RIP
NBA 2022-2023
- Thread starter charlton66
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RIP
My dad still says he’s the best and he’d take him over Chamberlain.
RIP
People like to diminish Russel's achievements because the Celtics dominated so much and had other great players, but I read somewhere that Celtics didn't win at all before he was drafted and then didn't win again for a few years after he retired despite having many of the same players.
Probably more to it, but that shows his winning impact.
Probably more to it, but that shows his winning impact.
I've brought this up before, but I recently saw a piece put out by ESPN relating to the Warriors most recent Championship and Steph Curry's updated legacy because of this win.
There are now 7 players in NBA history who have multiple MVP awards, a finals MVP and at least 4 Championships. (I'm including *Bill Russell in this since there is no doubt he would have won at least one finals MVP if such an award existed while he was playing).
These 7 include LeBron, MJ, Magic, and Kareem probably the 4 on most people's Mount Rushmore of NBA players. The 5th is Tim Duncan, widely considered to be the greatest power forward of all time and number 6 (as I mentioned earlier) is Bill Russell, the greatest winner in the history of American sports.
All without doubt are top 10 players of all time.
Stephen Curry is the 7th.
*RIP Bill Russell one of the best basketball players of all time and from everything I've seen and read an even better human being.
RIP Bill.
There are now 7 players in NBA history who have multiple MVP awards, a finals MVP and at least 4 Championships. (I'm including *Bill Russell in this since there is no doubt he would have won at least one finals MVP if such an award existed while he was playing).
These 7 include LeBron, MJ, Magic, and Kareem probably the 4 on most people's Mount Rushmore of NBA players. The 5th is Tim Duncan, widely considered to be the greatest power forward of all time and number 6 (as I mentioned earlier) is Bill Russell, the greatest winner in the history of American sports.
All without doubt are top 10 players of all time.
Stephen Curry is the 7th.
*RIP Bill Russell one of the best basketball players of all time and from everything I've seen and read an even better human being.
RIP Bill.
RIP Bill Russell. A great man and a perpetual champion, who overcame tremendous hardship and racism, Oakland boy and USF hero. Legend
Steph is not ahead of Kobe. Defense matters and Kobe has the most all defensive teams of any guard in NBA history. One more mvp (which kobe was robbed of ) is not equal to one more ring, 12 all defensive teams and one more finals mvp.
I don't actually have Steph 7th all time in my pantheon of greats, I was just pointing out where he stood relative to others stat wise based on the video that ESPN put out.
As far as Kobe is concerned I do have Steph above him but it is close. I have Steph at 9th and Kobe at 10th.
My biggest knock on Kobe is that AT TIMES he was a really crap team mate who was extremely selfish and who brought himself down and his team down. The famous game 7 against the Suns in the 2006 playoffs comes to mind where he essentially refused to shoot the ball in order to prove a point costing the Lakers the series. That is just pettiness personified and to me is a huge strike against his legacy. Steph might be in his own words the "petty king" but he confines his pettiness to it either being off the court against the media or jabs on the court at the OTHER team to motivate his own squad.
I obviously think Kobe is an all time great and you're right that his defense was superior to Steph's but I cannot look past this particular intangible where you have one player who could be extremely selfish to the detriment of his team vs another who is in the conversation for possibly the greatest team mate of all time.
When all is considered that pushes Steph above Kobe for me.
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One intangible over impacting the other 50% of a basketball game at an all time elite level. His defense wasn't just superior to Stephs, he shits on Steph in a ridiculous way. It's like comparing Shaq to Kwame brown on offense. Kobe and Jordan are the two best guard defenders of all time. If you recognize that basketball is played on both ends then there is no objective argument to have Curry above Kobe. That's why those with that opinion have to resort to intangibles.
Kobe Bryant was a fine player but it really isnt one sided as you think. He is overhyped a bit because of his style & energy. The whole mamba stuff has created a narrative around him which makes him seem better than he was.
This crap about Steph being a crap defender is just that - crap. Yes, Kobe was a better defender than Steph but it's no coincidence that when the Dubs have won Championships their defense has been elite. When Curry started out he wasn't a great defender because he was undersized and weak. Numerous players on the Dubs have said he is now one of the strongest players on the team. In these latest playoffs teams still tried to pick on him. It didn't work. He'll never be as good as Kobe defensively but your Shaq/Kwame Brown analogy was ridiculous in the extreme. Steph is now a pretty good defender and an extremely good systems defender.
As to intangibles. Let's look at the facts instead.
Regular season.
Kobe FG% 44.7
Steph FG% 47.3
Kobe Assists/G 4.7
Steph.Assists/G 6.5
Kobe Rebounds/G 5.2
Steph Rebounds/G 4.6
Kobe PPG. 25.0
Steph PPG. 24.3
However, in the playoffs Steph is better in EVERY major category; FG% (45.2 to 44.8), assists (6.2 to 4.7), rebounds (5.4 to 5.1), PPG (26.6 to 25.6).
In the actual finals it is just as one sided. FG% (43.2 to 41.2), assists (6.0 to 5.1), rebounds (5.8 to 5.7) and PPG (27.3 to 25.3).
So no intangibles, just facts. Steph is better.
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When we were in school a guy who tried to pretend he knew everything about everything, but especially American things, tried to tell people Kwame Brown was Kobe Bryant’s nickname. When I pointed out he was full of shit he eventually tried to pretend privately that he was joking.
Kobe didn’t play much defense once Shaq left the Lakers because he was going all out on offense
He got loads of defensive team nominations purely from his reputation because he would occasionally take up a tough assignment once in a while to stop a player on a hot streak.
Kobe is an all time great defender as a guard, Steph is average at best.
Kobe has 11 all nba first teams to stephs 4
Kobe has 9 all nba first team defense to stephs 0
Kobe has 12 all defensive selections to stephs 0
Kobe has more points, rebounds and blocks per game.
Kobe has the longevity argument as well. More years at the top of the game. 10 more all star selections.
Steph has tiny percentage leads in some categories because the game is more offensive these days and because his career is still going on. A lot of his all time stats will come down once he's out of his prime just like they did for Kobe.
Steph is the best shooter ever and probably borderline top ten but his lack of impact on defense cannot be ignored. It's literally half the fecking game.
He was almost always the top perimeter defender the lakers had. Tell me when steph has ever had the burden of locking down an opponents best perimeter player and carrying the offense. Kobe did that for a decade plus.
Kobe coasted on defense for a huge part of his career because the offensive role took a huge effort out of him.
He was capable of having a highlight defensive stop every game, but the stats don’t lie. His defensive numbers are closer to T-Mac than MJ and if you think it’s just purely based off stats, even Phil Jackson said that Kobe was getting all defense accolades based off his earlier reputation as early as 2004.
And it’s not a coincidence that the Lakers have a trash defense when Kobe was their best defender and magically had a mean defense once they signed Artest.
Even if I grant you that Kobe coasted later in his career on defense, he's made top 5 DPOY three times. Something steph couldn't dream of doing.
So basically what you are telling me is that Kobe has the edge in all the categories that are voted on and Steph has the edge in all the categories where it matters and you actually have to do it on the court (playoff PPG, FG%, assists and rebounds).
I get it now!
kobe is not an "all time great defender"No I'm saying your boy is a shit defender and since that's half the game he's not top ten.
But don't take my word for it here are the stats:
ORB%
DRB%
TRB%
TOV%
USG%
OWS
DWS
VORP
All stats where Kobe is better than Steph. Let's see what Stephs numbers are when his career is over and how he looks when he's on the decline.
Can I just point out that the primary stats I've been using are playoff stats and finals stats. Kobe was 34 when he made the playoffs for the last time and 32 when he last made the finals. Steph is already 34 and still going strong, so he's already older than Kobe was at a comparable point in their careers.
As to your stats. When you've got to start using "advanced stats" to make a point instead of the basics; points, rebounds and assists, you know you're on a loser.
Up to this point you'd actually been doing quite well with your arguments and I was respecting your opinion even if I didn't agree with it, but when you keep telling me that Steph is a shit defender when he has been a part of so many elite defenses, I've got to start thinking that you either don't watch the Warriors much or you really don't know much about basketball. Since I'm a nice guy I'll choose to go with option 1 for the time being and just assume it was ignorance on your part rather than a total lack of knowledge.
That's the trouble with a lot of Kobe fans, they become abusive when their guy is remotely threatened. He's a great player. IMLTHO, he's a top 10 player of all time. As I said I have him 10th. I just think Steph is better.
RIP Bill Russell, the ultimate winner of NBA.
Possibly the best "Bill Russell" highlight that I've ever seen.
Possibly the best "Bill Russell" highlight that I've ever seen.
Not anymore he isn’t
Who was abusive? That's the problem with steph fans they get butthurt too easily. You do know kobe entered the league as a teenager right? So the fact that Steph is now 34 is irrelevant as he's logged way less minutes at the same age. I love how advanced stats makes me on to a loser but using basic stats makes you onto a winner. Kobe has higher offensive snd defensive win shares. He had a higher usage rate with less turnovers and he was the much better defender and a better rebounder. The advanced stats favor kobe even more in the playoffs.
You can think whatever you want, but most of your post is just waffle and poor arguments. I have steph borderline top ten so nothing against the wee fella.
My bad. He was a shit defender for most of his career and now has become average.*
Also sure steph has been a part of good/great defenses but don't lie to yourself and pretend he was a primary,secondary,tertiary reason for that. Kobe played with Dfish most of his career and would have to guard the harder match up. Curry plays with Klay Thompson who would have to do the same to ease the load on steph.
Alright if you want to use advanced stats let's go, but If you're going to use them at least do a fair comparison. Things like OWS, DWS and VORP are cumulative so the longer you play the higher your numbers are going to be. If you do WS/48 for each player which is a fairer comparison then Steph's is higher. As to your rebound percentages they are higher for Kobe in the regular season, higher for Steph in the playoffs. Why a higher USG% should be a plus I don't know, but if you're going to link it to turnovers at least do an assist/turnover ratio which is over 2 for Steph and slightly better than 1.5 for Kobe. In all honesty I would much rather have a higher TS% or PER which Steph has in spades. Does that about cover it?
Like I said, I have Steph higher, you have Kobe higher. Let's just agree to disagree.
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Kobe fanboys
He is not an all time great defender and he is neither an all-time floor raiser like Lebron or an all-time ceiling raiser like Steph.
He is a middle class man’s MJ, worse in every facet. Strictly worse than Shaq, Duncan and Steph who are all the greatest in some facet of the game and 2/3 changed the game.
He is not an all time great defender and he is neither an all-time floor raiser like Lebron or an all-time ceiling raiser like Steph.
He is a middle class man’s MJ, worse in every facet. Strictly worse than Shaq, Duncan and Steph who are all the greatest in some facet of the game and 2/3 changed the game.
You just beat the Celtics for us , we're friends buddy. Thinking about it in the past 20 years in courts all around the world, it's probably Kobe and Steph that kids/people are saying after making a shot more than any other player. People can have their opinions , it's all a part of sports.
Kobe fanboys
He is not an all time great defender and he is neither an all-time floor raiser like Lebron or an all-time ceiling raiser like Steph.
He is a middle class man’s MJ, worse in every facet. Strictly worse than Shaq, Duncan and Steph who are all the greatest in some facet of the game and 2/3 changed the game.
He's top 10 all time in everybody's list. Legend of the game, birthed an entire generation of ballers.
But according to one person, and then many of his followers, he played against plumbers and mailmen
I agree. All fans have got their opinions/biases. You're a Lakers fan, I'm a Dubs fan. We're going to stick up for our guys. If we didn't we wouldn't be fans.
To say that this post is laughable would be an understatement. Why on earth are you putting Kobe in the same sentence as Michael Jordan, defensively?:LOL: He isn't even within 3 tiers of Jordan in terms of defensive impact. Every advanced metric without fail has Jordan out of sight and has Kobe nowhere near him.
The difference between Kobe's defense and Steph's is much narrower than the superiority that Steph has above Kobe offensively.
You're using stats that you clearly do not understand
Usage rate does not indicate that you're a superior player, and Win shares and VORP are cumulative stats. When discussing winshares, people compare winshares/48 minutes and Curry - unsurprisingly - is far ahead of Kobe.| Season | Age | G | GS | MP | FG | FGA | FG% | 3P | 3PA | 3P% | eFG% | FT% | ORB | DRB | TRB | AST | STL | BLK | TOV | PF | PTS | |
| Curry | 826 | 820 | 34.3 | 8.3 | 17.6 | 0.473 | 3.8 | 8.8 | 0.428 | 0.581 | 0.908 | 0.7 | 4 | 4.6 | 6.5 | 1.7 | 0.2 | 3.1 | 2.4 | 24.3 | ||
| Kobe | 1346 | 1198 | 36.1 | 8.7 | 19.5 | 0.447 | 1.4 | 4.1 | 0.329 | 0.482 | 0.837 | 1.1 | 4.1 | 5.2 | 4.7 | 1.4 | 0.5 | 3 | 2.5 | 25 | ||
| Curry PO | 134 | 128 | 37.3 | 8.8 | 19.5 | 0.452 | 4.2 | 10.4 | 0.401 | 0.559 | 0.892 | 0.8 | 4.6 | 5.4 | 6.2 | 1.6 | 0.3 | 3.3 | 2.5 | 26.6 | ||
| Kobe PO | 220 | 200 | 39.3 | 9.2 | 20.5 | 0.448 | 1.3 | 4 | 0.331 | 0.48 | 0.816 | 1 | 4 | 5.1 | 4.7 | 1.4 | 0.7 | 2.9 | 3 | 25.6 | ||
| Season | Age | G | MP | PER | TS% | 3PAr | FTr | ORB% | DRB% | TRB% | AST% | STL% | BLK% | TOV% | USG% | WS/48 | OBPM | DBPM | BPM | VORP | Ortg | Dtg |
| Curry | 826 | 28361 | 23.8 | 0.624 | 0.502 | 0.242 | 2.2 | 12.3 | 7.4 | 31.4 | 2.4 | 0.5 | 13.9 | 28.7 | 0.203 | 6.1 | 0.4 | 6.5 | 60.9 | 118 | 107 | |
| Kobe | 1346 | 48637 | 22.9 | 0.55 | 0.212 | 0.382 | 3.5 | 12.7 | 8.1 | 24.2 | 2.1 | 1 | 11.6 | 31.8 | 0.17 | 4.6 | -0.1 | 4.6 | 80.1 | 110 | 105 | |
| Curry PO | 134 | 4999 | 23.2 | 0.608 | 0.535 | 0.277 | 2.3 | 13.3 | 8 | 28 | 2.1 | 0.7 | 13.2 | 29.7 | 0.195 | 6.4 | 0.6 | 7.1 | 11.4 | 117 | 108 | |
| Kobe PO | 220 | 8641 | 22.4 | 0.541 | 0.196 | 0.359 | 3 | 11.9 | 7.4 | 23.3 | 1.9 | 1.3 | 11 | 31 | 0.157 | 5 | 0.4 | 5.4 | 16.2 | 110 | 106 |
Here are their career stats. Curry pastes Kobe in career PER and peak PER for the regular season, playoffs, and finals. Does the same with win-share average in the regular season, playoffs, and finals. And - despite playing more than 500 fewer games - STILL leads Kobe in cumulative box score impact Plus-Minus.
In the finals:
| Finals | Kobe | Curry |
| PPG | 25.3243 | 27.3 |
| APG | 5.05405 | 6.0 |
| RPG | 5.7027 | 5.8 |
| ORPG | 1.05405 | 1.0 |
| SPG | 1.75676 | 1.6 |
| BPG | 0.89189 | 0.3 |
| TO/G | 3.32432 | 3.5 |
| TS % | 50.7% | 59.6% |
Steph is a much better finals performer (not so much because Steph has always been incredible in the finals , but because Kobe wet the bed in the biggest stage, time and time again).
Kobe's has 1 career finals 40 points game, a sub-50% FG performance against the 2009 Orlando Magic team that Lebron had just torched averaging 38.5ppg. Steph's peak in the finals include a 47 point game against Kawhi Leonard and a 43 point game against the 2022 Boston Celtics, that eclipse anything Kobe even dreamed of doing in the finals.
It isn't a comparison. Steph is objectively the better player, and the gap isn't narrow.
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Using FG% does a huge disservice to Steph because a much larger percentage of Steph's shots are 3's than Kobe's, and yet Curry leads even in simple FG%.
Their career TS% for the regular season, playoffs, and finals are as follows:
| TS% | Kobe | Steph |
| Reg Season | 55.0% | 62.4% |
| Playoffs | 54.1% | 60.8% |
| Finals | 50.7% | 59.6% |
They aren't even remotely comparable in terms of efficiency. Steph doesn't just average more points when it counts (playoffs and finals), he does so on a much higher efficiency, while dishing out more assists.
I keep seeing it mentioned and wondered if I was being totally blinkered. From memory he was a decent defender and an exceptional iso scorer but for some reason people are talking about him as if he was Garry Payton.
Yeah, he made all of his all-d-teams because of name and fame alone. The dick riding was real.
I agree, but if you'll notice in all my posts on this topic I tried to avoid mentioning 3 pointers or 3 point percentage since Steph is often minimized as just being a great 3 point shooter and nothing else. I was actually trying to prove a point by just sticking to the basics of FG%, points, assists and rebounds that everybody understands.
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Statistically, his season was his best and he coasted off of that for the rest of his career. He had a DBPM of 1.6 that season, and he never came close to hitting 1 again in his career. For comparisons sake, Jordan was doing 4s and 3s in his pomp, and Lebron wasn't far off when he was at his best, either.
Kobe's career DBPM is shockingly, negative, which is ridiculous considering we are discussing someone whose fans exalt as a transcendent defensive player.
Of course, the game changed a lot during Kobe's career. He was better in the days of lower scoring teams and more defense. In these days of 3-4 steps on the drive and no touching the guy with the ball, scoring is a little easier.
Thirty years passed since Dream Team, the best team ever!
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...m-that-may-have-been-the-greatest-of-all-time
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...m-that-may-have-been-the-greatest-of-all-time