I think we've had 3 auction drafts so far - an all-time, a post-1970, and a British/Irish all-time. Auction doesn't really lend itself towards smaller pools IMO and in any case the more niche the pool naturally the fewer voters who will get involved. That said, you don't necessarily want to simply repeat what's gone before.
Next Draft - Ideas and Discussions
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
I'm interested in getting on the next draft. Wanted to play an auction draft for quite a while aswell.
What do we think of @Chesterlestreet 's idea of putting the poll up later in the match to encourage voters to read the thread first rather than just vote? I think it has merit although you'd still get quick fire votes when the post has been added but I think it's worth a shout - you could put it up with 12 hours to go.
On a related note any subs or tactically changes should be converted into normal match times. So if a change is made after 6 hours the sub should be noted as being changed at 23 mins to give readers a better feel of how the change would effect the game.
I like Aldo's tactics template as it is very clear how the team plays and is short. We need short OP's - walls of text of player profiles are annoying. I also think a mandatory guess of the formation and line-up of the opposing team should be in the OP. In many cases it will make little differences but tactical curve balls need to be recognised. I did it in my game against Bepo but no-one noticed.
I like the idea of a moderator but it would be a lot of work for the draft master. So I reckon as a group contributors to the threads should call out the managers when it is becoming repetitive. If they fail to stop then contributors can then tag he draft master who could in principle give a default win to one of the sides. Also I think in general encouraging posters to pose questions to the managers (and tagging them) about specific points should be encouraged.
I also think that bringing back winning by 1, 2 or 3 goals would add an element of realism again (it makes feel better that everyone thinks I'd only lose 2-1).
Goalkeepers need a shakeup. The only way to do this I think is to give them an advantage on penalties. I also think increasing the options to Left Upper, Left Ground, Centre, Right Upper, Right Ground will give a greater air of realism and allow more room to make a difference with the keepers.
@Marty1968 I think had the idea of getting posters to vote on which keeper was best although to give much of an advantage to Schmeichel over Chilavert would be unfair. I reckon a three tiered ranking of the goalkeepers from a neutral committee be created after initial drafting. For keepers in the third tier they have to keep with the managers direction (we should submit 8 guesses in the event sudden death will happen). For 2nd tier keepers we can use randomiser and put in LU, LG, C, RU, RG fifteen times. If the initial managers choice was C but randomiser says LG and it is it is then saved. For tier one do randomiser again so these keepers have say C, C, RG giving them a much greater chance of saving them. I think this will work and shouldn't take too much work.
We should really sort these issues out before the next draft.
On a related note any subs or tactically changes should be converted into normal match times. So if a change is made after 6 hours the sub should be noted as being changed at 23 mins to give readers a better feel of how the change would effect the game.
I like Aldo's tactics template as it is very clear how the team plays and is short. We need short OP's - walls of text of player profiles are annoying. I also think a mandatory guess of the formation and line-up of the opposing team should be in the OP. In many cases it will make little differences but tactical curve balls need to be recognised. I did it in my game against Bepo but no-one noticed.
I like the idea of a moderator but it would be a lot of work for the draft master. So I reckon as a group contributors to the threads should call out the managers when it is becoming repetitive. If they fail to stop then contributors can then tag he draft master who could in principle give a default win to one of the sides. Also I think in general encouraging posters to pose questions to the managers (and tagging them) about specific points should be encouraged.
I also think that bringing back winning by 1, 2 or 3 goals would add an element of realism again (it makes feel better that everyone thinks I'd only lose 2-1).
Goalkeepers need a shakeup. The only way to do this I think is to give them an advantage on penalties. I also think increasing the options to Left Upper, Left Ground, Centre, Right Upper, Right Ground will give a greater air of realism and allow more room to make a difference with the keepers.
@Marty1968 I think had the idea of getting posters to vote on which keeper was best although to give much of an advantage to Schmeichel over Chilavert would be unfair. I reckon a three tiered ranking of the goalkeepers from a neutral committee be created after initial drafting. For keepers in the third tier they have to keep with the managers direction (we should submit 8 guesses in the event sudden death will happen). For 2nd tier keepers we can use randomiser and put in LU, LG, C, RU, RG fifteen times. If the initial managers choice was C but randomiser says LG and it is it is then saved. For tier one do randomiser again so these keepers have say C, C, RG giving them a much greater chance of saving them. I think this will work and shouldn't take too much work.
We should really sort these issues out before the next draft.
My idea on the keeper issue was fairly straight forward. Have a poll in the match thread (if you can have two different polls in the match thread that is). The second poll is for people to vote who has the best keeper in that particular match. That keeper then gets an advantage if it goes to pens. Very similar to your idea above (where the best keeper would get a 33% better chance of saving in your example). In mine it would just be left/right/centre and for the better keeper you just remove the 'centre' option so the team taking pens only has a choice of two. Keeper therefore has a 50% chance of saving.
Great post Physio and a fine starter for debate.
A common thread through this is some form of sub-committee in support of any new draft (much like the Sheep Committee role - but expanded). Inevitably there are always a few folk who know their shit but aren't taking part and would be keen to help guide things along, such as through ranking the keepers or managing the match thread debate.
I'd be supportive of trying this out. Although I wouldn't want to create something which allowed managers to make a brainfart, make an early change and get away with it - even more so because the voting isn't open yet. One of the earlier suggestions was to disallow any tactical or personnel changes in the first half (12 hours). In reality they rarely happen, yet in drafts they happen all the time.
Absolutely.
As it stands a really strong OP will have anticipated the opposition's tactical approach and outlined its counter arguments - so I'm not sure how much added value can be gained by prescribing that. Agree on short OPs. To be honest I rarely read anything that isn't to the point and usually just go with the formation graphic. Again I'm not sure if listing out each player's 'role' necessarily achieves the short-and-sharp objective, but very much agreed on the principle of 'less is more'.
Agreed.
This does need to be sorted before the next draft. We need to identify some sort of mechanism to increase their value. Increasing their chances of saving a penalty through a three-tier split is something I support. Obviously there has to be a reasonable likelihood of a draw happening in the first place for that to be meaningful. So this bit cannot be done in isolation from any changes to the scoring system.
A common thread through this is some form of sub-committee in support of any new draft (much like the Sheep Committee role - but expanded). Inevitably there are always a few folk who know their shit but aren't taking part and would be keen to help guide things along, such as through ranking the keepers or managing the match thread debate.
@Gio what about giving votes based on goal keepers? For example, if someone has a tier 1 GK vs a tier 3 GK, the first poster gains a two votes advantage. Would mirror real life as well where having a world class goalie can save points in a loads of matches.
Good idea.
Banning changes to half-time is a good call and we could integrate it with adding the poll after 12 hours. The only thing to be wary of is to make it crystal clear what the first half line-ups were like as scan voters may just see the new line-ups and not punish the manager as appropriate.
I'm not too wedded to the, guess the oppositions line-up however it does raise the question of what should go in the OP. I think the player roles is useful to see exactly what the manager is planning and it also helps with players you don't know as well.
If the only way with keepers is penalties we'll have to keep it as who will win (no score lines) otherwise penalties are very, very unlikely. May be we could encourage posters to say why they think a certain team will win but also add a suggested scoreline. For aesthetic purposes this would be an improvement.
What do you think of the specific method with regards pens? I also seem to remember you thought you should have five options rather than just three for the penalty options.
Interesting call. It would be an elegant solution, penalties aren't a great way of doing things. Would there be a way of integrating it with a win by 1,2 or 3 goals scoring system? The best I can think of is to give them two 1-0 votes as it is benefit for defensive rather than offensive prowess.
In case of draw, then it makes sense to reward the team whose GK is better based on a poll.
Next step is to list all the potential themes:
- South-America
- Eastern Countries
- Reserve Reserve Draft
- Auction Draft
- Sheep Draft
- ....
In the last pages, other ideas were suggested.
Then we need to have a consensus by the end of the month.
Next step is to list all the potential themes:
- South-America
- Eastern Countries
- Reserve Reserve Draft
- Auction Draft
- Sheep Draft
- ....
In the last pages, other ideas were suggested.
Then we need to have a consensus by the end of the month.
Reality draft(think that was the name), didnt play it but heard it was brilliant so we should play it again 
Would love an auction draft, preferably with a more expansive theme, so as to potentially stir up more interest.
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Yeah that's a nice spin on it. Good call @MJJ.
Any other thoughts on banning changes until effectively half-time and then putting the poll in then? @Theon @Joga Bonito @MJJ @Invictus @Šjor Bepo
As for themes for new drafts. We could do an era draft. The idea is to have an all-time element but reduce the issues of comparing across to diverse of eras. So we could do a modern era of anyone born between 1960 and 1989, a classic era of those born between 1920 and 1959 then finally a pre-war era (Anyone born in the 1910s or before). We could though split the 50s in half if the players better fitted a different era. Have some blocks, and country restrictions and it could be an interesting draft.
As for themes for new drafts. We could do an era draft. The idea is to have an all-time element but reduce the issues of comparing across to diverse of eras. So we could do a modern era of anyone born between 1960 and 1989, a classic era of those born between 1920 and 1959 then finally a pre-war era (Anyone born in the 1910s or before). We could though split the 50s in half if the players better fitted a different era. Have some blocks, and country restrictions and it could be an interesting draft.
+ 1 that or some sort of criteria draft would be awesome.Reality draft(think that was the name), didnt play it but heard it was brilliant so we should play it again
Yeah, I think that would be grand.
Cheers.
Can have some issues with timezones(mod and the player) but I suppose if we start at 12 it should be okay for most. I like aldo's(I think it was aldo) suggestion of having a moderator that asks a few questions of each player and direct conversation to an extent.
I also share this concern because it's very hard to compare the credentials of a player of the 50s with another one of the 2010s.
On the contrary, much more easier to compare a player of the 80s against one of the 2010s or one of the 60s.
Chester if I remember correctly and I echo this too.
Ah okay, it helps with the match threads turning completely shit as well. Have gotten tired of both sides just underrating each other's players or sticking to one agenda. A mod will help make the discussions (slightly) better again.
There was also Balu's idea of giving a fix quota of "tactical posts" for each manger, where he can discuss opposition team or how their own players are superior etc.
Problem with that is that it will limit discussions and the likes of @Joga Bonito @Invictus will just start writing 10,000 words posts
Problem with that is that it will limit discussions and the likes of @Joga Bonito @Invictus will just start writing 10,000 words posts
. Think a moderator should be enough for curtailing the repetition of the same tedious points between managers, and also potentially cool down arguments if need be.We could do it after 8 hours instead so it would effectively be a change before half-time and may not have as many time zone issues.
Not sure if this is the right place to put this but would like to register my interest at playing in the next draft .
I'd like to tentatively register my interest too.
Am willing to give it a shot.
Me too
Interested as assistant
So what draft do we want to go for? I'm out for the next one as I'm examining for some A-level papers and trying to do that whilst drafting would probably mean low quality marking but top quality drafting.
As I mentioned earlier, I will be taking a bit of a break from the drafts. For now, I'll just be a spectator from the sidelines, but I may come back sooner than later.
we need to start a new draft because @Invictus and me played almost every possible draft via PM and frankly, we are out of ideas....
Retired.Good idea
Just throwing this out there for the next draft idea, after discussions with @Balu
Simple premise really, each team gets assigned a tactical set-up (catenaccio, Brazilian 4-2-4, total footballing 4-3-3 etc) and they have to assemble a side fitting the tactical brief of their respective set-ups. The player DOB cut off date would be players born after 1975 with Ronaldo and Messi blocked.
Ultimately the challenge is to recreate your set-up as best as possible with an 'alien' player pool and pay tribute to historically great and influential classic systems as best as you can. Having 'new' players in that set-up makes it more interesting and decreases the ease of recreating the set-up, and also opens up the scope of potential discussions etc. Goes without saying that whilst a balance between tactical fit and personnel quality should be maintained, tactical chemistry takes precedence given the theme of the draft. So try your best not to use controversial players/features which isn't staying true to your set-up, unless you have a really great case for the said move. There will be a draft committee overseeing proceeding to minimise such occurrences.
Thought the drafts have been a bit dull with the same old 4-3-3 & 4-2-3-1s and with the same overblown emphasis on individual battles (something which I'm guilty of too), so maybe this could freshen it up a bit from a tactical perspective. And also be educational, hopefully.
So yeah, it's kind of like the manager draft, but just harder to execute in terms of personnel. The fundamentals and the core ideology of the set-up should remain intact and only the personnel fits are left to the manager's interpretation. No tactical tweaks/variations allowed.
To reiterate, the tactical set-up and the player fits, chemistry etc have to be at the fore here. Needless to say, player quality does matter but lesser than the usual drafts.
List of tactical set-ups (not confirmed yet and subject to change)
1) Catenaccio - Inter Milan 1965/Helenio Herrera (1-3-4-2)
2) Dutch Total Football - Holland 1974/Rinus Michels (4-3-3)
3) Zona Mista - Juventus 1984/Giovanni Trapattoni (Lop-sided 4-4-2)
4) Ajax 1995 - LVG (3-3-1-3)
5) Dream Team - Barcelona 1992/Cruyff (3-4-3)
6) AC Milan 1989 - Sacchi (4-4-2)
7) Metodo - Italy 1934/Pozzo (2-3-2-3)
8) Brazil 1958 - Feola (4-2-4)
9) Germany 1972 - Helmut Schön (4-3-3)
10) Wingless wonders - England 1966/Sir Alf Ramsey (4-1-3-2)
11) Austrian Wunderteam - Austria 1932/Meisl (2-3-5)
12) Germany 1990 - Beckenbauer (3-5-2)
13) Mighty Magyars - Hungary 1954/Sebes (3-2-1-4)
14) Brazil 1982 - Tele Santana (4-2-2-2)
15) WM - Arsenal 1931/Chapman (3-2-2-3)
16) La Maquina River 1941 - Renato Cesarini (2-3-5)
Certain tactics are easier to execute (4-4-2) but perhaps harder to strike perfection with. So yeah, keep an open mind and also, whilst it might be harder to execute certain tactics, the pay-off would also be significantly higher.
Modern systems such as Simeone's 4-4-2, Guardiola's tiki-taka, Toppmöller's Dortmund tactics, Fergie's 4-4-2 have been left out due to clashing with the timeline of the player pool - thus increasing the recreation ability of said tactical set-up etc.
The write-up would preferably be really tactical and less player descriptive with the same template for each manager
Write-Up Template (pending modification)
Philosophy/Ideology of tactical set-up
...
Style - Possession/counter attacking/Wing-Play/Flank overload/etc
Defense
Defensive Line - Deep/Normal/High
Marking - Zonal/Man-marking/offside-trap/custom (man-marking CBs & a sweeper) etc
Off the ball - Aggressive closing down/standing off/tucking in defenders to form compact defense etc
On the ball - Build up Play/Rapid transitions through sweeper/Basic & risk-free passing to midfield etc
Midfield
...
Attack
...
Player Roles
...
Specific Tactical Manoeuvres
Diagrams, gifs or in depth explanations of certain moves - wing-men swapping/false 9 dropping deep to form triangles/wide midfielder tucking in etc
Simple premise really, each team gets assigned a tactical set-up (catenaccio, Brazilian 4-2-4, total footballing 4-3-3 etc) and they have to assemble a side fitting the tactical brief of their respective set-ups. The player DOB cut off date would be players born after 1975 with Ronaldo and Messi blocked.
Ultimately the challenge is to recreate your set-up as best as possible with an 'alien' player pool and pay tribute to historically great and influential classic systems as best as you can. Having 'new' players in that set-up makes it more interesting and decreases the ease of recreating the set-up, and also opens up the scope of potential discussions etc. Goes without saying that whilst a balance between tactical fit and personnel quality should be maintained, tactical chemistry takes precedence given the theme of the draft. So try your best not to use controversial players/features which isn't staying true to your set-up, unless you have a really great case for the said move. There will be a draft committee overseeing proceeding to minimise such occurrences.
Thought the drafts have been a bit dull with the same old 4-3-3 & 4-2-3-1s and with the same overblown emphasis on individual battles (something which I'm guilty of too), so maybe this could freshen it up a bit from a tactical perspective. And also be educational, hopefully.
So yeah, it's kind of like the manager draft, but just harder to execute in terms of personnel. The fundamentals and the core ideology of the set-up should remain intact and only the personnel fits are left to the manager's interpretation. No tactical tweaks/variations allowed.
To reiterate, the tactical set-up and the player fits, chemistry etc have to be at the fore here. Needless to say, player quality does matter but lesser than the usual drafts.
List of tactical set-ups (not confirmed yet and subject to change)
1) Catenaccio - Inter Milan 1965/Helenio Herrera (1-3-4-2)
2) Dutch Total Football - Holland 1974/Rinus Michels (4-3-3)
3) Zona Mista - Juventus 1984/Giovanni Trapattoni (Lop-sided 4-4-2)
4) Ajax 1995 - LVG (3-3-1-3)
5) Dream Team - Barcelona 1992/Cruyff (3-4-3)
6) AC Milan 1989 - Sacchi (4-4-2)
7) Metodo - Italy 1934/Pozzo (2-3-2-3)
8) Brazil 1958 - Feola (4-2-4)
9) Germany 1972 - Helmut Schön (4-3-3)
10) Wingless wonders - England 1966/Sir Alf Ramsey (4-1-3-2)
11) Austrian Wunderteam - Austria 1932/Meisl (2-3-5)
12) Germany 1990 - Beckenbauer (3-5-2)
13) Mighty Magyars - Hungary 1954/Sebes (3-2-1-4)
14) Brazil 1982 - Tele Santana (4-2-2-2)
15) WM - Arsenal 1931/Chapman (3-2-2-3)
16) La Maquina River 1941 - Renato Cesarini (2-3-5)
Certain tactics are easier to execute (4-4-2) but perhaps harder to strike perfection with. So yeah, keep an open mind and also, whilst it might be harder to execute certain tactics, the pay-off would also be significantly higher.
Modern systems such as Simeone's 4-4-2, Guardiola's tiki-taka, Toppmöller's Dortmund tactics, Fergie's 4-4-2 have been left out due to clashing with the timeline of the player pool - thus increasing the recreation ability of said tactical set-up etc.
The write-up would preferably be really tactical and less player descriptive with the same template for each manager
Write-Up Template (pending modification)
Philosophy/Ideology of tactical set-up
...
Style - Possession/counter attacking/Wing-Play/Flank overload/etc
Defense
Defensive Line - Deep/Normal/High
Marking - Zonal/Man-marking/offside-trap/custom (man-marking CBs & a sweeper) etc
Off the ball - Aggressive closing down/standing off/tucking in defenders to form compact defense etc
On the ball - Build up Play/Rapid transitions through sweeper/Basic & risk-free passing to midfield etc
Midfield
...
Attack
...
Player Roles
...
Specific Tactical Manoeuvres
Diagrams, gifs or in depth explanations of certain moves - wing-men swapping/false 9 dropping deep to form triangles/wide midfielder tucking in etc
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brilliant idea joga
btw think it would be better if we judge who created a better team ie. which squad is more suited to play that style rather then judge who would won a game between the two.
Love the idea @Joga Bonito
A couple of questions though: with the DOB cut off do you mean the players has to be born before or after 1975?
Also when you say the player can't have played in that system do you mean for example you can't recruit any of Sacchi's Milan to play in that system or have any players who have played in a similar set-up? My main thought here is Cruyff's Dream Team and a few of Bielsa's teams.
A couple of questions though: with the DOB cut off do you mean the players has to be born before or after 1975?
Also when you say the player can't have played in that system do you mean for example you can't recruit any of Sacchi's Milan to play in that system or have any players who have played in a similar set-up? My main thought here is Cruyff's Dream Team and a few of Bielsa's teams.
i think its with modern players so after 75.....modern players in "old" systems.
After. I think Joga's post is a bit of a mix of all the ideas we discussed. Essentially the idea is to rebuild specific tactics of former decades with modern players (born from January 1st 1975 onwards).
Originally we discussed the idea to pick 16 different teams with specific tactics, block all the players who played in these teams and then use the remaining pool of players (basically again all time or at least post-WWII) to rebuild the teams. If people prefer that, we can do it as well, but I think it would be more interesting to do it with modern players and tactics up to the 90's.