There you go, that should work.
I'd be very interested in doing a draft like this. Maybe after a more traditional/sheep draft, we could try this out.
Next Draft - Ideas and Discussions
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
I'd be very interested in doing a draft like this. Maybe after a more traditional/sheep draft, we could try this out.
The two teams draft seems interesting but you'd want a pretty wide pool for it.
I've been thinking about how to implement injuries mid game to spice up the matches. Here's my proposal.
Everyone gives each of their players a squad number. Then a random number generator for both teams with 44 numbers in it (this provides a 1/4 of a chance for an injury). If the top number corresponds with a player number on the pitch they go off injured (I may make keepers immune but haven't though how to integrate this yet). This is communicated to the managers via PM after kick off with which players are injured or not. They then send tactical tweaks/ subs to update the thread eight hours or so in (so the changes are at 30 mins) - the fun here is working out what your opponent might do so you can change accordingly. After this another random number generator takes place in the same format via PM and the last update at 16 hrs. This should mathematically on average yield one injury per game. What could be fun is if someone cocks up their starting line-up so loads of changes it could happen they end up playing the last 30 mins with 10 men. This would probably work best if we kept the max number of subs to two.
Given the time that elapses is 8 hr windows it should be easier to administrate than at 12 hrs. Also whoever communicates to the players via PM could also ask around who'll be on when the update comes so it shouldn't be that much work.
Thoughts anyone? @harms @Chesterlestreet
I've been thinking about how to implement injuries mid game to spice up the matches. Here's my proposal.
Everyone gives each of their players a squad number. Then a random number generator for both teams with 44 numbers in it (this provides a 1/4 of a chance for an injury). If the top number corresponds with a player number on the pitch they go off injured (I may make keepers immune but haven't though how to integrate this yet). This is communicated to the managers via PM after kick off with which players are injured or not. They then send tactical tweaks/ subs to update the thread eight hours or so in (so the changes are at 30 mins) - the fun here is working out what your opponent might do so you can change accordingly. After this another random number generator takes place in the same format via PM and the last update at 16 hrs. This should mathematically on average yield one injury per game. What could be fun is if someone cocks up their starting line-up so loads of changes it could happen they end up playing the last 30 mins with 10 men. This would probably work best if we kept the max number of subs to two.
Given the time that elapses is 8 hr windows it should be easier to administrate than at 12 hrs. Also whoever communicates to the players via PM could also ask around who'll be on when the update comes so it shouldn't be that much work.
Thoughts anyone? @harms @Chesterlestreet
Yeah that would work. Think it would suit the random/luck-based drafts a bit more than the standard fare.
I don't think it's that random as you can respond to it if you play your cards right and it rewards the drafting of versatile players. You could only ever have a bench of three with two subs even in later rounds to prevent picking from a huge amount of options
I suppose it depends on what we're seeking to achieve. If it's to shake the tree to create a bit of chaos, it fits with the spirit of the random based drafts more. If it's to test the manager's tactical response, flexibility and anticipation, then it is more widely applicable to different drafts. It would also be a good way of making use out of the 14-man squads - subs currently are little more than decoration for the dugout.
That might be, but then the counter would be this: If we end up with something (a bit too) familiar anyway, why not scrap a number of matches that simply aren't that interesting?
It depends on the pool, though, as stated above: If you're looking at a situation where a number of non-obvious/interesting picks are spread across the board, then it makes sense to have a full knockout stage. If, on the other hand, it's an all-time theme - well, it makes less sense: If you're going to have Maldini-on-Garrincha scenarios all over the place, then limit the number of matches (since the actual discussion won't be all that interesting).
22 rounds of drafting will be exhausting, though?
The speed bits of this draft have moved st it'd take over a month
and two legs as well.
Probably 12 hrs polls if there are 2 legs and you submit both first and second team so that it can be started directly after the first?
IMO would be better as it will keep the dynamics to some extend and 12 hrs are probably enough to get a decent scoreline for both legs.
@Chesterlestreet Any thoughts on my in game injury idea?
It does seem to require a bit more time as you need to confirm participation for some rounds and make the picks so essentially you go through the process twice. A regular snake would probably be the best in 22 player squad.
If the idea is to get 22 players, then you may have 2 players per pick at the end of the process.
Nice idea. So, is it likely to urge the voters to change their votes in order to take into account the impact of injuries on the tactical systems?
Yes, what I was thinking as well. Beyond Round 10 or so it would have to be increased to 2 players per pick.
Yep that's the idea. However for those with less time to read the entire match thread they will likely vote primarily on the opening line-ups. The way I've set it up should mean 8 hours straight with no changes at all until full-time which should give plenty of time for voting.
It would revive a game in the sense that managers are generally active in the 8 first hours so why not to experiment this in the future?
It would revive a game in the sense that managers are generally active in the 8 first hours so why not to experiment this in the future?
I thinking of using it in the 67-87 draft if that gets enough interest along with keepers breaking ties. If the keepers are of the same tier, just a randomiser to see who wins.
I know some prefer 57-87 for obvious reasons but maybe could we try 67-97 in order to include 7-8 guys?
Here's my reasoning for the 67-87 DOB if you missed it before:
The way I see it there are broadly four eras of football. Pre-war (2-3-5, WM etc), post-war until the mid 70s (424, 3232 relatively tactically naive), mid 70s to early 90s which heralded tight defenses, sweepers etc) then the mid 90s until now (relaxed offside rule, more protection for forwards, more attacking game).
I then looked at diffferent birth dates as it makes it much cleaner to draft rather than saying only performances in the 1950s etc. I started by wanting Di Stefano in with Pele's pool so initially started in '26 but it missed Djalma Santos amongst others. I then looked at say the Brazil 82 side and Platini's France's 84 side amongst others to decide where the age dates should be cut off. I had then a hard look at Laudrup, Romario and Sacchi's Milan plus Baggio and Batigol to determine where the next line fit. I then realised that a standard 21 year gap made sense and was uniform. I don't want to go past '87 as it is relatively difficult to rate players who have not completed most of their bulk career- if we were to do a draft with young players I'd prefer it to be a specific youth players draft. Players who are born in '87 will be at their youngest 29 so they've had a lot their career to fairly rate them (plus Messi had to make the birth date cut). The players born in '57 really belong in the mid 70s to early 90s period.
I still need to decide if I can make time for the next draft as a participant, but if not, I'd be willing to be the assistant running the draft to help keep things moving along. I think we are in different time zones so that would work (I am Pacific).
Also if I wasn't in the draft and I have time I'd be willing to make "Onenil Style" retro team sheets for anyone that wanted.
Help with setting up matches and running injury randomisation plus mid-game changes is always appreciated
I'd love to do a current players draft at some stage.
Simple rules. Must still be playing. Go.
Simple rules. Must still be playing. Go.
I want to be part of the next draft
do we know the next draft? physio idea?
Has to be an even turn. That would give the bottom of the snake first dibs on paired picks which somehwat makes up for going last in R1 (Always preferred 10-13, mind).
Btw, hadn't read all this injury malarkey. Guess we will see how it pans out here with the reds.
Was hoping it would be an opportunity for managers to display some skill. So far all I see is moaning though.
Was hoping it would be an opportunity for managers to display some skill. So far all I see is moaning though.
How do the reds work in the Vegas draft?
@Šjor Bepo
I'm up for running the 67-87 draft. Voting will be like it is at present but keepers will break ties. If the keepers are even then a coin toss. I also want to trial injuries to spruce the match threads up with a three man bench (so when you have later squads you'll again only be able to name a three man bench) from which you can make a maximum of two subs. I'm thinking also that if you get a player injured in game, he is also missing for the next one which could make reinforcements a little more interesting.
I'm up for running the 67-87 draft. Voting will be like it is at present but keepers will break ties. If the keepers are even then a coin toss. I also want to trial injuries to spruce the match threads up with a three man bench (so when you have later squads you'll again only be able to name a three man bench) from which you can make a maximum of two subs. I'm thinking also that if you get a player injured in game, he is also missing for the next one which could make reinforcements a little more interesting.
i just made a flyby over the thread so maybe it was mentioned, think i saw antohan mentioning it....regarding the injuries and bans, would be cool if some players had bigger risk of an injury or a ban. Montero was mentioned, if you have that type in your squad you have a higher chance of getting him banned, if you have a Jack Wilshere in your squad you have a higher chance of him getting injured etc.
It's certainly an interesting idea but if with the red cards we can at least dig up the stats (even if it's only after 1970 and the rare occasions when send offs were documented earlier), with injuries you'd have no chance of "researching" the player and figuring out a possibility of an injury for every player.
I did think of trying to make more players injury prone. The best way would be a three tiered system - super-human (Lampard), Normal (Scholes) and Sick Note (Darren Anderton). It could also be a lot of work for neutrals to decide which tier to put them in. Another issue with injuries is players like Giggs. Would we say that he would be more injury prone if you chose the flying-winger version than the older version?
I think keep the injuries simple to begin with and see how they work and then try and make them more sophisticated later.
I'm up for that. Like the injury idea, particularly if it's something that happens in-game (eg after 60 minutes or 16 hours).
Gauging interest for the next draft. Here's my revised draft rules.
Rules
The reasoning behind the dates was trying to get as many of the GOATs together who played in a definable era so easy comparisons could be made.
Following the initial drafting a vote will be taken to determine who wins the Best Drafter Award. Each manager will rank the top three squads that he think were drafted the best (excluding his own). Three points will be assigned to 1st place, two points for 2nd place and one point for 3rd place. These will be sent to a neutral who will then reveal the results.
To spruce up match threads there will be in game injuries which will test a managers tactical response. Here's how they will work:
To make the above work you will always have to name a three man bench (even if you have a huge squad by the final) and can make a maximum of two subs per game. Also, any players injured in game will be injured for the following game too.
Voting will be done on a win/lose basis with the score being kept hidden until you vote but you can change your vote given the fact there will hopefully be some in game changes. In the event of a draw whoever has the best keeper will win. A neutral committee will rank the keepers in three tiers. So keepers like Banks would be tier 1 and the fat sheep guy from the pre-war era would be tier three. The team with the highest tier keeper wins. If they are even whoever is more highly ranked on the best drafter vote will win. In the event of a tie here, there will be a simple coin toss by the random number generator.
Tactics for the OP will be limited to 2500 characters to be used how the managers see fit (it may make sense then to link to player profiles in the main draft thread). If it's any longer the match starter should just cut off the OP at 2500 characters.
Reinforcements for the quarters will be the reverse snake and thereafter lamb style. No-one from picks 1 and 2 can ever be used as a reinforcement. Due to potential injuries all reinforcement rounds will be double pick rounds.
Important : successfully drafted players will be announced after each drafting round unlike Sheep Drafting. So the managers going into the second/third attempt will know which players have been picked. Now, A and B have to submit again for the same criteria as their second attempt etc. Shane Warne though will still be eligible for picking in round 2 and 3 of reinforcement drafting; he is only blocked in the round where more than one drafter picks him.
The purpose of this system is to avoid the occasional advantage to the drafter with the first pick for reinforcements, normally where there is one stand out player and whoever goes first picks him. Reinforcement drafting after quarters will be double pick rounds. If you're successful with one but fail with the other, then you just pick a single player in the next drafting reinforcement round.
So who's in?
Rules
- The draft will be snake for any players born between the 1st January 1967 and 31st December 1987 (inclusive).
- Snake-Style: The teams will be put in a random order then the first on the list gets first pick going down to 16 but then drafter 16 gets two picks then drafter 15 picks working back up the snake until we've finished all the squads.
- Initial squads will be formed of 14 players
- The only limitation is that none of the starting 11 can ever have played with each other at club or international level (the subs however can have played with one of the other starting 11 but can only be used as a sub if he replaces the player he played with, and obviously never played with anyone else).
'Played together at club level' will be defined as sharing at least one season with another player at the same club (unless they were injured and did not play any games during that season); if they did not move prior to the start of the league season e.g 15/16, they will have shared the season 14/15 as well as 15/16. They do not need to have been on the same pitch at the same time.
'Played together at international level' will be defined as being in the same squad for a major tournament; again they need not have been on the pitch at the same time nor on the pitch at all. If they played together but were not in any of the competitions below they can both be picked and be played together in the same draft side.
Major Tournaments include only the following:
The World Cup (1930-2014)
The Euros (1960-2012)
Copa America (1916-2015)
African Cup of Nations (1957-2015)
The Asian Cup (1956-2015)
The OFC (1973-2012)
'Played together at international level' will be defined as being in the same squad for a major tournament; again they need not have been on the pitch at the same time nor on the pitch at all. If they played together but were not in any of the competitions below they can both be picked and be played together in the same draft side.
Major Tournaments include only the following:
The World Cup (1930-2014)
The Euros (1960-2012)
Copa America (1916-2015)
African Cup of Nations (1957-2015)
The Asian Cup (1956-2015)
The OFC (1973-2012)
The reasoning behind the dates was trying to get as many of the GOATs together who played in a definable era so easy comparisons could be made.
The way I see it there are broadly four eras of football. Pre-war (2-3-5, WM etc), post-war until the mid 70s (424, 3232 relatively tactically naive), mid 70s to early 90s which heralded tight defenses, sweepers etc) then the mid 90s until now (relaxed offside rule, more protection for forwards, more attacking game).
I then looked at diffferent birth dates as it makes it much cleaner to draft rather than saying only performances in the 1950s etc. I started by wanting Di Stefano in with Pele's pool so initially started in '26 but it missed Djalma Santos amongst others. I then looked at say the Brazil 82 side and Platini's France's 84 side amongst others to decide where the age dates should be cut off. I had then a hard look at Laudrup, Romario and Sacchi's Milan plus Baggio and Batigol to determine where the next line fit. I then realised that a standard 21 year gap made sense and was uniform. I don't want to go past '87 as it is relatively difficult to rate players who have not completed most of their bulk career- if we were to do a draft with young players I'd prefer it to be a specific youth players draft. Players who are born in '87 will be at their youngest 29 so they've had a lot their career to fairly rate them (plus Messi had to make the birth date cut). The players born in '57 really belong in the mid 70s to early 90s period.
I then looked at diffferent birth dates as it makes it much cleaner to draft rather than saying only performances in the 1950s etc. I started by wanting Di Stefano in with Pele's pool so initially started in '26 but it missed Djalma Santos amongst others. I then looked at say the Brazil 82 side and Platini's France's 84 side amongst others to decide where the age dates should be cut off. I had then a hard look at Laudrup, Romario and Sacchi's Milan plus Baggio and Batigol to determine where the next line fit. I then realised that a standard 21 year gap made sense and was uniform. I don't want to go past '87 as it is relatively difficult to rate players who have not completed most of their bulk career- if we were to do a draft with young players I'd prefer it to be a specific youth players draft. Players who are born in '87 will be at their youngest 29 so they've had a lot their career to fairly rate them (plus Messi had to make the birth date cut). The players born in '57 really belong in the mid 70s to early 90s period.
Following the initial drafting a vote will be taken to determine who wins the Best Drafter Award. Each manager will rank the top three squads that he think were drafted the best (excluding his own). Three points will be assigned to 1st place, two points for 2nd place and one point for 3rd place. These will be sent to a neutral who will then reveal the results.
To spruce up match threads there will be in game injuries which will test a managers tactical response. Here's how they will work:
Everyone gives each of their players a squad number. Then a random number generator for both teams with the numbers in it 2 to 41 (this provides a 1/4 of a chance for an injury). If the top number corresponds with a player number on the pitch they go off injured (Keepers cannot be injured so ). This is communicated to the managers via PM after kick off with which players are injured or not. They then send tactical tweaks/ subs to update the thread eight hours or so in (so the changes are at 30 mins) - the fun here is working out what your opponent might do so you can change accordingly. After this another random number generator takes place in the same format via PM and the last update at 16 hrs. This should mathematically on average yield one injury per game. What could be fun is if someone cocks up their starting line-up so makes a lot of changes it could happen they end up playing the last 30 mins with 10 men.
To make the above work you will always have to name a three man bench (even if you have a huge squad by the final) and can make a maximum of two subs per game. Also, any players injured in game will be injured for the following game too.
Voting will be done on a win/lose basis with the score being kept hidden until you vote but you can change your vote given the fact there will hopefully be some in game changes. In the event of a draw whoever has the best keeper will win. A neutral committee will rank the keepers in three tiers. So keepers like Banks would be tier 1 and the fat sheep guy from the pre-war era would be tier three. The team with the highest tier keeper wins. If they are even whoever is more highly ranked on the best drafter vote will win. In the event of a tie here, there will be a simple coin toss by the random number generator.
Tactics for the OP will be limited to 2500 characters to be used how the managers see fit (it may make sense then to link to player profiles in the main draft thread). If it's any longer the match starter should just cut off the OP at 2500 characters.
Reinforcements for the quarters will be the reverse snake and thereafter lamb style. No-one from picks 1 and 2 can ever be used as a reinforcement. Due to potential injuries all reinforcement rounds will be double pick rounds.
Deadlines-
Pick 1 - 24 hours (after the final game of the round is concluded)
Pick 2 - 12 hours
Pick 3 - 12 hours
No changing of picks once submitted.
Let's say A, B, C, D and E are playing the draft.
All 5 managers PM a neutral with their picks as follows (cricket examples):
Pick 1 :
A : Shane Warne, Steve Waugh
B : Shane Warne, Ricky Ponting
C : Don Bradman, Shane Warne
D : Viv Richards, Gary Sobers
E : Malcolm Marshall, WG Grace
According to the rules, A and B don't get any players and their picks fail. C, D and E successfully sign their players. So, at the end of the deadline someone will post something like this :
Results of Round 1, Pick 1 :
A : Fail, Steve Waugh
B : Fail, Ricky Ponting,
C : Don Bradman, Fail
D : Viv Richards, Gary Sobers
E : Malcolm Marshall, WG Grace
Pick 1 - 24 hours (after the final game of the round is concluded)
Pick 2 - 12 hours
Pick 3 - 12 hours
No changing of picks once submitted.
Let's say A, B, C, D and E are playing the draft.
All 5 managers PM a neutral with their picks as follows (cricket examples):
Pick 1 :
A : Shane Warne, Steve Waugh
B : Shane Warne, Ricky Ponting
C : Don Bradman, Shane Warne
D : Viv Richards, Gary Sobers
E : Malcolm Marshall, WG Grace
According to the rules, A and B don't get any players and their picks fail. C, D and E successfully sign their players. So, at the end of the deadline someone will post something like this :
Results of Round 1, Pick 1 :
A : Fail, Steve Waugh
B : Fail, Ricky Ponting,
C : Don Bradman, Fail
D : Viv Richards, Gary Sobers
E : Malcolm Marshall, WG Grace
Important : successfully drafted players will be announced after each drafting round unlike Sheep Drafting. So the managers going into the second/third attempt will know which players have been picked. Now, A and B have to submit again for the same criteria as their second attempt etc. Shane Warne though will still be eligible for picking in round 2 and 3 of reinforcement drafting; he is only blocked in the round where more than one drafter picks him.
The purpose of this system is to avoid the occasional advantage to the drafter with the first pick for reinforcements, normally where there is one stand out player and whoever goes first picks him. Reinforcement drafting after quarters will be double pick rounds. If you're successful with one but fail with the other, then you just pick a single player in the next drafting reinforcement round.
So who's in?
That looks great @Physiocrat , Count me in.
In.
67-87 DRAFT
1. Tuppet
2. Aldo
3. Downcast
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
AM List:
1. Tuppet
2. Aldo
3. Downcast
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
AM List:
@Physiocrat, what does Shane Warne have to do with it all?
Sounds good, I'll give it a shot as the snake format is quite manageable.
Also, forget the tiers for keepers, just have 3-4 neutrals rank them and give them 16 points for the best, 15 for second, etc. Then add and you have the rank to settle draws.
Sounds good, I'll give it a shot as the snake format is quite manageable.
Also, forget the tiers for keepers, just have 3-4 neutrals rank them and give them 16 points for the best, 15 for second, etc. Then add and you have the rank to settle draws.
67-87 DRAFT
1. Tuppet
2. Aldo
3. Downcast
4. Antohan
5.
6.
7.
8.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
AM List:
1. Tuppet
2. Aldo
3. Downcast
4. Antohan
5.
6.
7.
8.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
AM List: