to that.
They do not want or support many of the left wing policies put forward by the Labour party.
To win many of them back, we need a shift in policy toward the centre ground, especially as the Tories have vacated that.
And of course a new leader who they can believe in and vote for.
There is no centre ground, because centre ground is compromise and that is wrong.
Or something.
(also blah blah blah lib dems being proof. Despite them always being shit, apparantly now it matters
)
Or something.
(also blah blah blah lib dems being proof. Despite them always being shit, apparantly now it matters
)Honestly I think Keir Starmer might get my vote. Clearly the public rejected Corbyn socialist approach and maybe someone with Starmer appeal can win over the public, as well as bring the party together during this difficult time.
Politicians personal wealth gets mentioned on all sides, I've definitely read articles about Cameron, Hunt and Hammond's personal wealth as well as Boris's earnings. The difference is the Conservative party are relaxed about people being wealthy, whereas if a Labour leader is too personally wealthy they can be open to the charge of hypocrisy.
Yeah you're spot on which is why you can't directly compare a Conservative leader to a Labour leader in that respect. The mentions on personal wealth are more extreme on the latter and the accusations of "Champagne Socialist" will there whenever they propose any left leaning idea.
Yeah, amazing how this 'it must be a woman' stance never came about before. Seems very disingenuous, to be honest.
Only from idiots who don't understand what hypocrisy is or do and are disengenuous. Saying you want to tax high earners more doesn't become hypocritical if you are a high earner.
Its came up a number of times before, going back as far as 2017(It really started after Theresa May won the tory leadership race.)
Are they saying there's an electoral advantage to having a woman as leader in the same way there might be to having a northerner, for example? Or are they just saying it needs to be a woman based on general principle?
More the principle I think. My personal theory is that having a woman or ethnic minority leader is an electoral disadvantage for Labour, while it isn't so much for the Conservatives. Reason being that a Tory woman or minority leader is more likely to be seen as "one of the good ones" by all the shy (and not so shy) bigots. That doesn't mean we shouldn't give it a go, and Lisa Nandy would be a strong candidate who also ticks a few boxes.
Considering the conservatives have won straight elections with a Londoner, a woman and a clown, I think it's rather funny (and by that I mean incredibly sad) Labour think it's about that at all.
Labour: our new party leader is Jesus Christ
Everyone else: Labour elect dangerous middle-eastern immigrant who thinks he's the son of God.
Everyone else: Labour elect dangerous middle-eastern immigrant who thinks he's the son of God.
While its absolutely true to say that falling working class/rising middle class vote started in the New Labour era, its almost a decade now since the New Labour era ended. If we're going to blame to Blair and co for not predicting the long term impact of their changes to the party, then Miliband and Corbyn need to take some blame too, since they watched it happen yet failed to respond. After all, there was no shortage of analysis in the aftermath of the 2010, 2015 and 2017 General Elections pointing out that Labour was losing the working class vote and that the heartlands were turning away from them. In particular, the much discussed paper Revolt on the Left by Rob Ford and Matt Goodwin looks extremely prophetic at this point in time.
Milliband gambled that the UKIP surge would hurt the Tories not Labour. Corbyn gambled that the Tories would eat themselves over Brexit so Labour should stand back, watch it happen & reap the rewards. Both turned out to be major misjudgements based on an analysis of the situation that was flawed & combined to create the election result we've just had.
Both of them thought that economics was the problem in these areas, and that Labour's better and fairer economics would therefore solve them. And in some senses they're right, the financial crash and auterity certainly drove dissatisfaction in these areas. But it manifested itself in a culture of a distrust of social liberals (exacerbated by the fact that Cameron and Clegg appeared to fit this mould too). So when Labour put up first Ed Miliband, a social liberal from London, and then Corbyn, the ultimate London social liberal, no-one should be surprised that they were roundly distrusted by socially conservative voters.
This also points towards why Labour ruling out a second ref would probably have made little difference. It would be like Milband's Controls On Immigration mugs - not enough to undo 10+ years of erroding trust, but certain to inflame current Labour activists. By the time the election arrived Labour was indeed on the horns of a dilemma, as McDonnell put it. But it arrived in that place as a result of years of bad decisions. Nothing they could do in the final few months could undo that.
Pfff, as if Labour would elect a jew.
Fine BBC trolling with this top story and accompanying picture.
But someone like Kier Starmer is (I imagine) no longer earning as much as he did when he was a lawyer (and bought his lovely houses). If someone like Kier proposes taxes on wealth as well as earnings, then fine. If just earnings there is a sense of pulling up the ladder once you've already climbed up.
Completely agree with your analysis. The conservatives are basically a coalition of people who want power, its not a very ideological party, so they will almost always get their act together with a message that can be sold come election time. Therefore the Labour party can never rely on the Tories shooting themselves in the foot, as most of the time they won't.
Blair realised this, and was constantly aggressive regarding Labour's positioning and message.
This article from the guardian in 2012 is worth reflecting on while we think about how to win back the traditional base:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/jun/05/why-working-class-people-vote-conservative
I think its central premise is right that those of us on the left often mistakenly think economics and helping the vulnerable is all people should care about.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/jun/05/why-working-class-people-vote-conservative
I think its central premise is right that those of us on the left often mistakenly think economics and helping the vulnerable is all people should care about.